State of U.S. Ladies' skating 2016-17

[andromache]

She was higher on that second triple than have seen her ever do at nationals. It's really the weakest point of her skating when she is on.

From how I've heard skaters/coaches discuss combos in interviews, if the first jump is too big then the skater won't be able to get enough speed/momentum/whatever to get the full rotation on that second jump. IIRC, it's why Gabby had issues with rotation on her 3Lz-3T - the 3Lz was too big to get the 3T around. Her 3T-3T, on the other hand, is more about distance than height. Focus on covering distance on the first jump, and getting height in the second jump. Too much height in the first jump will make the second jump more difficult to fully rotate.

I wish I remembered where/who this info came from. Could be from Jenny on TSL or another skater/coach they've had on?

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

From how I've heard skaters/coaches discuss combos in interviews, if the first jump is too big then the skater won't be able to get enough speed/momentum/whatever to get the full rotation on that second jump. IIRC, it's why Gabby had issues with rotation on her 3Lz-3T - the 3Lz was too big to get the 3T around. Her 3T-3T, on the other hand, is more about distance than height. Focus on covering distance on the first jump, and getting height in the second jump. Too much height in the first jump will make the second jump more difficult to fully rotate.

I wish I remembered where/who this info came from. Could be from Jenny on TSL or another skater/coach they've had on?

This makes a lot of sense. I sometimes wondered how Adelina could fully rotate the second 3T of her 3T-3T when she would be off in the air on the first jump, but I guess as long as she can maintain the speed she could pull it off. Surya also rotated her 3T-3T fine but was short of rotation on every other 3/3T combo. Gabby has the best 3T-3T I've ever seen, so I'm happy to see her stick with that instead of a 3Lz-3T.

 

[topaz emerald]

I met Starr at Nats and she is the sweetest thing. Do you know if she is going to Seniors next year? I thought I had heard that. One Moment in Time should be awesome! https://pic.twitter.com/uuFZmARHW2 Love this photo I got of her. She's all braces in it, but she was SO happy!!!

She is 15 years old, so maybe she will enter seniors at age 16. Nice photo Yup, I'm not too into songs with lyrics, but this one doesn't sound cheesy. It's a big song, almost five minutes long https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wx4v6cO1GMk Perhaps a piano piece would be better?

 

[topaz emerald]

No double standards. We are talking about Medvedeva vs. Karen aren't we? Medvedeva won everything as a junior in her last season. Karen was never near big junior podiums. I understand she had injuries. Karen had chances during their first joint competition at SA last season. Medvedeva just appeared and her skating was a bit rough. And her score of 206 was not in the area her scores are now. If Karen skated clean her FS she could have made a serious statement for the future. But she fell twice. Since then Medvedeva only progressed and Karen, well, she had very nice performances during this year Nationals. But that’s it. Hence, I would not compare them and would not complain about double standards. Just skate consistently clean 7 triple programs, American ladies. And I bet, judges will appreciate that in no time at all.

And 4CC just proves that. There is no comparison so far, let's be fair.

No we are talking about double standards. How do you explain Edmunds low score at olympics? And time and time again, internationally, she scored so pathetically low? And don't tell me about the so-called under-rotations or her telegraphing her opening combo jump. They did the same thing to Gracie when she skated against Lipnitskaia. The American skaters have had to work a lot harder to garner higher points versus the new Russian skaters and the Japanese. There is an obvious bias with the ISU judges against the American skaters. There I said it.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

The American skaters have had to work a lot harder to garner higher points versus the new Russian skaters and the Japanese. There is an obvious bias with the ISU judges against the American skaters. There I said it.

I don't think the Japanese have any sort of advantage over the Americans. In fact, I think their PCS is scored too low compared to US skaters.

