Analyzing G/G and M/D Lillehammer programs

[Ares]

I only got tired of HFOS after the 30th time she kept skating to it.... lol

As for Bonaly/Sato, well, it was gymnastics on ice vs ice skating. Factor in the home crowd and Bonaly's messy landings, well, I didn't think it was all that close tbh. Another thing that I always say is you have to see a skater LIVE to be able to compare. Bonaly was herky jerky and Sato was smooth as silk. Sato skated with 'natural' speed while Bonaly was pumping those crossovers away.

I find Surya skating in competition unwatchable. I can barely make through her programs. So slow, clumsy and missing in the aesthetics - no actual transitions or lines - sorry. It's startling that Bonaly was able to perform all those jumps with little to no slide coming into. In double axel it was blatant.

 

[blue_idealist]

We should probably start a new thread for Dance, but I feel the Italians should have been 5th in both 2001 and 2002.

1998 Olympic Dance event is pretty crazy. I think it should have gone as:

...Compulsory 1..............Compulsory 2..............Original Dance..............Free Dance
1. Anissina/Peizerat......1. Krylov/Ovsykov....1. Krylov/Ovsykov.....1. Punsalan/Swallow
2. Krylov/Ovsykov.....2. Grishuk/Platov..... 2. Grishuk/Platov.......2. Bourne/Kraatz
3. Punsalan/Swallow.....3. Anissina/Peizerat......3. Anissina/Peizerat......3. Grishuk/Platov
4. Lobachev/Averbuk....4. Bourne/Kraatz..........4. Punsalan/Swallow.....4. Krylov/Ovsykov
5. Grishuk/Platov.......5. Lobachev/Averbuk....5. Lobachev/Averbuk....5. Anissina/Peizerat
6. Bourne/Kraatz..........6. Punsalan/Swallow.....6. Bourne/Kraatz..........6. Lobachev/Averbuk

Punsalan/Swallow were only placed 7th in the event but actually their Free Dance was by far the best, their Golden Waltz was very strong, their Original Dance was better than it was given credit for...with this ranking they would have won the competition, in a tie-breaker against Krylova/Ovsyannikov! What a stunning surprise that would have been. It's amazing how Punsalan/Swallow were able to pull off such a Free Dance, they never skated anywhere near that well in competition until that very moment.

Grishuk/Platov would be 3rd, Bourne/Kraatz in 4th (have to feel for them not getting a medal after the Free Dance, but their OD was poop and their compulsories lacking), Anissina/Peizerat in 5th (they started the competition amazingly and would be my pick to win if they skated their best, but they lost steam after that first dance and made too many errors), and then finally Lobacheva/Averbukh in 6th.

The most difficult thing to rank here, for me, is actually 4th and 5th place in the Original Dance between Punsalan/Swallow and Lobacheva/Averbukh. Under this scoring system that one placement makes the difference between 1st place and 3rd place overall for Punsalan/Swallow. Shows how random this can all be and why it really does have to be about taking joy in the performance, not how the numbers end up turning out with the judging.

I'll have to watch the FD of P/S from 1998 again soon. I've never seen anyone make a case for them being in first place, although I've seen many people argue that they should have placed higher than they did (probably a correct observation). I don't think an NA team ever would have won the Olympic dance event back then, though, even if they actually were the best, unless there were no good Russian teams at all in the competition.

 

[Naya]

As much as I like G/G, I always thought their 94 LP quite ordinary, music and choreo don't connect each other. M/D should have won gold IMHO, they had less technical mistakes and the program was much more creative and passionate.

 

[Crossover]

I'll have to watch the FD of P/S from 1998 again soon. I've never seen anyone make a case for them being in first place, although I've seen many people argue that they should have placed higher than they did (probably a correct observation). I don't think an NA team ever would have won the Olympic dance event back then, though, even if they actually were the best, unless there were no good Russian teams at all in the competition.

This. Claiming that the Americans should've won overall is the most widest assessment about the judging that I've heard of so far. I've also seen many people argued K/O should've won overall, or B/K should've won the FD. While P/S's new FD was nice, their edges and flows were really in the same league with the top 5? Hmm..

 

[Blades of Passion]

While P/S's new FD was nice, their edges and flows were really in the same league with the top 5? Hmm..

