Men's Free Program, Sat. Nov. 12 at 10:55 pm EST

[Buttercup]

I certainly give Chan credit for landing quads and having high level ss, but he still has miles to go to be more competitive with his artistic presentation skills, which are not great, and his SS should not take the place of true artistry either! When Chan makes glaring mistakes, fine he should still receive fairly high PCS, but not marks through the roof. Other skaters do not always receive an equal benefit when they make mistakes. You would argue, b/c "Chan's SS are so superior." My argument is Chan should not be receiving a 20-point advantage over his competitors before he even takes the ice. He does receive this figuratively b/c it is like "written in stone" that he's supposed to be better than everyone else with all the hype, the Canadian press, Patrick himself, fawning broadcasters, and the movers and shakers looking for another "savior" to represent the sport ever since they failed to recognize how they could have promoted Michelle Kwan and her excellence to lift the sport to higher recognition and appeal, and thus bring new sources of revenue.

I think the issue has been more the hype surrounding Chan than his own comments - I mean, he's made some unfortunate ones, but I would attribute most of the hype to the media. Now, for amusement: AFAIK, Chan's first GP appearance was at 2006 TEB, when he was a couple of months shy of 16. Scroll down, and down some more, to see how the judges felt about his components at the time (scroll even further down for Takahiko, so it now has a vague link to this thread ).

I'm so with you on the bolded part, and this applies across the board, not just to Chan. SS and TR are pretty much tech marks, so really a skater's score is 70% tech.

So voidy = campy, as far as I can tell.

Well, no. Campy can be voidy, and voidy can be campy, but not necessarily. I keep returning to the same example - that of Blanc/Bouquet - because they always brought the voids. If you're not familiar with their programs, go to Youtube/Dailymotion and take a look. A pity their technique was never good enough to get them good marks. The Arribert interview that I linked to upthread is worth checking out, too.

 

[dorispulaski]

I can never see the name Bouquet without thinking of Hyacinth (Bouquet) Bucket
http://www.answers.com/topic/the-name-is-bouquet-b-u-c-k-e-t-keeping-up-appearances-tv-episode

Here's their 2010 season FD.
I never did find out what the little purses were about
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JBXBvhMAOOQ

Another FD of theirs that never made it out of French masters
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-kxk8laafnM

Their OD to French folk music
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4rE3brKunYM&feature=related

another one
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDOPhXjGzNE

 

[Buttercup]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDOPhXjGzNE

The Grand Corps Malade FD! Another one that the judges didn't get (though Igor Shpilband reportedly did). Here's a better quality link, from 2008 CoR:

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xb8kpq_zoe-blanc-pierre-loup-bouquet-2008_sport

(this is becoming very OT!)

 

[Art&Sport]

Takahashi just poosted the highest score of the season and beat the WSM by 22 points (Chan's margin's last year.). Chan just barely beat the guy who ranked tenth in the world. How is your take home message that there is no competition?

Yes, finally, Dai Taka given marks through the roof. The marks were crazy high (even Dai was amazed). But that was some amazing performance. He went for the quad and didn't land it, but like the commentators said, the rest of his performance, he made us forget that he fell on the quad effort. He was spectacular. I do think IJS is rather silly in the no-limit scoring that gets so high, it doesn't seem to have much meaning. For me 6.0 system was much more rewarding for the audience and the skaters, and it was skating's "brand." For this performance, Dai would have deserved 5.9 across the board on technique -- maybe 2 5.8s, but then at least five 6.0s for presentation!

Let's just see though what this will all mean and how things will shake out at Worlds. LOL when Terry Gannon said, "Patrick must be at home in Canada" checking this out, and going hmmmm ... (paraphrasing)

 

[Bluebonnet]

well I suppose so since everyone who loves him seems mesmerized by his "superior" SS (carved in ice; written in stone), the judges most of all. I certainly give Chan credit for landing quads and having high level ss, but he still has miles to go to be more competitive with his artistic presentation skills, which are not great, and his SS should not take the place of true artistry either!

