Correct Lutz and Correct Flip

[Step Sequence4]

Elucidus, if prerotation isnt helpful, explain how trusova can do a 4F at 56cm yet rika requires 58 or 59cm just to complete a 3A?

Different people have different speeds of rotation. That's why some people doing quads don't have to jump as high as others, or that Satoko CAN (not saying she always does) do fully rotated triples at such a small height compared to how high someone like Tukt jumps. Pre-rotation is a natural part of jump mechanics, and always has been. You can't just put your toe pick in the ice jump into the air and expect to be turning. You have to do something to create rotation.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Excuses, excuses, excuses... Puberty? Yuna, Yuzuru, Carolina and Elizaveta all had to deal with puberty. But puberty did not stop any of them. They did not retire at the age of 19, unlike Lipnitskaya. (By the way, I checked her videos in slow motion - not only that she had small jumps (that is visible in real speed), but she also prerotated a lot.) So obviously puberty is not such a big problem when a skater has textbook technique.
Technical game has changed? And who is able to keep with the 3 A, who are 16 and 15-year-old? It is not the 17-year-old Zagitova nor the 20-year-old Medvedeva, but the 23-year-old Tuktamysheva, who has been skating as a senior for almost 10 seasons. She did not have the best GP experience this year, but now she can jump a quad toe both as a solo jump and in combination. Maybe she will be able to learn more quads in the future. Where are Lipnitskaya, Medvedeva and Zagitova? And what will happen to Trusova and Shcherbakova in the future?

Right. Biological changes that can drastically affect a skater’s body are merely “excuses”.

By that notion every skater should be competing past 25 and any skater who doesn’t clearly isn’t fulfilling their potential.

(And using Hanyu as an example is odd seeing as puberty affects female skaters far more drastically.)

I would love to hear who some of your fave skaters are and have been and analyze the longevity of their ability. I would also love to know your own experience skating/coaching/etc seeing as how you seem to have little understanding or appreciation as to how something like puberty can compromise a skater’s career.

I love the faith you put in Liza who didn’t even make the GPF, but dismiss Zagitova and Medvedeva ... where are they, indeed - I mean, they only happen to be the reigning World champion and World bronze medalist.

 

[Elucidus]

Elucidus, if prerotation isnt helpful, explain how trusova can do a 4F at 56cm yet rika requires 58 or 59cm just to complete a 3A?

1) Rika is also preroates albeit to a less extent
2) different rotation speed

Also I notice you are against current underrotations and edge rules... it seems you are not a fan of figure skating, just russian figure skaters if you are not wanting people to be marked fairly for the elements they execute. This is not based on the prerotation discussion, just the fact that you are against them being strict with edge and rotation.

Why not japanese ladies fan then? Satoko Mayahara and Kaori Sakamoto were the main victims of UR rules this season after all
The thing is - there isn't and can't be fair marking thing in principle in current rules. There are always going to be missed URs and edges due to technical and time limitations. Therefore, if choose between two evils - I prefer extremely lenient judging. This way at least everyone are in equal conditions.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Elucidus, if prerotation isnt helpful, explain how trusova can do a 4F at 56cm yet rika requires 58 or 59cm just to complete a 3A?

Also I notice you are against current underrotations and edge rules... it seems you are not a fan of figure skating, just russian figure skaters if you are not wanting people to be marked fairly for the elements they execute. This is not based on the prerotation discussion, just the fact that you are against them being strict with edge and rotation.

Lol wuuut?!?!? Different skaters, different jumps —- plus if it hasn’t been said a million times before, Icescope accuracy is questionable at best, and yet people take it as dogma.

Not that Elucidus needs to defend themselves against you, lol, but just because someone focuses on other things that are - not their opinion - more important doesn’t make them against figure skating.

Elucidus is FACTUALLY stating the rules do not mention pre rotation.

Yes lack of pre-rotation is ideal — but the vast majority of figure skaters pre rotate their jumps. Figure skating isn’t about being the best at every thing because only one skater can be the best at a particular facet of figure skating.

Pre-rotation is one aspect of figure skating. If you dislike it and that “ruins” a skater, fine, you do you boo. But it doesn’t delegitimize fans.

It’s like me saying “all pairs death spirals must have the woman’s head no more than 1 inch from the ice otherwise those death spirals should be heavily deducted/not counted.” Which would be silly. Like, fine, 1 inch off the ice is more ideal compared to a pair team that has her head 4 or 5 inches off the ice, but those death spirals are still legitimate even if they’re not the best case example... moreover, it would be silly of me to say “anyone who is fine with death spirals where the woman’s head is higher than one inch off the ice is not a true fan of figure skating”.

