Chan fears for skaters' health/quads

[Skater Boy]

Chan is right to voice concern for skaters' health. He's careful about his own, for now and for his life after the competitive skating career. He will retire soon and will likely survive the tolls quads take on his body better than most, as we know there are elite skaters being injured trying to land their quads, both while learning it and during attempts in practice and in competitions. It is particularly worthy of concerns with growing teenagers doing so many of them day in and day out, even if they are the ones making it look easy and pushing others with less advantageous body builds to do the same.

Doing a quad takes great force and momentum but the greatest risk is with the landing. While joggers land with 2.5 times, and volleyball and basketball players land with 3 to 4 times, their body weight, a quad jumping skater lands with 7 to 10 times his body weight and has to absorb the impact through a thin blade on hard ice. We all know about injuries due to jogging on pavement. The quad landing can be 10 times riskier.

In explaining The physics behind figure skating’s most difficult jump, the dangers of repetitive landing difficult jumps is brought up:



Repetitive high impact movements almost always end up with injuries if one is not careful, thus all the different ailments from different sport. Lucinda Ruh, the world's greatest spinners on ice, ended her career and is still suffering, with concussions. I know of someone whose life was ruined with great pain and disability after impressive success in programming business due to overworking the mouse for a couple of years.

Few skaters are in a position to speak up about this issue even as they are pushed into injuring themselves to catch up somewhat to the few top ranking prodigies. Kudos to Chan to voice his concerns, no doubt shared silently by many.

There are consequences for our actions. I remember Hanyu and what people thought was determination, athletic heroism and such when Yuzuru continued to compete after that horrible crash. The problem is the public and the judges rewarded him. No consequences. Fortunatetly, no major problem with concussions. Same with Nathan and that serious injury. He came back quickly and with a vengeance. Yay. Good for them. But most will not be so lucky. Kids pick wise heroes. Pick heroes not based on flashiness.

 

[Skater Boy]

However, the rapidly changing landscape in men's figure skating means that the artistic and aesthetically pleasing performers, such as Chan and two-times world champion Javier Fernandez, may soon become an extinct breed.

"Unfortunately... I definitely don’t see another Javi or another me coming up in the world of skating. I see a lot of Boyangs and lot of Shomas coming up in the sport in the junior level," Chan said.

"That’s the direction dictated by the judges and how the events are being judged."

Whatever..........

Well it isn't the judges really. It is the scoring system which the judges merely enforce and act upon. The system probably never looked at quads being worth so much if landed and moreso if not landed worht a good triple. So to avoid the Zayak rule and to get more points try a quad and as long as fully rotated it can be used efficiently to add to a score. That's why pcs have become less important. with so many quads they no longer are really worth as much.

 

[xeyra]

There are consequences for our actions. I remember Hanyu and what people thought was determination, athletic heroism and such when Yuzuru continued to compete after that horrible crash. The problem is the public and the judges rewarded him. No consequences. Fortunatetly, no major problem with concussions. Same with Nathan and that serious injury. He came back quickly and with a vengeance. Yay. Good for them. But most will not be so lucky. Kids pick wise heroes. Pick heroes not based on flashiness.

A bit off topic, but to be fair there were some consequences: IIRC, the ISU was forced to get off its behind and actual have a set of procedures to follow in similar situations, because of all the flack they got for letting it happen.

 

[beki]

For years Patrick's mode of expressing himself rubbed me the wrong way, but these days I find myself agreeing with him more often than not. Has the world ended?

Sure, there's an element of politicking for himself, but there's also concern for the welfare of athletes. He's not the only one to fear devastating injuries are on the horizon in the quad race. Generous GOE for iffy technique incentivizes risk :confused2:

 

[mcq]

Well it isn't the judges really. It is the scoring system which the judges merely enforce and act upon. The system probably never looked at quads being worth so much if landed and moreso if not landed worht a good triple. So to avoid the Zayak rule and to get more points try a quad and as long as fully rotated it can be used efficiently to add to a score. That's why pcs have become less important. with so many quads they no longer are really worth as much.

It is the judging, but in my opinion it is the PCS and GOE marking moreso than the value of a failed jump. I think the system is fine. If someone fell on their quads they could have marked down the PE marks but it rarely happened. I am not sure if more deduction on falls would discourage the skaters to not do quads though. They have already increased the deduction of consecutive falls this season and there is no sign of slowing down.

 

[Camillo]

However, the rapidly changing landscape in men's figure skating means that the artistic and aesthetically pleasing performers, such as Chan and two-times world champion Javier Fernandez, may soon become an extinct breed.

"Unfortunately... I definitely don’t see another Javi or another me coming up in the world of skating. I see a lot of Boyangs and lot of Shomas coming up in the sport in the junior level," Chan said.

