David Wilson on Sasha Cohen

[4everchan]

sure... at the same time, it's not like Choreography and Interpretation will ever outscore jumps spins and footwork... otherwise, it would no longer be figure skating but ballet on ice, so athletes, coaches, judges and choreographers work the way they do right no to create a map of elements t optimize points... very little to do with art in my humble opinion ....

Choreography and Interpretation are worth points - even the GOE of technical elements have components of this - but those points aren't being handed out accurately. Therefore....

 

[Blades of Passion]

Yes the elements are important and the entire choreography needs to take the elements into account.

But, for example, people cram tons of jumps into the second half of their program at the detriment of Choreography/Interpretation. Doing a Triple Loop in the second half of the program gives you an extra .51 points, but if you are putting the jump there for no reason, then it is worse Choreography/Interpretation and you should actually be losing points in comparison! Look at Yuzuru Hanyu's program this past season. I think he needed to put his Triple Loop directly after his footwork sequence (where it wouldn't have received the "second half" bonus) and then give the program more room to breathe in the second half.

If you assume that such a change to the program should ideally be worth an extra, let's say, .5 on the choreography and interpretation marks with how the program could have been altered, then Hanyu is gaining 2 points there while losing the .51 for putting the Triple Loop earlier in the program. Which means a net result of +1.49 points for him. BUT the components he received were already astronomical and there was nobody telling him "this program can be better", so how can he ever come to this conclusion?

 

[4everchan]

Yes the elements are important and the entire choreography needs to take the elements into account.

But, for example, people cram tons of jumps into the second half of their program at the detriment of Choreography/Interpretation. Doing a Triple Loop in the second half of the program gives you an extra .51 points, but if you are putting the jump there for no reason, then it is worse Choreography/Interpretation and you should actually be losing points in comparison! Look at Yuzuru Hanyu's program this past season. I think he needed to put his Triple Loop directly after his footwork sequence (where it wouldn't have received the "second half" bonus) and then give the program more room to breathe in the second half.

If you assume that such a change to the program should ideally be worth an extra, let's say, .5 on the choreography and interpretation marks with how the program could have been altered, then Hanyu is gaining 2 points there while losing the .51 for putting the Triple Loop earlier in the program. Which means a net result of +1.49 points for him. BUT the components he received were already astronomical and there was nobody telling him "this program can be better", so how can he ever come to this conclusion?

I could write a lot of things here. I don't disagree with you... I just think that you would enjoy figure skating better if you saw it as a sport i have no idea how old you are but for some of us who watched all these pro competitions in the 90s, I can see why you would push for better choreography, evolving with the program, creating meaningful programs etc... but it cannot be the trend now... and it will not be as the ISU had to make figure skating a truly scoreable sport. I sometimes miss some of the "old" skating but I love figure skating as a sport. If I want to see art, I go to the ballet

 

[Blades of Passion]

Well that IS sport. It's physically difficult to skate to music and emote while doing all of these other things and we are judging how effectively the competitor does it.

That line of reasoning "go see an exhibition or ballet" never holds up. People want art and sport at the same time. Figure skating is uniquely positioned to provide it. Of course it could still be the trend. The scoring system specifically provides the ways to reward it. So let's start doing it right.

 

[4everchan]

art to me is not something that is regulated by a code of points or needed to fit in 4.5 minutes or judged by a technical panel. I will never see competitive figure skating as an art form. as far as I am concerned, i see beauty in other sports just as much as in figure skating. I don't get distracted by the emotional content provided by the music or feathers and sequins I am looking at elements and skating components for their execution, quality, amplitude and speed....etc

I am okay if we disagree here and leave it at that. However, I remain convinced that there is a good reason, as mentioned before, why David Wilson doesn't mess with other choreographers' work

Well that IS sport. It's physically difficult to skate to music and emote while doing all of these other things and we are judging how effectively the competitor does it.

That line of reasoning "go see an exhibition or ballet" never holds up. People want art and sport at the same time. Figure skating is uniquely positioned to provide it. Of course it could still be the trend. The scoring system specifically provides the ways to reward it. So let's start doing it right.

 

[SarahSynchro]

As for choreographers, well, I seem to recall one Christopher Dean choreographing a Bolero program to an American princess, and she watered it all down to a program that looked like ALL her programs after a certain year, and he requested to have his name removed as choreographer.

May I ask who this was?

Sorry, I'm not as long-term of a skating fan as many of you have been.

 

[Mathman]

May I ask who this was?

Michelle Kwan. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pxDaPHeTc0I

In Michelle's defense, though, what is a skater supposed to do with this clunker of a song? As Ravel himself said," Do you think this theme has an insistent quality? I'm going to try and repeat it a number of times without any development,…"

He staged it with a factory in the background so that the audience would not fail to note the mechanical nature of this "music without any music."

 

[4everchan]

thanks for sharing.. i had no recollection of that program... watered down is appropriate... not much in this program... except kwan's being gorgeous

Michelle Kwan. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pxDaPHeTc0I

 

[SarahSynchro]

Michelle Kwan. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pxDaPHeTc0I

Thanks, Mathman.

Definitely not her best.

 

[Violet Bliss]

Doesn't Mishin regularly water down choreography for his skaters? Nothing should get in the way of the jumps I suppose.

Lori Nichols always tells her clients to come back with the new element when they've actually acquired it but she won't include it in anticipation. I agree a program should be choreographed according to the skills a skater possesses, not more than they can handle.