 

[kolyadafan2002]

Lol wuuut?!?!? Different skaters, different jumps —- plus if it hasn’t been said a million times before, Icescope accuracy is questionable at best, and yet people take it as dogma.

Not that Elucidus needs to defend themselves against you, lol, but just because someone focuses on other things that are - not their opinion - more important doesn’t make them against figure skating.

Elucidus is FACTUALLY stating the rules do not mention pre rotation.

Yes lack of pre-rotation is ideal — but the vast majority of figure skaters pre rotate their jumps. Figure skating isn’t about being the best at every thing because only one skater can be the best at a particular facet of figure skating.

Pre-rotation is one aspect of figure skating. If you dislike it and that “ruins” a skater, fine, you do you boo. But it doesn’t delegitimize fans.

It’s like me saying “all pairs death spirals must have the woman’s head no more than 1 inch from the ice otherwise those death spirals should be heavily deducted/not counted.” Which would be silly. Like, fine, 1 inch off the ice is more ideal compared to a pair team that has her head 4 or 5 inches off the ice, but those death spirals are still legitimate even if they’re not the best case example... moreover, it would be silly of me to say “anyone who is fine with death spirals where the woman’s head is higher than one inch off the ice is not a true fan of figure skating”.

I was talking about the underrotation rules....

Now back to prerotation. Taking off forward - aka leaving the ice past forward is a downgrade in the rules.

 

[kolyadafan2002]

1) Rika is also preroates albeit to a less extent
2) different rotation speed


Why not japanese ladies fan then? Satoko Mayahara and Kaori Sakamoto were the main victims of UR rules this season after all
The thing is - there isn't and can't be fair marking thing in principle in current rules. There are always going to be missed URs and edges due to technical and time limitations. Therefore, if choose between two evils - I prefer extremely lenient judging. This way at least everyone are in equal conditions.

Everybody is equal. There will always be mistakes in judging sports however it's better people, however the mistakes will be at the same margin of error. In reality a flat edge is given !, and it sonly an e if it's a clear edge change. Of course we need to make sure judges are less biased towards their favourites (or in this case tech specialists).

If its missed by technology then it likely was within the margin of error for the jump to. We should be encouraging clean rotations, not underrotations.

Satoko Mayahara would do better in ice dance in my honest opinion. She is a beautiful skater but not a great jumper (to use a euphemism).

At least they call underrotations properly in Japanese nationals. In every other country there is a tonne of inflation at nationals. (Not just Russia - US, France, China etc...)

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

I was talking about the underrotation rules....

Now back to prerotation. Taking off forward - aka leaving the ice past forward is a downgrade in the rules.

Pre rotation is not the same as a cheated takeoff, both in terms of physical mechanics and how the rules regard them.

Someone fab (who clearly doesn’t understand IJS or jump mechanics) decided that a pick turning on the ice constitutes a cheated takeoff and it’s spread — but under the current rules it is not. It is a poorer takeoff than a less prerotated one which can/should reduce GOE, but it is not a downgrade.

Going over 180 on a prerotated pick is not grounds for deduction, otherwise you would see protocols littered with << calls, especially in rhe ladies event.

It’s a bit of a broken record now explaining this to people. And rather weird that some people discuss with a lens that is incompatible with the existing rules. It leads to misinformation.

I pity people frustrated when they see a protocol and lament that a skater is not called on a tech call, simply because they don’t understand the rules or they have their own way of interpreting them. It would be like a fan complaining that a ChSp1 didn’t get deducted for not having a spiral in it - it’s like, okay, if you believe every choreo sequence to be valid it must have a spiral that’s on you — but the rules allow sequences without them to still be validated and score well. If in your mind there is a discrepancy between what you think the rules should be and what the rules are then you will be perpetually confused and frustrated with scores/protocols. It’s like saying that a jump should get higher GOE because of exit transitions — um no, it’s no longer a GOE bullet.

Like pretty much every fan, I’ve certainly had instances of not knowing or falsely interpreting IJS butwhen it’s pointed out to me I still consider the other side and can admit if or when I’m wrong. It seems with the prerotation inquisition squad though there is no wiggle room. I mean, if that’s the sword some choose to die in and a personal dealbreaker for what constitutes a skater being watchable then that’s on y’all. *shrug*

“Omg I can’t watch skater x, because when I slow down the replay of their jumps it’s pre rotated a couple degrees more, and ruins their performance. I can only watch skaters with zero technical flaws!”

