ISU releases official agenda with proposals for 2024: age limits, jump limits and more

[AxelLover]

In defense of Patrick Chan, his first Olympics in 2010 was won by a man who attempted ZERO quads. They weren't worth enough points to be "worth it" in that version of IJS. And then, in 2011, Patrick shows up with 2 consistent quad toes and changes the game (literally) because he was doing quads while keeping his commitment to skating skills and choreography. So, people decided to do quads again to keep up with him. Dai, Javi, Yuzu, and the rest did only toes and sals for a long time, until Boyang came along with a consistent 4Lz. (Dai's attempted 4F at 2010 Worlds was 2-footed). Patrick did add a 4S in his last 2 seasons and landed a couple nice ones in competition. And then, through personal choice and circumstances (details of which we'll never know), he went back to 2 quad toes for his final season.

My point is, Patrick did not train as many types of quads because it was not expected/needed in competition in his heyday. Saying Patrick didn't do as many quads as others so he should somehow be discounted is like complaining that Paul Wylie never included a quad. Of course he didn't. Nobody has ever claimed Patrick is the best quadster ever, although he showed great consistency on his 4Ts overall throughout his career.

Exactly. Patrick didn't reinvent the quad. He reinvented the "overall great free skate containing two good quality quads".

 

[Mathematician]

I just tried to answer the questions you had, maybe I misunderstood or misremember but I thought you asked if we could point out any faults of Shcherbakova or Akatieva.

In general it feels our (as in you and me) discussions will always suffer from us both using global terms and thinking we are talking about everything, when really we have different skaters, disciplines and countries in mind and are actually talking about different things. I don't even really think much about the Russian girls anymore, I never cared that much and now I only watch one or two programs here and there, while they are your main focus. Mine is on skaters who are now competing internationally, and it's mostly on men. The word "quadsters" is not really one that even comes up when I think about all these things, because I'm not really thinking about Petrosyan - Sakamoto, Hendrickx, but rather Kagiyama - Siao Him Fa - Memola - Rizzo - Yamamoto - Sadovsky etc. etc.
Of course the others are on my radar, too, somehow, especially international women and Russian men, but, well, mostly I want to see great international men's events I can fully enjoy. And in general I like the current judging system, my main beef with it is the execution/judging which will not even be discussed at the coming congress.

Right well very simply put, athletes who win off jumping quads and seemingly "overshadow" skaters without quads often get ridiculed on the base of lacking artistry, choreo, SS or whatever. I was arguing that this is a false position (and it was a position taken multiple times in this thread so not a random rant). This is because most athletes (girls at least) who win on quads are also very impressive in most other areas. Someone else gave some men's stats so I cant really speak on that specifically but like I said I dont think Malinin was below par outside of jumps at all. My mentioning of Shcherbakova or Akateva are just examples of extremely complete skaters who also have quads and people seem to like internationally so I didnt think anyone would be bias to bashing them just to prove a point and so far that strategy has worked as expected (nobody would bite the bullet or could make any counter point). I wouldnt claim any skater is flawless, I wasnt saying you couldn't find a single flaw in their game as you did but they're just girls who could dominate with quads and its unlikely people would claim they arent as "artistic" (I know you hate that terminology but I'm not invoking it by my own will, it is used in discussion before I enter) or otherwise impressive in "general ice or skating skill" as the girls they outperform. Basically I dont like how people started bending the nature of the new rule to make some condescending and unfounded analysis of athletes who jumps quads.

 

[labgoat]

Exactly. Patrick didn't reinvent the quad. He reinvented the "overall great free skate containing two good quality quads".

As did your icon Denis Ten, who I consider to be one of the most beautiful skaters ever. He remains one of the most balanced skaters as well. RIP Denis - may your legacy continue to inspire others.

 

[Mathman]

Yagudin made Goebel look like he learned to skate at Kmart. No hypothetical bean-counting exercise will change that. But it seems some will go to extraordinary lengths to cover for poor skating skills. No matter what.

You are an exacting critic and a tough judge. If you think that Tim Goebel was stiff in 2002, you should have seen him in previous years before he moved to work with choreographer Lori Nichol. To be sure, he was no Yagudin, nor even a Plushenko. But he wasn't terribe in 2002.

Can we temper the hyperbole a little?

 

[gkelly]

there are plenty of pairs if you try to make them happen.. SO NAY FOR ME

Are we talking about the junior age proposals or allowing senior pairs women to be 16 instead of 17?

Especially with juniors, I'd look at how many potential pair skaters are available in small federations (especially outside of Europe where country switching could happen relatively near to home). Should the ISU make it easier or harder for remote small federations to form teams among their own skaters?

By senior level, skaters are more likely to be ready to switch countries if that's what it takes to find a partner. But it could help their search if they already have some pair skating experience.

 

[Mathman]

I dont know enough about men to counter your numbers (seems legit, maybe there is an issue with men, I dont know), but in women I see no issue that "women without quads arent going to be winning" as long as quadsters themselves have (almost) everything else too (which they had and still do have).