As for the Russians, I think it's important to note that most come to seniors with very impressive achievements as juniors. Adelina, Julia L, Elena R and Evgenia all were WJGMs. Anna and Maria S were also medalists. Gracie also was a world junior medalist, and since Yuna retired, Gold has come into every event with a legitimate shot at the gold medal. I don't think Gracie is under marked. As for Karen, she only skates well at US Nationals, was 8th in her only Jr Worlds, and is consistently ranked 5th-7th in GP events. What kind of scores are you expecting her to bring in?

 

[topaz emerald]

I don't think the Japanese have any sort of advantage over the Americans. In fact, I think their PCS is scored too low compared to US skaters.

As for the Russians, I think it's important that most come to seniors with very impressive achievements as juniors. Adelina, Julia L, Elena R and Evgenia all were WJGMs. Anna and Maria S were also medalists. Gracie also was a world junior medalist, but since Yuna retired, Gold has come into every event with a legitimate shot at the gold medal. I don't think Gracie is under marked. As for Karen, she only skates well at US Nationals, was 8th in her only Jr Worlds, and is consistently ranked 5th-7th in GP events. What kind of scores are you expecting her to bring in?

I single Gracie and Poliina out because they both had the big jumps against their Russian competitors. They had the lutz-toe combo that Yuna used as her biggest weapon against Mao. Julia L. never had the those jumps yet she won time and time again. She had a huge flutz...I don't ever remember Gracie beating Julia, someone can correct me, an she was a much superior skater technically than Julia. Luck only came to Gracie after she switiched to Frank, because she knew ISU judges weren't going to give her any respect....Polina Edmunds had it all technically until ISU judges saw her as a threat and started giving her under-rotations and at one competition, she received zero points for a spin, lol. Does Evgenia have a true lutz, NO. She also PRE-ROTATES her jumps and still sets ridiculous scores...all this talk about inflation like it's ok, the ISU judges are behaving like the international bankers, inflating the currency at their discretion....Maybe I shouldn't have included the Japanese. Actually there is bias against them too.

Just watch...once Kaitlyn turns senior, they are going to do the same thing to her, find a way to suppress her scores...

 

[stella luna]

Slightly topic:, but does anyone else wonder how Polina would with Frank? She might fit his coaching method better than GG did.

No we are talking about double standards. How do you explain Edmunds low score at olympics? And time and time again, internationally, she scored so pathetically low? And don't tell me about the so-called under-rotations or her telegraphing her opening combo jump. They did the same thing to Gracie when she skated against Lipnitskaia. The American skaters have had to work a lot harder to garner higher points versus the new Russian skaters and the Japanese. There is an obvious bias with the ISU judges against the American skaters. There I said it.

 

[KatGrace1925]

I single Gracie and Poliina out because they both had the big jumps against their Russian competitors. They had the lutz-toe combo that Yuna used as her biggest weapon against Mao. Julia L. never had the those jumps yet she won time and time again. She had a huge flutz...I don't ever remember Gracie beating Julia, someone can correct me, an she was a much superior skater technically than Julia. Luck only came to Gracie after she switiched to Frank, because she knew ISU judges weren't going to give her any respect....Polina Edmunds had it all technically until ISU judges saw her as a threat and started giving her under-rotations and at one competition, she received zero points for a spin, lol. Does Evgenia have a true lutz, NO. She also PRE-ROTATES her jumps and still sets ridiculous scores...all this talk about inflation like it's ok, the ISU judges are behaving like the international bankers, inflating the currency at their discretion....Maybe I shouldn't have included the Japanese. Actually there is bias against them too.

Just watch...once Kaitlyn turns senior, they are going to do the same thing to her, find a way to suppress her scores...

This pretty much sums up how I have felt about this quad and part of the last quad as well. There are some korean girls in juniors who are getting lowballed in PCS as well despite working hard for all the tech.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

I don't ever remember Gracie beating Julia, someone can correct me, an she was a much superior skater technically than Julia.

When was there an event that Julia beat Gracie when Gracie should have won the head-to-head? 2012 Jr Worlds? 2013 Skate Canada? 2014 Worlds?