Yes. All of the "top" teams skated below their best and Punsalan/Swallow's program was the most intricate. Their program is also simply one of the best Tango's ever, much more actual dance and musicality to it than Grishuk/Platov's rather blocky program and leagues better than Krylova/Ovsyannikov's hilariously over-the-top, empty-ish Carmen. Bourne/Kraatz had a delightful program and performance but it wasn't as difficult (and their best performance of it was at Worlds). I absolutely love Anissina/Peizerat's program but it was their weakest performance of it that whole season; they held back and there were several noticeable errors, including on important technical elements towards the end of the program. And Lobachev/Averbuk were just dull and forgettable. LOL at the Italians even placing over Punsalan/Swallow, that was simply a terrible joke.

 

[4everchan]

to arrange for a P/S win overall, BOP has created a whole reorganizing of every component of the event, showing how under 6.0, judges could just play with ordinals to make sure of the placement of a team For instance, there's no way P/S would have ever placed 3rd in compulsories. .... So BOP shows how a team could win or finish 4th... oh wait... (that has happened as well with B/K ---4th) I am not sure what I prefer here... BOP's own tampering of ordinals or the judges'.... they are both probably "equally iffy"

This. Claiming that the Americans should've won overall is the most widest assessment about the judging that I've heard of so far. I've also seen many people argued K/O should've won overall, or B/K should've won the FD. While P/S's new FD was nice, their edges and flows were really in the same league with the top 5? Hmm..

 

[Blades of Passion]

No, that is specifically and honestly how I would have ranked each of the dances. I wasn't "trying" to make Punsalan/Swallow win overall, they simply did based upon how the rankings turned out.

Watch the dances for yourself. P/S outdid Grishuk/Platov in the first compulsory, the Golden Waltz, in my opinion. G/P made a mistake and overall did not portray the character of the dance that well to me. Here is even commentary of Tracy Wilson stating that Punsalan/Swallow executed the Golden Waltz "as well as any team in the world" - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IianEcHcIh8. Chris Howarth also agreed with me on Anissina/Peizerat being the best in that segment.

Obviously the judges never would have placed the American team so high in 1998 but that doesn't mean the judging was right. Their marks were based extremely heavily on reputation/politics.

 

[blue_idealist]

I'll wait to offer my opinion on P/S and their placement until after I watch that FD again!

 

[Ares]

Yes. All of the "top" teams skated below their best and Punsalan/Swallow's program was the most intricate. Their program is also simply one of the best Tango's ever, much more actual dance and musicality to it than Grishuk/Platov's rather blocky program and leagues better than Krylova/Ovsyannikov's hilariously over-the-top, empty-ish Carmen. Bourne/Kraatz had a delightful program and performance but it wasn't as difficult (and their best performance of it was at Worlds). I absolutely love Anissina/Peizerat's program but it was their weakest performance of it that whole season; they held back and there were several noticeable errors, including on important technical elements towards the end of the program. And Lobachev/Averbuk were just dull and forgettable. LOL at the Italians even placing over Punsalan/Swallow, that was simply a terrible joke.

Can you point me those specific erors that Anissina / Peizerat committed in their Free Dance in Nagano? The sheer beauty of that dance mesmerizes me in such a befuddling way till now that I am unable to point any obvious flaws.

For me noticing errors in real time is problematic even today with more specific technical requirements unless it's some big stumble (the truth is that I am surely unaware of many of them!) as I am not so much accquainted with technicalities. It's sometimes even tough for skaters and their coaches to understand. I know that you can lose some planned level in step sequence because you miss twizzle in some place, that ''error'' is undetectable for casual spectators. In the past when those things were more obscure so in certain instances it could be more difficult as well. As for placings back in 1998 ... I can't make up my mind when it comes to how those results should be so I am taking it how it stands without fuss. I admit though that I am not much into Memorial of Grishuk / Platov and I would not place ridiculous Carmen with deficiencies of Krylova/ Ovsiannikov in top 3 in FD. Their OP could be the best though, Anjelika had dazzling skating quality and they perfomed really well in that segment. When it comes to Free Dances alone I like most Bourne / Kraatz, Anissina / Peizerat (subjective 1st place) and Punsalan / Swallow - beautiful, sultry program that constite actual dance but their skating leaves something to be desired. We all suspect that results were fixed beneficially for Russians, back than there was little to no variation in placing in following segments and you were more or less earning with your reputation and country that you represented. I can't imagine how frustrating that was for second tier teams that could not beat them in any circumstances even if they skated better. I am not doing digs at top teams from Russia from that era, they were all great but I think that they were propped up and favoured just like many skaters, that extends toward contemporary times but it's not that widespread in my opinion.