You assumed that anyone who was mesmerized by Chan's skating was blinded and attracted by his skating skills, and skating skills only, but not his artistry. You automatically think that all those people do not know the differences between SS and artistic ability. As far as I know, no one has said that Chan's artistry was perfect. He certainly has a lot of room to grow. But his improvement in his artistic maturity shown in his new LP was dramatic from last year. No doubt that his excellent SS has helped it in a positive way. Take the example of his JO performance, he has truly carved his movement to the finger tips. Though I'm not saying that was perfect. However, it has given an initial idea of what this program might be in the later of this season which was exciting. I admit that his artistry in this LP has attracted me to watch it more than 10 times already. Although it was nothing compared with the times I watched Abbott's 2010's Ex.

Ever thought why Chan is hyped? Though I'm surprised that Chan could still have the nerves to meet such hype and expectations most of the times.

Chan still has a lot of maturing to do. And yes, I would like to see a competition. When Kwan skated, even with her legendary consistency, the judges and the media seemed to always be wanting to find someone else to beat her b/c they didn't seem to like her dominating. But she dominated through her consistency. Still it was always a competition when she skated, not a coronation. She wasn't perfect, but she maximized all of her skills and she had courage, fire, desire, and above all amazing consistency, which helped revolutionize the sport. I don't see any of that in Patrick. It's as if he feels entitled. Only recently has he himself tended to tone down the rhetoric about his "superior" assets.

I'm pissed off with his comments sometimes too but that was about two years ago. Lately, he was very much toned down and generally answered the critics on ice. Yes, there is a competition. The competition is if both Chan and Takahashi skate lights out, Chan will win. A perfect Takahashi against a flawed Chan, Takahashi will win. A perfect Chan against a flawed Takahashi, Chan will win. In short, a perfect Chan will win in any situation. But he won't be perfect all the time. So he won't win all the time. Verner caught the chance last year at CoR. Someone might have chance this year too.

 

[skatinginbc]

The competition is if both Chan and Takahashi skate lights out, Chan will win.

Even if Takahashi lands a 4flip? I guess if they both skate perfectly, the result will be very close.

 

[Bluebonnet]

Even if Takahashi lands a 4flip? I guess if they both skate perfectly, the result will be very close.

Then, like SkateFiguring said, we need to see the BV of their programs. I haven't calculated their BV yet. Also their BV might change later in the season. I guess Chan will have higher BV even if Takahashi has a perfect 4F. Chan's SS and TR will be higher. Takahashi's IN will be higher. It's going to be a close competition.

 

[skatinginbc]

Chan's SS and TR will be higher. Takahashi's IN will be higher. It's going to be a close competition.

I don't skate. All I can tell is that they both skate so smoothly that they are in a class above all others. Can you explain to me why Chan's skating skills are likely higher than Takahashi's?

 

[Layfan]

Personally, I think Patrick is plenty musical. I disagree that he skates through the music. He hits the notes and the crescendos, etc. He just doesn't naturally have that magical X factor that translates into an immediate connection to the audience the way Michelle Kwan did and, to a lesser extent, Daisuke Takahashi. But I think it's wrong to say he is not musical. In a way he is a bit like Yuna Kim. It took me a while to warm up to Yuna because while I thought her musicality was astonishing I thought her style was a little cold for the longest time. I have since changed my mind. I just appreciate her for being what she is - She is not Michelle. She is Yuna. And I feel the same way about Patrick. Patrick doesn't make me cry or really give me the chills but it is still a thrill to watch someone so smooth and technically great.

 

[leil]

there's a part to chan's fd where the notes are, for lack of a better term, fluttering. and that's exactly what his blades are doing. i think chan is working with his music more this year. he also said that last year, it was all based on technique and the athletic side. he wasn't focused on artistry. when chan has a figure skating plan he sticks with it, so we saw an endless amount of quads last year. this year, his plan is to focus on the performance. so let's wait and see.

 

[jettasian]

Even if Takahashi lands a 4flip? I guess if they both skate perfectly, the result will be very close.

Would you say that before Dai's mark in NHK? You see? I was right that the judges inflated Dai's mark to make it a competition. I mean, come on, if everyone's 20+ lower than Chan, what's the point?

I think if we are based on NHK, Chan HAS TO BE PERFECT or Dai will win.

