Should the Zayak rule be modified?

[Mathman]

I have to believe that this discussion is important because someone's favorite may have been hurt by the rule.

I've heard Javier, Oda, Kulik from the old days...

I wonder... has a skater from Iceland or Argentina or Malaysia been penalized by Zayak rules... and if so, where is the outrage for them?

It's a sport. Sports have rules. If the rules change... then fine... and I believe that most on the thread are making a case for a rule change, and not simply whining.

It's fair enough.

To me, the point is this. The rules should serve the sport. The sport should not serve the rules.

The best set of rules is one under which, in so far as possible, the athlete or team that performs the best usually wins. Rules that throw a monkey wrench into the works are not good rules.

(But yeah, I did feel sorry for Oda. )

 

[padme21]

I recall Yuzuru Hanyu having to single a triple in the NHK 2014 because of that rule.

 

[MiRé]

How would football be less competitive if they changed the rule to have 10 people on a team instead of 11? What is so "competitive" about the number 11?

Ever imagined a football game with 500 players? No players would likely to train to run 90 minutes or aim for high SC%. Rules are what makes the sport competitive, and Zayak does that by limiting the number of jumps. Besides, if 2A was limited to 2 per FS, why not the rest of double jumps? It's just a matter of how mentally prepared you are.

A Kid likeCha can add 2A to his program after falling on it, so seniors really have no excuse.

 

[Bonesfan]

I recall Yuzuru Hanyu having to single a triple in the NHK 2014 because of that rule.

Yes, that was an example of avoiding Zayaking

From sequinsgalore

Music: Phantom of the Opera by Andrew Lloyd Webber

White and black jacket with silver/blue splashes, black pants and gloves, gold details

2S
3T - hard fall supposed to be 4T
3F - e
FCCoSp3p - wobbly camel
StSq
3Lz+2T - 'Rippon toe
3A+3T - ok, maybe 3T<
1A+1Lo+3S - actually good he didn't do 3A (but 2A would be better)
3Lo
3Lz - hangs on
ChSq
FSSp
CCoSp3p

 

[CarneAsada]

Ever imagined a football game with 500 players? No players would likely to train to run 90 minutes or aim for high SC%. Rules are what makes the sport competitive, and Zayak does that by limiting the number of jumps. Besides, if 2A was limited to 2 per FS, why not the rest of double jumps? It's just a matter of how mentally prepared you are.

A Kid likeCha can add 2A to his program after falling on it, so seniors really have no excuse.

How is the first sentence in any way relevant? Giving a ridiculous example doesn't invalidate the fact that the choice of 11 players instead of 10 is arbitrary. Just like why do women play out of 3 sets in tennis instead of 5. Wouldn't that make things tougher and more competitive if they were treated like men?

Maybe because 2A is the only double that's worth more than 2.2 points and most skaters don't have a 3A to mix up with their 2A anyway?

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

The best set of rules is one under which, in so far as possible, the athlete or team that performs the best usually wins. Rules that throw a monkey wrench into the works are not good rules.

The rules themselves never throw a monkey wrench in. It's the few occasions when people don't follow the rules that results are impacted. A skater can drop a placement or two if they finish one second over time. A skater can drop a few placements if they miss a spin position, one that impacts neither the difficulty or the aesthetic quality of the element. There are a ton of rules that impact results in a way that can prevent the otherwise best skater from winning. Should we throw them all out?

 

[MiRé]

How is the first sentence in any way relevant? Giving a ridiculous example doesn't invalidate the fact that the choice of 11 players instead of 10 is arbitrary. Just like why do women play out of 3 sets in tennis instead of 5. Wouldn't that make things tougher and more competitive if they were treated like men?

Maybe because 2A is the only double that's worth more than 2.2 points and most skaters don't have a 3A to mix up with their 2A anyway?

Uhm because it is possible to have 10 people in a soccer game? Obviously you don't know the rules. You can have no less than 7 but no more than 11. These are the rules all the teams abide to. There's also yellow and red cards. Players get them when they don't follow the rules. 1 Red and you're out, and gives the team 1 less players to play, a major disadvantage if your team loses 4 players. Similarly, if you fail to abide to the Zayak rule, you get 0 point. Simple as that.

Does it matter what points 2A gets? it's still a double jump, hence the name, double axel. ISU should allow 3 2A if they were to revert back and allow 3 2T or 3 2Lo

 

[Mathman]

There are a ton of rules that impact results in a way that can prevent the otherwise best skater from winning. Should we throw them all out?

Well, maybe not all of them, all at once.

It is never, ever, ever a good thing when a decision by the referee overshadows the performance of the athletes. If possible, we want the audience to leave the arena talking about the great skating they just saw, not about whether the tech panel made this call or that.

 

[Mathman]

Uhm because it is possible to have 10 people in a soccer game?