And yea, I said "terrible" making it easy for people to keep up the back and forth but I might as well have said "below average" (at least). I just dont want to get specific with that because people will cry subjectivity on anything that isnt a jump (ironic actually).

In men's skating, I didn't really pose any argument or even offer an opinion, just threw out some numerical observations. Quads get a lot of points. (Duh ) Men who do not back up thir quads with excellent overall skating do not win championships.

Ladies? Same thing. There are no ladies out there doing quads who are "below average" in any aspect of figure skating. These athletes are Olympic medalists, World contenders, better in every neasure than 99.999 % of all skaters in the world.

 

[saine]

Especially with juniors, I'd look at how many potential pair skaters are available in small federations (especially outside of Europe where country switching could happen relatively near to home). Should the ISU make it easier or harder for remote small federations to form teams among their own skaters?

By senior level, skaters are more likely to be ready to switch countries if that's what it takes to find a partner. But it could help their search if they already have some pair skating experience.

The ISU should be examining how ages in juniors/seniors can lead to power imbalances for teenage girls competing in pairs. That's more important than more pairs teams.

 

[4everchan]

Are we talking about the junior age proposals or allowing senior pairs women to be 16 instead of 17?

i don't like any of the proposals.... the 16 for senior is a ridiculous attempt by the USA... and no to Canada's 23 for juniors.

Especially with juniors, I'd look at how many potential pair skaters are available in small federations (especially outside of Europe where country switching could happen relatively near to home). Should the ISU make it easier or harder for remote small federations to form teams among their own skaters?

The ISU has already answered this : they cannot interfere with its members.

By senior level, skaters are more likely to be ready to switch countries if that's what it takes to find a partner. But it could help their search if they already have some pair skating experience.

same gender pairs will provide that.

 

[el henry]

All skaters at the Senior level Challengers or GP are in the top 1 percent, or even smaller, of all figure skaters.

The relevant question for me is not does Janie Jumper have "good" elements other than jumps in isolation. The question is, does Janie Jumper have the same skating skills as Ellie Edges? Does she have the same long- held centered spins as Susie Spinner? Does she have the same ability to master and present choreo as Annie Artiste?

If she does not, yet gets the same scores for those elements as other skaters, then she is overscored,

This has happened in men's skating; I don't even recognize some of the women's names mentioned here, so I can't say for women. If the new proposals help in highlighting edges, spins and choreo, as skaters may have more time to devote to them, then I am in favor.

 

[TontoK]

Only in degree of conventional preferences, I guess, and there's nothing wrong with that. I just don't have either preference based on gender, it doesn't make sense to me except in historical societal context.

I know my preferences aren't the same across genders. What can I say? I prefer Malinin to Vasiljevs, and I prefer Satoko to Trusova.

Just let me fetch my petticoat and powder my nose so I can look pretty while you chop the wood for the oven. By the way, have you heard this new song La Bamba they are playing on the radio?

You and I would be great friends in real life. My bucket list now includes sitting next to you at a high-level event and laughing and arguing for hours!

 

[Mathman]

Does Janie Jumper have the same skating skills as Ellie Edges?

I believe her name is Eelie Tedges (pronounced elite edges.).

 

[Arigato]

You ar an exacting critic and a tough judge. If you think that Tim Goebel was stiff in 2002, you should have seen him in previous years before he moved to work with choreographer Lori Nichol. To be sure, he was no Yagudin, nor even a Plushenko. But he wasn't terribe in 2002.

Can we temper the hyperbole a little?

There's nothing hyperbolic about giving an honest assessment of Goebel's skating skills. He jumped well in OLYG 2002, he didn't skate well at all. It was a shocking contrast of skill sets and I put a lot of blame on who the heck was coaching him or should I say, not coaching at all when it came to skating skills.

As for me being an exacting critic and tough judge? Guilty as charged. But at least people always know where they stand with me.

 

[Mathman]

There's nothing hyperbolic about giving an honest assessment of Goebel's skating skills. He jumped well in OLYG 2002, he didn't skate well at all. It was a shocking contrast of skill sets and I put a lot of blame on who the heck was coaching him or should I say, not coaching at all when it came to skating skills.

Well, I guess we should stop boring people with evaluations of skaters that have been retired for two decades.

But I did want to mention about Tim Goebel that a coach (Carol Heiss in this instance) has to work with the hand she is dealt. I am not an orthopedic surgeon, but Goebel was very stiff in his back and shoulders. Soon after his laudable result at the 2002 Olympics he started withdrawing from events do to medical issues. In 2004 he withdrew from NHK with extereme discomfort in his neck. Tthe only medical report that was made public was theat there were "anatomical changes to his spine." He also had to skate with orthodics in his boots (since 1998). At 2004 U.S. Nationa;s he had to withdraw after the short program because he couldn't jump.

There was speculation at the time that the flexibility exercises and workouts that his second coach, Frank Carroll, prescibed -- though they may have given a temporary boost to his presentation skills, actually made matters wprse from a medical standpoint.