#typical Patrick
Ignoring the mere existence of Yuzuru Hanyu who has the full package today as 'artistic performer' AND great technician.

Also I find it funny how Javi from a skater not worthy to watch his whole program moved into the category of 'artistic performers' on the same level as Patrick himself.

2 years ago:

Later, he used the magic of YouTube to watch the routines of Javier Fernandez and Olympic champ Yuzuru Hanyu. He skimmed through their programs. “That says a lot,” Chan said candidly. “It wasn’t that I disliked them. I like Javi and I love his jumps as well as Yuzu: his jumps and his triple Axel. I admire it and I admire a lot of elements of their programs. It’s just that’s what it is. I literally fast-forwarded through their biggest jumps and that’s it. Then I stopped watching.”

Chan feels that their skating hasn’t changed. “It doesn’t look any different. They’re skating to the same pieces of music and style.” Even though Fernandez skated to the Barber of Seville, Chan feels that Fernandez still exhibited very much a Charlie Chaplin style, which “totally works for him.” Chan says he’d love to see him do classical pieces. “Just because that’s what I would do if I was in that position,” he said. “I would challenge myself and do that.”

 

[solani]

The ISU could limit the number of quads in a program but they can't limit the number of quads the athletes attempt in training. We know that f.e. Hanyu is doing tons of quads in training whereas Fernandez is only doing a few. Hanyu is also more slender than Fernandez (and Chan of course). So Hanyu might have a slight advantage here because of his body. But I think that Fernandez' approach is still smarter in terms of possible long term damage. But we'll see although I don't see either Hanyu or Fernandez complaining in a couple of years, they'll just pop their painkillers and go on ... elite sport isn't healthy.

 

[hippomoomin]

I do see some negative tone about Shoma in Chan's comments. Shoma is quite artistic, but his jumps are iffy but are generally not caught for pre-rotation or wrong edge.

We don't know if the new generation of skaters are born and grow up with better nutritions and are stronger physically than Chan's generation. Human beings have always been pushing limits. At least, a skater can do lots of quads does not mean that person is skating with pain or put his long term health at risk. Boyang Jin does not seem to have a major injury as far as we know.

 

[4everchan]

I do see some negative tone about Shoma in Chan's comments. Shoma is quite artistic, but his jumps are iffy but are generally not caught for pre-rotation or wrong edge.
.

Chan didn't say any of these things though... you are bringing this up here... it's nowhere in this article.

 

[xeyra]

The development of quads is an interesting issue. It is true the youngsters of today are training more and more quads much earlier than the past generations of skaters. I mean, we have a Junior World Champion who won with 3 landed quads, one of which a 4Lz, and he is thinking of entering his senior career with 4 different quads already. Nathan has brought 4 to 6 quads to his competitive FS program in his first actual senior season. Last year Boyang made a splash with 4-quad layouts. And Shoma, after starting off with only a 4T his first senior season, has moved mid season from 3 to 4 quad layouts, with thoughts of adding a fifth already. This is the new generation and one doesn't know what impact this heavy, immediate and less gradual quad training can ultimately have.

However, the training techniques, the resources, the equipment, have also changed a lot since the early times.

Patrick and Javi -- and Yuzuru too, despite him being the odd-child out in the narrative (not young enough to be a member of the youngsters nor old enough, or I guess quadless enough, to be part of the Patrick/Javi group) -- lived in a very different era back when they were in their early senior careers. I guess for one, because quads weren't allowed at the Junior level back then. So I understand how this new era of quads is baffling and worrying for Patrick, because he's probably not the only one thinking it. And yet, the COP does seem to encourage it. It is a code of points, and the quads are worth the more points, so someone really good at jumps can come and use their strengths.

I do agree that too many quads can detract from a program, though. I mean, I loved Yuzu, Shoma and Boyang at Worlds, despite them having a 4-quad layout, because I do think they still managed to bring artistic merit (yes, even Boyang, the kid is a great performer, okay!) to their programs but I do think 3-4 is the absolutely maximum you can have before the program starts to suffer. And if my favorites do decide to fight the new era through more quads, I'll still support them, but silently wish they didn't feel they had to.

And yet, I'm not sure limiting the number of quads in the rules is the solution to all of this.

 

[mcq]

And yet, I'm not sure limiting the number of quads in the rules is the solution to all of this.

Honestly, unless all quadsters are broken (knock on woods it won't happen), not gonna happen. Might as well limit tanos and backloading in ladies, but then again, not gonna happen. If judges dislike quads so much and they think many quads jeopardize/affect/lessen the quality of the programs, they could have given it lower PCS. But they did not; in fact, I'd argue doing more quads would suddenly buffed up your PCS (just look at Nathan or Boyang's PCS compared to the likes of Han Yan, Denis Ten who has better program components).