The question is, would soccer be a better game if they changed the rule to allowing a maximum of ten instead of a maximum of eleven. Would that make the game "more competitive?" Less competitive?

Does it matter what points 2A gets? it's still a double jump, hence the name, double axel.

In the official ISU rule book the double Axel is grouped with the 3T, 3S, 3Lo, 3F, and 3Lz. The triple Axel is listed as the "lowest valued quad." (See ISU communications 1861.) Is this convention wrong? Should the ISU consider changing it? Or should we just say, "Rules are ruels, Speedy knows best"?

 

[MiRé]

The question is, would soccer be a better game if they changed the rule to allowing a maximum of ten instead of a maximum of eleven. Would that make the game "more competitive?" Less competitive?

How would that be less competitive in any means? It's no doubt more competitive because you have 1 less player in the team. This would need a new strategy because unlike figure skating, soccer is a team game. I don't know what you're trying to get at TBH

In the official ISU rule book the double Axel is grouped with the 3T, 3S, 3Lo, 3F, and 3Lz. The triple Axel is listed as the "lowest valued quad." (See ISU communications 1861.) Is this convention wrong? Should the ISU consider changing it? Or should we just say, "Rules are ruels, Speedy knows best"?

That's nice, but it's still a double jump. There are limits for Quads, there are limits for Triples, and it only makes sense to have a limit doubles as well.

 

[Sandpiper]

To me, the point is this. The rules should serve the sport. The sport should not serve the rules.

The best set of rules is one under which, in so far as possible, the athlete or team that performs the best usually wins. Rules that throw a monkey wrench into the works are not good rules.

You phrased it more eloquently, and more succinctly, than I ever could.

Ever imagined a football game with 500 players? No players would likely to train to run 90 minutes or aim for high SC%. Rules are what makes the sport competitive, and Zayak does that by limiting the number of jumps. Besides, if 2A was limited to 2 per FS, why not the rest of double jumps? It's just a matter of how mentally prepared you are.

How is amending--not eliminating, amending--the Zayak rule equal to football with 500 players? The logistics make such a game impossible... does amending the Zayak rule render figure skating impossible?

Rules are amended all the time. What's the "correct" position one should take on... say, the double axel? If you think it should be unlimited, you're wrong because the rules say no. But if you think it should be limited to two... you're still wrong if you thought so before 2010, because that was the rule back then!

I guess we should all just have no opinion... :confused2:

I have to believe that this discussion is important because someone's favorite may have been hurt by the rule.

I've heard Javier, Oda, Kulik from the old days...

I wonder... has a skater from Iceland or Argentina or Malaysia been penalized by Zayak rules... and if so, where is the outrage for them?

I don't think this accusation has legs. People don't mention the skaters from Iceland/Argentina/Malaysia because--like in all things--the top contenders are who they remember. The same reason few people mention skaters from Iceland/Argentina/Malaysia in the "favourite spins" thread...

Here's what I said about Gracie's FS at Skate America:

Gold: I liked the first few seconds of the choreography... but once the jumps began, it became the same plastic smiles and one-note performance. That being said, I have no objection to her placement; her tech got destroyed due to the dumb doubles Zayak rule, so the overscored PCS were just compensation for that.

As you can tell, I am not a fan of Gracie in any shape or form. But I still object to what the current form of the Zayak* rule did to her.

*No one is saying the Zayak rule shouldn't exist. Just debating whether a doubled 3T and a Zayak is 5+ points worse than a fall--far worse than losing a level on a spin or any of the other errors named by Drivingmissdaisy.

 

[MiRé]

You phrased it more eloquently, and more succinctly, than I ever could.


How is amending--not eliminating, amending--the Zayak rule equal to football with 500 players? The logistics make such a game impossible... does amending the Zayak rule render figure skating impossible?

Rules are amended all the time. What's the "correct" position one should take on... say, the double axel? If you think it should be unlimited, you're wrong because the rules say no. But if you think it should be limited to two... you're still wrong if you thought so before 2010, because that was the rule back then!

I guess we should all just have no opinion... :confused2:

It was just an example to show that rules exist for a reason. Obviously a football game with 500 players wouldn't make any sense, but if there were no rules regarding how many players there can be, can you imagine facing a team that has 30 players vs 15 players of your own? Really, the only reason I brought that was to compare there are rules that make sport competitive

*No one is saying the Zayak rule shouldn't exist. Just debating whether a doubled 3T and a Zayak is 5+ points worse than a fall--far worse than losing a level on a spin or any of the other errors named by Drivingmissdaisy.