 

[Mathman]

thanks for sharing.. i had no recollection of that program... watered down is appropriate... not much in this program... except kwan's being gorgeous

Michelle was seriously ailing by this time. with her hip situation. She did what she could and left out the rest.

 

[4everchan]

well a bolero is not a song but a dance

and i don't understand why solo skaters want to skate on it tbh... makes no sense to me...

as for this particular bolero....one of Ravel's masterpieces, the beauty of it resides in the different colours of the instrument relaying the melody to one another... almost everyone in the orchestra gets a shot at it... it's extremely beautiful in its entirety, live at the symphony ... but unless you are T/D, or an especially gifted dance team, it should stay away from the ice rink....

Michelle Kwan. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pxDaPHeTc0I

In Michelle's defense, though, what is a skater supposed to do with this clunker of a song? As Ravel himself said," Do you think this theme has an insistent quality? I'm going to try and repeat it a number of times without any development,…"

He staged it with a factory in the background so that the audience would not fail to note the mechanical nature of this "music without any music."

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i didn't know that either.. i tuned out for a little while in the early 2000...

Michelle was seriously ailing by this time. with her hip situation. She did what she could and left out the rest.

 

[4everchan]

are you saying ET's bolero had choreo in it before mishin removed it all to make room for her 3A

Doesn't Mishin regularly water down choreography for his skaters? Nothing should get in the way of the jumps I suppose.

Lori Nichols always tells her clients to come back with the new element when they've actually acquired it but she won't include it in anticipation. I agree a program should be choreographed according to the skills a skater possesses, not more than they can handle.

 

[Violet Bliss]

are you saying ET's bolero had choreo in it before mishin removed it all to make room for her 3A

I was referring to his quadsters, including his biggest star student.

Bolero is most appropriate for this venue.

 

[4everchan]

i am afraid to click on this link in case it has to do with bo-lero derek

I was referring to his quadsters, including his biggest star student.

Bolero is most appropriate for this venue.

 

[Mathman]

As for this particular bolero....one of Ravel's masterpieces, the beauty of it resides in the different colours of the instrument relaying the melody to one another… almost everyone in the orchestra gets a shot at it... it's extremely beautiful in its entirety, live at the symphony ... but unless you are T/D, or an especially gifted dance team, it should stay away from the ice rink….

Quite so. When you try to edit it down to four minutes everything that is unique about the piece is lost. Even Torvill and Dean's version was unsatisfying, musically speaking. (For one thing they couldn't make the music fit with the dancing, so they had to stand still in their opening pose to let a few bars of music go by -- otherwise the music would have been too long and they would have got a time deduction.)

Instead of modulating from one musical color to the next, these shortened versions always have awkward skips where suddenly some horns come blaring in, or something.

 

[Mathman]

If you assume that such a change to the program should ideally be worth an extra, let's say, .5 on the choreography and interpretation marks with how the program could have been altered, then Hanyu is gaining 2 points there while losing the .51 for putting the Triple Loop earlier in the program. Which means a net result of +1.49 points for him. BUT the components he received were already astronomical and there was nobody telling him "this program can be better", so how can he ever come to this conclusion?

To me, that pretty much ends the discussion. If you can get 9.75 for choreography that, as 4everchan adroitly puts it, is little more than a road map marking the placements of technical elements and their transitions -- well, that's that. You can't pick up an extra .5 in components no matter what you do and "this program can be better" falls by the wayside.

 

[Ares]

To me, that pretty much ends the discussion. If you can get 9.75 for choreography that, as 4everchan adroitly puts it, is little more than a road map marking the placements of technical elements and their transitions -- well, that's that. You can't pick up an extra .5 in components no matter what you do and "this program can be better" falls by the wayside.

People may want to ignore that but PCS score reflect the actual performance only partially. It is often used just to determine placements (not sure whether it was the intent) and that makes it inherently comparative and subjective. It's much more likely that one skater will receive some astronomical score if he stands out as the best ( or has the best reputation) when there isn't any comparable contender according to judges. All that only magnifies when someone has late skating order etc.

 

[mrrice]

well a bolero is not a song but a dance

and i don't understand why solo skaters want to skate on it tbh... makes no sense to me...

as for this particular bolero....one of Ravel's masterpieces, the beauty of it resides in the different colours of the instrument relaying the melody to one another... almost everyone in the orchestra gets a shot at it... it's extremely beautiful in its entirety, live at the symphony ... but unless you are T/D, or an especially gifted dance team, it should stay away from the ice rink....



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i didn't know that either.. i tuned out for a little while in the early 2000...

Sorry Bolero lovers but, you know why most solo skaters shouldn't skate to Bolero...........It's a snooze.......Granted, Michelle was not my favorite skater but, even when she skated cleanly, Bolero is just a dull piece of music. I say, go with Zorro or Man Of La Mancha and call it a day. If fact there are some good Spanish themed pieces in one of the Cirque Du Soleil shows. I'll find a piece.

Well, the show I was thinking of is called "Alegria" and it has several Spanish/Latin feeling numbers and there are actually quite a few to choose from.

 

[Violet Bliss]

People may want to ignore that but PCS score reflect the actual performance only partially. It is often used just to determine placements (not sure whether it was the intent) and that makes it inherently comparative and subjective. It's much more likely that one skater will receive some astronomical score if he stands out as the best ( or has the best reputation) when there isn't any comparable contender according to judges. All that only magnifies when someone has late skating order etc.

As per our resident authority on Math, Mr. Mathman himself, you can't add .5 to 9.75 PCS in the ISU math. Well, unless they allow 10.25 just so Hanyu can break another record, or to ensure the place held for him is unreachable.