 

[blue_idealist]

I did watch the FD by P/S again, and the highest I would have had them was 3rd in that segment. K/O and G/P were still clearly superior in my mind.

 

[4everchan]

you are being more generous than I am... I still have B/K ahead too... at best 4th for P/S.....

I did watch the FD by P/S again, and the highest I would have had them was 3rd in that segment. K/O and G/P were still clearly superior in my mind.

 

[Crossover]

At this point, a new thread for this discussion on the 1998 ice dance judging is needed because it is not about the 1994 pair judging any more.

 

[blue_idealist]

you are being more generous than I am... I still have B/K ahead too... at best 4th for P/S.....

I feel like B/K vs. A/P vs. P/S in the FD would have been a hard call for me had I been a judge.

 

[andromache]

I've been trying to hunt down a Yagudin/Plushenko competition worth debating (and came up with nothing so far, so if anyone knows of any very close comps between them, let me know) and clearly I should just make 1998 ice dance the new topic. This weekend, should I make 1998 Nagano a topic for debating ice dance? I was also considering 1994, especially considering T/D came in 3rd.

 

[Blades of Passion]

Can you point me those specific errors that Anissina / Peizerat committed in their Free Dance in Nagano? The sheer beauty of that dance mesmerizes me in such a befuddling way till now that I am unable to point any obvious flaws.

The biggest issue is on a lift where she is totally shaky and wobbly (it's the second time she lifts him), which means he can also never really get into position as well as they normally would. Aside from that, he also has a shaky edge on one of the turns in the straightline footwork sequence towards the end and about halfway through the program he also has what appears to be a balance check moment after a turn where they are changing arm hold.

Also, although it wasn't exactly a mistake per se at the Olympics, they made the program better at Worlds that season by improving the lift where she was on his backside and then turned over to the front, by instead doing a lift where she goes upside-down in split position. Their performance of the program at Worlds is one of the best ever in the history of the sport, I'd say!

I've been trying to hunt down a Yagudin/Plushenko competition worth debating (and came up with nothing so far, so if anyone knows of any very close comps between them, let me know)

The 2000-2001 season Grand Prix final!!

 

[blue_idealist]

I've been trying to hunt down a Yagudin/Plushenko competition worth debating (and came up with nothing so far, so if anyone knows of any very close comps between them, let me know) and clearly I should just make 1998 ice dance the new topic. This weekend, should I make 1998 Nagano a topic for debating ice dance? I was also considering 1994, especially considering T/D came in 3rd.

Both '94 and '98 dance would be good. I think '98 would be more interesting since I haven't seen it debated as much yet as '94.

 

[Crossover]

Covering both 94 and 98 ice dancing on one thread would be nice because the topics deal with Grishuk/Platov's winning golds in straight. While they are the only ice dance team with double Olympic golds, they haven't been revered as much as perhaps they should have although their winning 94 gold was very controversial (or plagued by their private life..)

 

[LiamForeman]

Can you point me those specific erors that Anissina / Peizerat committed in their Free Dance in Nagano? The sheer beauty of that dance mesmerizes me in such a befuddling way till now that I am unable to point any obvious flaws.

Hnnn, yes I also thought it was mesmerizing. If I can add my opinion, I didn't think it was ice dancing. I mean, yes, you can put me on the ice with a partner and we can lift each other and move to the music and call it dancing. A/P were more adagio. Wonderful to watch, but probably not Olympic. Love this team, but I see the criticism from an Olympic standpoint.

 

[VIETgrlTerifa]

They did display a great amount of complex holds, face-to-face skating, and had great multi-directional footwork. Anyway, to me, had Anissina/Peizerat skated their OD the way they did at Worlds, I'd put them in first in that portion. So much difficulty and one of the better jives that season.

For the FD, with the way the teams actually performed in Nagano, I'd rank it 1) Grishuk/Platov (not a fan of Memorial but I can't deny their level of skill), 2) Anissina/Peizerat, 3) Punsalan/Swallow, 4) Krylova/Ovysiannikov, 5) Bourne/Kraatz.

 

[SarahSynchro]

I've created a monster! I would start the new thread myself, but I feel like the last two pages would need to be copied into it... Great discussion though.

I just watched Memorial, boy, it's been a long time since I last saw it... and I dunno, I thought it was boring as paste. Immense talent, of course, but I preferred K/O. And Oskana's bleached hair, oh boy. Distracting.