Here we go again, back to the debate on 3Flz vs Fall. Zayaking is a skater's fault, wrong edge is a skater's fault, falling is a skater's faults, and etc. Let's not blame the rules, rather, blame skaters for not having the right technique and good mentality

 

[MoonlightSkater]

Here we go again, back to the debate on 3Flz vs Fall. Zayaking is a skater's fault, wrong edge is a skater's fault, falling is a skater's faults, and etc. Let's not blame the rules, rather, blame skaters for not having the right technique and good mentality

Yes, but losing levels on a spin is the skater's fault, and any of the other errors are also the skater's fault. Which error is the most egregious? That is the error that should be most penalized. Is Zayaking worse than falling? If so, the current rules make sense. Or is it a relatively minor error, in comparison to all these other things that are the skater's fault? If so, perhaps the current rules need to be amended. Noone is saying it's not the skater's fault. We're just saying the penalty might be too steep.

 

[CarneAsada]

Here we go again, back to the debate on 3Flz vs Fall. Zayaking is a skater's fault, wrong edge is a skater's fault, falling is a skater's faults, and etc. Let's not blame the rules, rather, blame skaters for not having the right technique and good mentality

So if they're all mistakes and the skater's fault, you advocate, what, zero points for any one of the errors? Is that what you're implying? I honestly don't get it. The rules should reward the skater for what is accomplished, and the penalties for errors should be in proportion to the size of the error. On a calculus test, most teachers wouldn't take off many points for a silly arithmetic error at the end of an otherwise fine answer, but the same teacher would give zero credit for a blank page. Another example, not all crimes will get you a death penalty. You can say "but they knew the rules at the beginning" to both situations but there's a limit to how long you can say it before it sounds absurd.

 

[Mrs. P]

One thing to consider is the SPIRIT of the Zayak rule. Basically Elaine Zayak, on purpose, put 4 triple toe-loops in her six-triple jump World FS to win the title. She put 4 triple toeloops in because she felt less secure about her other triple jumps, namely loops and salchows. The purpose, namely, was that people attempt a wide variety of triples.

When Zayak was implemented in 1982, the quad was more of a concept, something to be done in practice, not competition. I don't think anyone would imagine that zayaks would be a problem because Javier Fernandez popped his 4S into a triple salchow or Noburnari Oda popped his 4T-3T into a 3T-3T. Or the Gracie Gold popped her 2A-3T into a 2A-2T, making her 3S-2T-2T a zayak.

Zayak was an answer to a 1982 problem. I think it's worth looking at what is the jump abuses/unbalances facing TODAY's programs and adjust the rules as fit.

 

[MiRé]

So if they're all mistakes and the skater's fault, you advocate, what, zero points for any one of the errors? Is that what you're implying? I honestly don't get it. The rules should reward the skater for what is accomplished, and the penalties for errors should be in proportion to the size of the error. On a calculus test, most teachers wouldn't take off many points for a silly arithmetic error at the end of an otherwise fine answer, but the same teacher would give zero credit for a blank page. Another example, not all crimes will get you a death penalty. You can say "but they knew the rules at the beginning" to both situations but there's a limit to how long you can say it before it sounds absurd.

Adapt the new rules. End of story.

 

[peg]

Adapt the new rules. End of story.

And yet, you seem to have a problem with people discussing exactly that.

 

[peg]

One thing to consider is the SPIRIT of the Zayak rule. Basically Elaine Zayak, on purpose, put 4 triple toe-loops in her six-triple jump World FS to win the title. She put 4 triple toeloops in because she felt less secure about her other triple jumps, namely loops and salchows. The purpose, namely, was that people attempt a wide variety of triples.

When Zayak was implemented in 1982, the quad was more of a concept, something to be done in practice, not competition. I don't think anyone would imagine that zayaks would be a problem because Javier Fernandez popped his 4S into a triple salchow or Noburnari Oda popped his 4T-3T into a 3T-3T. Or the Gracie Gold popped her 2A-3T into a 2A-2T, making her 3S-2T-2T a zayak.

Zayak was an answer to a 1982 problem. I think it's worth looking at what is the jump abuses/unbalances facing TODAY's programs and adjust the rules as fit.

:agree:

 

[ILoveFigures]

They should abandon the Zayak rule all together, and make a new rule where it is required to do four different jumps. Then you will still get variety, and a skater may be able to leave out a jump he/she doesn't feel comfortable with.

 

[Mathman]

How would that be less competitive in any means? It's no doubt more competitive because you have 1 less player in the team. This would need a new strategy because unlike figure skating, soccer is a team game. I don't know what you're trying to get at TBH

What I am objecting to is your position that the current rules must always be the best rules just because they are the rules, and that we should never discuss changing the rules because "rules are rules."

I do not see how the Zayak rules (or really, any particular set of rules) make the sport "more competitive." Sonia Henie and Cecilia College were fierce competitors who went at each other tooth and nail. Skating contests were just as competitive in 1936 as they are in 2015, the blessing of the current version of the Zayak rules notwithstanding.