 

[Casual]

Pre rotation is not the same as a cheated takeoff, both in terms of physical mechanics and how the rules regard them.

Someone fab (who clearly doesn’t understand IJS or jump mechanics) decided that a pick turning on the ice constitutes a cheated takeoff and it’s spread — but under the current rules it is not. It is a poorer takeoff than a less prerotated one which can/should reduce GOE, but it is not a downgrade.

Does it, though? Reduce GOEs, that is?

Figure skating is not graded on the curve, nor is it graded on the "rules", whatever they supposedly are. More often than not, it seems to be graded on "bonus" - "skating while Russian", "skating on home turf", "skating while judges favorite", etc., can inflate GOEs (and PCS) without any connection to reality.

 

[TripleAxelQueens3]

Many of the former and current Snow Leopards of Panova spring to mind when thinking of skaters that fulfill the criteria of having correct flip and lutz technique.

I find it funny that the same people saying that Eteri kids need to skate longer and fulfill their potential are often the same ones saying that Sasha and Anya will certainly loose their quads soon and will retire before they’re 18.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Does it, though? Reduce GOEs, that is?

Figure skating is not graded on the curve, nor is it graded on the "rules", whatever they supposedly are. More often than not, it seems to be graded on "bonus" - "skating while Russian", "skating on home turf", "skating while judges favorite", etc., can inflate GOEs (and PCS) without any connection to reality.

Well every judge is different. Some might not care about pre rotation at all... some might care more about the landing... etc. The thing is the rules still allow a lot of room for subjectivity.

Some judges are also way more astringent than others. As long as they are consistently strict with all the skaters they are judging, it’s fine, IMO.

 

[Moxiejan]

I was talking about the underrotation rules....
Now back to prerotation. Taking off forward - aka leaving the ice past forward is a downgrade in the rules.

Yes, but only IF visible to the eye at normal speed. Not reviewable in slo-mo replay.

 

[kolyadafan2002]

Pre rotation is not the same as a cheated takeoff, both in terms of physical mechanics and how the rules regard them.

Someone fab (who clearly doesn’t understand IJS or jump mechanics) decided that a pick turning on the ice constitutes a cheated takeoff and it’s spread — but under the current rules it is not. It is a poorer takeoff than a less prerotated one which can/should reduce GOE, but it is not a downgrade.

Going over 180 on a prerotated pick is not grounds for deduction, otherwise you would see protocols littered with << calls, especially in rhe ladies event.

It’s a bit of a broken record now explaining this to people. And rather weird that some people discuss with a lens that is incompatible with the existing rules. It leads to misinformation.

I pity people frustrated when they see a protocol and lament that a skater is not called on a tech call, simply because they don’t understand the rules or they have their own way of interpreting them. It would be like a fan complaining that a ChSp1 didn’t get deducted for not having a spiral in it - it’s like, okay, if you believe every choreo sequence to be valid it must have a spiral that’s on you — but the rules allow sequences without them to still be validated and score well. If in your mind there is a discrepancy between what you think the rules should be and what the rules are then you will be perpetually confused and frustrated with scores/protocols. It’s like saying that a jump should get higher GOE because of exit transitions — um no, it’s no longer a GOE bullet.

Like pretty much every fan, I’ve certainly had instances of not knowing or falsely interpreting IJS butwhen it’s pointed out to me I still consider the other side and can admit if or when I’m wrong. It seems with the prerotation inquisition squad though there is no wiggle room. I mean, if that’s the sword some choose to die in and a personal dealbreaker for what constitutes a skater being watchable then that’s on y’all. *shrug*

“Omg I can’t watch skater x, because when I slow down the replay of their jumps it’s pre rotated a couple degrees more, and ruins their performance. I can only watch skaters with zero technical flaws!”

I asked a tech specialist. She said a really harsh tech specialist might apply a downgrade over 180 degrees prerotation, as the rules say a clear forward take off. A skater I know once got < on a clean loop at universiade, and the reason was because of the excessive prerotation...

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

I asked a tech specialist. She said a really harsh tech specialist might apply a downgrade over 180 degrees prerotation, as the rules say a clear forward take off. A skater I know once got < on a clean loop at universiade, and the reason was because of the excessive prerotation...