Anyway, I don't think we can fault commentator Tom Hammond for saying on air, strictly about the skating, ""So Timothy Goebel, the quad king, long known for his jumping ability but often criticized for a lack of artistry. He's worked hard on it." This is nothing more nor less than stating the exact truth.

Nor do I blame the ever-ebullient Scott Hamilton for always finding something positive to say about every competitor.

But you will be happy to know that Tim went on to attend Columbia University, earning a degree in mathematics and later a master's in "marketting analytics" from New York University. Since 2016 he has worked at Google as a data analyist. (I suppose he is ine of those people who spy on our Internet activity in order to target us with ads. ).

 

[Mathman]

This has happened in men's skating. [I.e.., the scoring system does not adequately distinguish, in non-jump categories, between top competitors.]

Alas, the proposals that are before the ISU do not seem to be addressing this issue.This thread is supposedly about the details of the active proposals, but the more substantive question, “What should the ISU be trying to accomplish here?” – is more interesting.

I looked again at Yuma Kagiyama’s LP at Worlds as an example of a program that has everything. Quads? I got 4. Skating skills? I got 9.46 (beating Mr. Skating Skills Jason Brown). So, how would the proposed new rules work out?

The breakdown in terms of points was: Quads: 60.71. All other TES: 49.98. PCS: 93.61.

Under the new rules we might expect Quads: same. Other TES: He leaves out the triple flip (7.50 with second half bonus and GOE) and puts in a choreo spin (3 points?). The fall on the triple Axle would be more severely punished. Maybe a net change in non-quad TES on the order of 5 points.

PCS: same. Conceivably he might garner an additional point or two if the “one fewer jump” feature gave him some extra seconds of dazzling choreography -- not guaranteed, though. Or maybe he could use those seconds to catch a breather before the triple Axel.

To me, not much to get excited about one way or the other.

 

[4everchan]

Alas, the proposals that are before the ISU do not seem to be addressing this issue.This thread is supposedly about the details of the active proposals, but the more substantive question, “What should the ISU be trying to accomplish here?” – is more interesting.

I looked again at Yuma Kagiyama’s LP at Worlds as an example of a program that has everything. Quads? I got 4. Skating skills? I got 9.46 (beating Mr. Skating Skills Jason Brown). So, how would the proposed new rules work out?

The breakdown in terms of points was: Quads: 60.71. All other TES: 49.98. PCS: 93.61.

Under the new rules we might expect Quads: same. Other TES: He leaves out the triple flip (7.50 with second half bonus and GOE) and puts in a choreo spin (3 points?). The fall on the triple Axle would be more severely punished. Maybe a net change in non-quad TES on the order of 5 points.

PCS: same. Conceivably he might garner an additional point or two if the “one fewer jump” feature gave him some extra seconds of dazzling choreography -- not guaranteed, though. Or maybe he could use those seconds to catch a breather before the triple Axel.

To me, not much to get excited about one way or the other.

Sorry to say but this analysis is irrelevant. You cannot judge a skater's past program with new rules because that program was created to fit a specific set of rules and optimize the scoring.

 

[FlossieH]

By the way, what's the betting that the ideas that have gotten the most attention and frowns from all of us... are the ones that don't go through?

I expect that ones which which the ISU has already said it approves will be formally adopted because there will be plenty of countries which don't want to rock the boat and fall out of favour...

 

[Mathman]

Sorry to say but this analysis is irrelevant. You cannot judge a skater's past program with new rules because that program was created to fit a specific set of rules and optimize the scoring.

I think that there is no harm in speculating aboiut "what we might expect." What else is there to talk about until we see what actually happens? That way we can enjoy watching to see whether it worked out the way we expected, or whether the new season is full of surprises.

 

[Arigato]

Well, I guess we should stop boring people with evaluations of skaters that have been retired for two decades.

If the criteria for what to post is "are you boring anyone?" then perhaps the ISU could apply the same criteria to skating skills .

 

[Arigato]

Sorry to say but this analysis is irrelevant. You cannot judge a skater's past program with new rules because that program was created to fit a specific set of rules and optimize the scoring.

Reminds me of when a certain skating organization claimed their skater beat Shoma Uno's record as a junior when the rules and scoring systems were completely different.

 

[TontoK]

Sorry to say but this analysis is irrelevant. You cannot judge a skater's past program with new rules because that program was created to fit a specific set of rules and optimize the scoring.

Perhaps true. But I doubt the results of recent events would have been impacted one way or the other if the proposed changes had been in effect. Winners find a way to win, so the cream would have risen to the top anyway.

Honestly, I don't know if I'll enjoy the events as much now, but I also don't know that I won't. We'll see. But those who complain about "jump fests" will surely, 100% guaranteed, be happy now, so I look forward to not hearing that.

@Arigato brings up a good point about record comparisons being invalid. Nothing new there, the same has applied to ice dance when the requirements change, but sometimes people don't get that.