I don't skate. All I can tell is that they both skate so smoothly that they are in a class above all others. Can you explain to me why Chan's skating skills are likely higher than Takahashi's?

Tracey Wilson said it best at SC, during Chan's last footwork sequence, nobody skates the kind of speed, the flow and the bold edges like he does.

 

[jettasian]

However, it is not written in stone that Chan is inferior in musicality and artistry to Takahashi, Abbott, and Rippon. Neither is your announcement that Daisuke and Abbott have the best programs this season. Many fans and judges beg to differ.

Is there even a point to response to someone who clearly has a bias and hates Chan on no matter what he does? Too bad there's no ignore button, I'd like to ignore some posts...

MOD NOTE: Please be aware that there IS an ignore feature as mods have stated many times before. If you feel you need to ignore a member for any reason all you need to do is go into your settings (link is in top right corner) and go into your account and edit ignore list adding a member is not difficult. The only members you cannot put on ignore are the admin & moderators. You're stuck with us! Hope this helps.

 

[jettasian]

Chan is an athlete first. I agree. But he has sufficent artistry and musicality to back him up and take him to the top. Does that matter whether or not he is the most artistic skater in the world? No! The most artistic skater couldn't be guaranteed to be the best competitor, while the best athletic abilities with sufficent artistry and musicality would be killer combination for a figure skater. Chan is one of the few who has such killer combination.:yes:

The voice to reason. I always find whether a skater has the artistry or not, it's subjective unless it's someone like Stojko. But to say Chan doesn't have the artistry is a joke. I feel that some who don't like Chan has to find something about his skate to hammer on to justify why they don't like him,

 

[chloepoco]

Is there even a point to response to someone who clearly has a bias and hates Chan on no matter what he does? Too bad there's no ignore button, I'd like to ignore some posts...

Uhh....Pot...Kettle...Black...

 

[Buttercup]

Layfan, I never got that extra special something so many people got from Kwan's skating. I mean, she was good, but no magic for me. Takahashi has been hit or miss for me; I think he can overdo the expression sometimes (hip hop Swan lake comes to mind) but this year his programs are wonderful and he's really using the music well.

Tracey Wilson said it best at SC, during Chan's last footwork sequence, nobody skates the kind of speed, the flow and the bold edges like he does.

What's a "bold" edge? BTW, I think it's fair to point out that for someone with such great edge control, Chan has had some awfully strange falls and bobbles on the non-jump parts of his programs.

GS does have an ignore option. You might end up with a lot of ignored posts, though.

Having seen some of your posts about other skaters, I am inclined to agree with chloepoco's assessment.

 

[Bluebonnet]

I don't skate. All I can tell is that they both skate so smoothly that they are in a class above all others. Can you explain to me why Chan's skating skills are likely higher than Takahashi's?

First, the judges, Chan fans, commentators, medias, and especially and significantly the fact that non-Chan fans all marvel Chan's skating skills to the point that you'll believe he is the best ever in this skill under current system.

Second, let's keep in mind the definition of skating skills:

Skating Skills
Definition: Overall skating quality: edge control and flow over the ice surface demonstrated by a command of the skating vocabulary (edges, steps, turns, etc.), the clarity of technique and use of effortless power to accelerate and vary speed.

Criteria:

•Balance, rhythmic knee action and precision of foot placement
•Flow and effortless glide
•Cleanness and sureness of deep edges, steps, turns
•Power/energy and acceleration
•Mastery of multi-directional skating
•Mastery of one-foot skating
•Equal mastery of technique by both partners shown in unison (pairs and ice dancing)
•Balance in skating ability of individual skaters (synchronized)

Then watch these videos in mute mode (I think sound will interfere with your judgement). Ignore the upper body movements. Only focus on skater's feet. See what you think? (The reason I chose these two skatings is because they were one of the best skatings for each skater)

Chan's 2011 World LP:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vo4GjP8gDok

Takahashi's 2011 NHK LP:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IevEFHTCqeo

Let's check each criteria (I gave the edge to the skater with check marks):

•Balance, rhythmic knee action and precision of foot placement Chan ✔ Takahashi
•Flow and effortless glide Chan ✔ Takahashi
•Cleanness and sureness of deep edges, steps, turns Chan ✔ Takahashi
•Power/energy and acceleration Chan ✔ Takahashi
•Mastery of multi-directional skating Chan ✔ Takahashi ✔
•Mastery of one-foot skating Chan ✔ Takahashi

I didn't mean that Takahashi wasn't good at all those criteria without marks. He was great. I only meant that I felt Chan did better.