Sure. And technical specialists have missed properly reducing P/C’s twizzle earlier this year even though Gabriella did one extra rotation. They don’t always get it right.

A harsh tech specialist might also give a call to a jump that has just 45 degrees pre-rotation, or 45 degrees under rotation on the landing. Some will reduce a level if they think a position wasn’t achieved, or if a step sequence has missteps. It is a subjective call to make.

The greater question to ask your friend is if pre-rotation is really a thing judges take into consideration in their GOE, and also ask your friend if tech specialists distinguish between a cheated takeoff and pre-rotation.

 

[NadezhdaNadya]

Right. Biological changes that can drastically affect a skater’s body are merely “excuses”.

By that notion every skater should be competing past 25 and any skater who doesn’t clearly isn’t fulfilling their potential.

(And using Hanyu as an example is odd seeing as puberty affects female skaters far more drastically.)

I would love to hear who some of your fave skaters are and have been and analyze the longevity of their ability. I would also love to know your own experience skating/coaching/etc seeing as how you seem to have little understanding or appreciation as to how something like puberty can compromise a skater’s career.

I love the faith you put in Liza who didn’t even make the GPF, but dismiss Zagitova and Medvedeva ... where are they, indeed - I mean, they only happen to be the reigning World champion and World bronze medalist.

I live in a non-skating country. I think we have just one permanent skating rink in the capital. But I do not live in the capital.
If I had been born in the USA or Canada, I would have been the best skater in the Universe. Hahaha.
Yuni and Yuzi are my favourite skaters.

 

[Elucidus]

I asked a tech specialist. She said a really harsh tech specialist might apply a downgrade over 180 degrees prerotation, as the rules say a clear forward take off. A skater I know once got < on a clean loop at universiade, and the reason was because of the excessive prerotation...

And what level of qualification this specialist have? Is it an international ISU judge? What type of competitions he/she judged?
Like in every area of people's activity - the level of specialists competence differs drastically. Figure skating is not an exeption. Wrong calls can be common occurence in local low-level/kids competitions, especially in countries without strong federation. In some countries even acting coaches/figure skaters do judges work since they just don't have qualificated enough judges there.

 

[kolyadafan2002]

And what level of qualification this specialist have? Is it an international ISU judge? What type of competitions he/she judged?
Like in every area of people's activity - the level of specialists competence differs drastically. Figure skating is not an exeption. Wrong calls can be common occurence in local low-level/kids competitions, especially in countries without strong federation. In some countries even acting coaches/figure skaters do judges work since they just don't have qualificated enough judges there.

A tech specialist at national level.
In terms of the loop <, this happened at universiade!

 

[Casual]

I find it funny that the usual response to any upset over biased judgment calls is always "it's subjective".

Like when the jumps are supposed to get higher GOEs if they are higher/longer/etc., (or look effortless, etc.), but they never do, for the non-preferred skaters - who cares, it's subjective, right.

If it's "subjective", it's not a sport.

 

[Lzbee]

I find it funny that the usual response to any upset over biased judgment calls is always "it's subjective".

Like when the jumps are supposed to get higher GOEs if they are higher/longer/etc., (or look effortless, etc.), but they never do, for the non-preferred skaters - who cares, it's subjective, right.

If it's "subjective", it's not a sport.

Surely this means we need better technology so that it's not subjective? Boot technology to determine jump rotation and skating speed, camera technology to determine accurate height and distance and algorithms to fairly calculate and weigh up the data.

 

[gkelly]

Height and distance together fill just one possible GOE bullet point. And in the current setup they are evaluated by judges' eyes, not measured by instruments. Someday maybe there will be measurements such that every jump over X size will get the same reward, or there would be increasing rewards for increasing size. So far, that's not how the judging works .

Also, it's possible that one very big jump would have no other bullet points in most judges' eyes, so they would give it +1. Another jump might be smaller than the first but still enough to qualify as "very good" height and distance and also have several other qualities worthy of other bullet points. So that one could earn +3 or higher.

That's the way the system is currently designed. Size isn't everything.

 

[Casual]

Surely this means we need better technology so that it's not subjective? Boot technology to determine jump rotation and skating speed, camera technology to determine accurate height and distance and algorithms to fairly calculate and weigh up the data.

That would be nice. What would be also helpful is a post-competition side-by-side reviews, (frame-by-frame if necessary), to make sure there're no subjective shenanigans.

If anyone was interested in retraining judges to be less subjective, that is.