 

[Camillo]

If judges dislike quads so much and they think many quads jeopardize/affect/lessen the quality of the programs, they could have given it lower PCS. But they did not; in fact, I'd argue doing more quads would suddenly buffed up your PCS

Yes, or they could give lower GOEs ("real" GOEs ) or they could lower BV of quads to make them less attractive - remember pre-Vancouver time.

The only change ISU is willing to do is to balance growth of TES by building up PCS. But we already know that "doing more quads would suddenly buffed up your PCS" Endless circle.

 

[shyne]

I am ready to hear from Chan haters. But really folks a few years ago it was inflation and now we should be hearing about Chan deflation. Quads are worth so much the scoring system is no longer blalanced so pcs aren't worht as uch compared to quads. It is kind of like gravity what goes up has to come down eventually. I for one am even less enamoured with Hanyu's long programs because he has to focus now on so much the quads. I mean he still does have more inbetween than most but it lose some magic - it is almost unthinkable that there aren't consequences for a heavy focus on more quads. But we on this forum won't agree so what do we expect with the rest of the world? It might take one of our faves to become a quadripilegic before we realize that maybe this isn't the best direction for the sport. I appreciate Boyang, Shoma, Yuzuru and Chen. And great for Yuzuru to think quins are possible or quad axels. People blamed Duhamel and Radford for ruining the beauty of the sport but what about the push for quads - the increase in tech has been far faster and greater in men's than pairs. But unless there is a change in rules I think we will see the quad craze to continue. Maybe there needs tob e a bigger deduction - because the way I see it fully rotate that quad and even with a fall it is still worth a solid triple in value

I think we should all acknowedge this Quad fest is a direct response to PCS inflation.
The only way to win over a not so clean (1-2 major mistakes) Patrick Chan is to increase the BV (by adding more # and more types of Quad), the same trend remains today. Younger skaters chasing after Yuzuru are max their potential BV to compensate their PCS. PCS has a cap and TES doesn't.

 

[Nika09]

How someone supposed to enjoy LP with 6x 7x quad programs? Or is here enyone who will claim that these aren't dangerous for athletes at all?

4x and maybe somehow 5x (but no, its too much already) quads is OK, and there could be and are enjoyable programs (e.g. Yuzuru, Shoma) with them. But more it'd be just "jumping during skating from one end to another".

But I think Jin and especially Shoma are not in the same group with Nathan. Should wait for the next season but so far Shoma is pretty good in presentation.
And couple of years ago Patrick has mentioned Javi's similar programs (and again, agree with that actually) but now, dear Patrick don't you think you also should try something different?
Hanyu is weirdest (in positive way) member of this top-6. İt's really hard to compare him with the others.

Overall, I agree with Patrick and I don't see need in crazy quantity quads until quality and presentation are still important. Don't forget Worlds: if Javi (3Q) could go clean he will be on the podium alongside Shoma and Hanyu. No 5-6 quads, no 4Lz. The only thing that really bothering - it TES-dependent PCS.

 

[mcq]

Yes, or they could give lower GOEs ("real" GOEs ) or they could lower BV of quads to make them less attractive - remember pre-Vancouver time.

The only change ISU is willing to do is to balance growth of TES by building up PCS. But we already know that "doing more quads would suddenly buffed up your PCS" Endless circle.

I'm just saying, if there are really concerns over skaters' health and longevity, they don't have to change the system or limit numbers of quads. Let's say if they do limit quads to 2 in the short and 3 in the free, for example. Skaters would just train 4Lz and 4A to have the highest BV and maybe backload all their quads and 3A to garner more points (this trend has started in ladies).

This is still a sport and all these athletes want to WIN. They will always find a way to maximize their chance of winning and be ahead of the field regardless of the limitation and the system. If they are worried that young skaters are too focused on quads thus might injure themselves, then don't reward them so much if their skating is not living up to it. That is what the PCS is for (not to actually reward skaters who do gazillions of quads MORE PCS). Don't give quads with long set up, horrible air position and sloppy landings high GOEs. Why gave such high SS and TR mark when there are mostly crossovers and two-foot skating to accommodate quads? etc etc.

Encourage balance and longevity, but don't discourage technical advancement. That is against the spirit of any sports, just saying.

 

[ralucutzagy]

I think P.Chan is right. :think:
Since the ''quadpalooza" started, the artistic quallity of the programs dropped dramatically. 4-5-6 quads ... it is physically impossible to mantain the artistic quality of the programs with so many quads. Think of Nathan Chan and his balletic preparation. His programs would be amazing with fewer quads and much more attention for the artistic part. I have to admit that Yuzu's artistic quality of LP diminished since 4 quad (and I'm his uber fan). I really think ISU should intervene and stop somehow the ''quadpalooza". Only for health and longevity of such amazing and talented skaters. I hope to see them a longer time.
Just my humble opinion...