 

[ImaginaryPogue]

I dunno, I think jettasian and Art&Sport structure their posts/arguments very similarly. Rather intersting.

 

[Kunstrijdster]

•Balance, rhythmic knee action and precision of foot placement Chan ✔ Takahashi
•Flow and effortless glide Chan ✔ Takahashi
•Cleanness and sureness of deep edges, steps, turns Chan ✔ Takahashi
•Power/energy and acceleration Chan ✔ Takahashi
•Mastery of multi-directional skating Chan ✔ Takahashi ✔
•Mastery of one-foot skating Chan ✔ Takahashi

I didn't mean that Takahashi wasn't good at all those criteria without marks. He was great. I only meant that I felt Chan did better.

Interesting, I could see Chan having a slight SS edge on Takahashi, this would probably not transform into more than a quarter or half a point. Chan seems a bit cleaner, that bullet point may go to him. I think, however, that this is also due to both skaters being difficult to compare in this regard because of their very different style of movement. Chan's style looks cleaner, it's more puristic, so to speak. This shows especially in the footwork sequences. This purism adds to Chan's SS being perceived a bit higher than Daisuke's. IMO, Chan's style just showcases all those qualities better. That would be the reason why I could have him slightly ahead, by the tiniest of margins

I see Daisuke being equal on some more bullet points, mainly point one, on which I could even see him slightly ahead. (I must add I don't use the above programmes as reference) Regarding the last bullet point, I think, IMO, one foot skating is a bit over emphasised these days. (I know first hand it takes skill, that's undisputed)
A lot of people, however, put skaters into the categories one-foot or two-foot skater according to the known skating skills (without really looking at the actual skating in the programmes), so that follows a kind of a circular logic, but that's only a minor issue I have.

 

[periperi]

Could the experts on this forum tell me how Takahiko's skating skills compare to Patrick's now that we're on the subject? Who has the better knees, stroking, edging and so forth? I can tell that they're both very efficient as they consistently make the difficult look ridiculously easy, they have plenty of flow coming out of pretty much everything they do, and they have that lean of the body that Dick Button would always say to look out for in skaters with deep edging. I don't think I'm expert enough to determine who is better though, although I've always had the impression that Takahiko has more supple knees.

Another thing I'm interested in is how the edges sound. I've heard consistently that edges that sound scratchy are not quality edges, but that edges that make more of a growling sound is what is ideal. What about how quiet the edges are? One thing that I've always noted when I read or hear accounts of those who have seen Taka in a competition or show, is how consistently it's mentioned by people that Taka's blades on the ice are so hard to hear in comparison to everyone else's. During the NHK Trophy, Terry Gannon mentioned that he couldn't even hear Taka's blades on the ice unless he was landing a jump, and Peter Carruthers noted that no other skater in the world is as quiet as he is in terms of that. What does that say about Taka's edging quality? Do quieter edges mean better edges or just that the skater is particularly light on his feet? I've always been curious.

I wonder whether I should be making a new thread for my second question especially.

 

[prettykeys]

I never got that extra special something so many people got from Kwan's skating. I mean, she was good, but no magic for me. Takahashi has been hit or miss for me; I think he can overdo the expression sometimes (hip hop Swan lake comes to mind) but this year his programs are wonderful and he's really using the music well.

Moi aussi! Except to say that I've seen the MK magic a few times, in some of her more toned-down performances (e.g. not Tosca. ) Takahashi, likewise; I did not vibe too well with the (for my preferences) excessive "showy" stuff he's done in the past, but this year both his SP and LP hit the frequency I resonate best with. I love his programs this year and they have highlighted the best aspects of his skating that others have been raving about for a long time. I mean, I could recognize how good his abilities were, but it's just this year that I have fallen.