 

[surimi]

I've never been a Chan fan, but he's right to voice his concerns. And kudos to him for doing so, eventhough he must have known there would be people who would see his warnings as nothing more than a sore loser's criticism. I'm worried about the young quadsters' health too, & I'm glad it's getting talked about. Yes, it's a sport and the young athletes only do what they need to do to get on the podium, but at the same time, I'd selfishly love to see my favorites in shows after their competitive careers are over (if they turn professional), not on meds for the rest of their lives because they'd ruined their health practicing 5 and more quads per program.

 

[NoNameFace]

I agree with the danger of quads on the body....and how one can feel invincible during teenage years and do irreversible damage.
I hope the scoring system will change soon, to give more emphasis to other areas of skating and rebalance the scale a bit.
However, IF Chan had skated a clean LP. IF Javi had skated a clean LP, they both would have been on the podium at worlds and well-rounded skaters/performers like Javi and Patrick are still being rewarded for the well-roundedness. The podium could have been Javi/Yuzu/Patrick. Please skate clean guys!
And I hope we see a more balanced scoring system come of this BEFORE anyone gets seriously injured.

--Made me go, 'huh'? All skaters are unique. So no, there won't be another Javi or Patrick. But in terms of what kind of strengths they are naturally equipped with they are actually similar to a young Javi and a young Patrick. Boyang, with his quads and vivacious personality, Shoma with his deep edges, knees and power across the ice. -Only they have harder jumps than Javi and Patrick did at the same age. Javi developed artistry and better skating skills later on, Patrick is doing harder jumps now than he did before. -So if the scoring system were to shift a little to encourage more focus on skating skills and presentation, then chances are good that Boyang and Shoma can be the next generation of supremely enjoyable and well-rounded skaters. They are doing a good job now as it is.

on point Interspectator, exactly my take on this whole topic, thank You a lot for those posts!!!

as we, FS viewers, have our 'focus points', things/qualities in FS we value more than the others and often they become our 'lenses' through we view everyone, same goes with skaters who have their right to voice out their opinions on current trends, tendencies, issues spotted that bothers them...

Quads - of course, they are exciting and a major weapon in competitive arsenal of any skater, however the weapon could be double-sworded and should be used with consideration and individual approach towards each skater. In all honesty I don't see anything wrong with capitalizing on having them under skaters' belts - every skater builds himself based on his best qualities and gather his competitive force/potential out of them. But yes - the challenge posed for those skaters' health is huge and ruthless, so is current scoring system regarding medals-like/titles competitiveness and that should be a subject of modification - to reflect things other than quads more, not to reduce any skater only to the number of quad jumps he can perform, that's not what figure skating is about for me (yes, I'm that naïve).

I do wish that two things would be always given to all skaters unconditionally - time and patience, regarding both quads/jumps development in general and regarding growing all-around as a performer/'complete' skater (which is another subjective term, bearing so much of personal projecting, as some would consider a 'complete skater' this who have various kinds of quads, is consistent with tech side, some OTOH would define 'complete skater' as skater full of musicality, having something unique, personal which is incorporated in all his programs...). I'm equally excited and animated by those more mature/seasoned skaters like Patrick or Javier, and those younger, but no less fierce and determined like Jin, Nathan or Shoma. For me, they all make this FS Men's landscape 'complete', unique and rich with all they have - and the best thing is each of them is that they're one of a kind, with something distinct and beautiful regardless of rules and specifics of the sport being the same for everyone.

We're living currently in quad madness era, let's face it, and a part of every sport is about surpassing boundaries, 'impossible' posed by previous generations - I feel that quads and talks about even more that them is a FS response to that challenge present in competitive sport in general. The only boundary seems to be now skater's body and poise how far will he go which is dangerous in a long extent, but it's an inevitable consequence of the direction Men's FS went. Saying this, my only wish is to balance out in a healthy/reasonable way scoring/judging system to accommodate equally challenge and safety, quads and all other factors. Pity that people's prejudices, convictions cannot be balanced by being considerate and patient...

 

[surimi]

entire post

This. I agree so much.

 

[Camillo]

I really think ISU should intervene and stop somehow the ''quadpalooza". Only for health and longevity of such amazing and talented skaters.

I just quote:

If they are worried that young skaters are too focused on quads thus might injure themselves, then don't reward them so much if their skating is not living up to it. That is what the PCS is for (not to actually reward skaters who do gazillions of quads MORE PCS). Don't give quads with long set up, horrible air position and sloppy landings high GOEs. Why gave such high SS and TR mark when there are mostly crossovers and two-foot skating to accommodate quads? etc etc.

And also they can lower BV, let's say - 8.6 points for 4T, 8.8 for 4S, 9.2 for 4Lo, 9.4 for 4F, 10 for 4Lz, 11 for 4A With BV like that it wouldn't be profitable to have 4-6 unstable quads at LP.