 

[topaz emerald]

Slightly topic:, but does anyone else wonder how Polina would with Frank? She might fit his coaching method better than GG did.

she probably would have.....and when she first entered seniors, I thought Frank Carroll would be a good fit for her...Polina has a true competitive spirit in her, she just lacked the package, but she almost alwasy got the job done, but no respect from ISU judges. If she was skating for russia, I don't think she would have struggled so hard against this crooked system.

 

[topaz emerald]

When was there an event that Julia beat Gracie when Gracie should have won the head-to-head? 2012 Jr Worlds? 2013 Skate Canada? 2014 Worlds?

I don't know, I just dont' recall Gracie beating julia head to head. Julia had pre-rotated jumps and bad technique (for which ISU judges punished Mao time and time again), yet she seemed to win a lot early on. I can find pics, lol

http://www3.pictures.zimbio.com/gi/Gracie+Gold+Julia+Lipnitskaia+Skate+Canada+ogpPIp36Cddl.jpg
http://www.belarus.by/apimages/711.jpg

and if it weren't for Mao in the way, Julia L. would have stood atop the podium right when she entered seniors...
http://media.gettyimages.com/photos...apan-and-carolina-kostner-picture-id481279741

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

I don't know, I just dont' recall Gracie beating julia head to head. Julia had pre-rotated jumps and bad technique (for which ISU judges punished Mao time and time again), yet she seemed to win a lot early on. I can find pics, lol

I admit that Julia's jump technique wasn't ideal; I especially disliked her bent knee on the flip/lutz take-offs. However, she is a great spinner and pre-rotation is not something that is scrutinized as much as being short at the end. I think her high scores in 2013-14 were mostly a reflection of her nailing clean program after clean program. When she became less consistent, her scores crashed. This is why it is going to be hard for skaters like Mariah or Karen to get great scores, because they haven't been able to put together consecutive strong events.

 

[KatGrace1925]

I admit that Julia's jump technique wasn't ideal; I especially disliked her bent knee on the flip/lutz take-offs. However, she is a great spinner and pre-rotation is not something that is scrutinized as much as being short at the end. I think her high scores in 2013-14 were mostly a reflection of her nailing clean program after clean program. When she became less consistent, her scores crashed. This is why it is going to be hard for skaters like Mariah or Karen to get great scores, because they haven't been able to put together consecutive strong events.

But why does their need to be multiple consecutive good programs to get higher scores? A judge should judge what is in front of them without the bias of remembering how many times someone has fallen, conversely someone who is consistently the same shouldn't get scores as if they have gotten even better after the last 5 times of the same thing.

 

[coldblueeyes]

The fact that there are people who can't see that Polina consistently underrotates some jumps is just

And Gracie was the only one of all the American girls with a clear shot at gold the entire quad. She could have won any competition she entered, and she was even set to do so in Boston. She was at home, she had the panel going for her and she could have scored enough to beat even a clean Evgenia. What she did? We all know what. The rest of the girls hardly ever have two good competitions in a row, so why should we start petitioning for them to get better scores?

Also, if you want to bring poor technique to the table, why just go for the Russians? It's not like Satoko or Rika have amazing jumps either, and they won over the American girls too, especially the former.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

But why does their need to be multiple consecutive good programs to get higher scores? A judge should judge what is in front of them without the bias of remembering how many times someone has fallen, conversely someone who is consistently the same shouldn't get scores as if they have gotten even better after the last 5 times of the same thing.

I think when you become a big follower of a skater and memorize their programs you can see improvements in their delivery and execution of the programs as the season progresses. I don't think trained experts/judges need to see them as improvements necessarily from prior events but rather I honestly suspect their intuition and recognition of subtle confidence in movement can show up thru better scoring. I think the judges have an idea at the elite level what scores they will give a skater and it's just up to the skater to build upon that or subtract from it. I don't think there is anything odd about it in a sport that is openly subjective.

 

[LRK]

From how I've heard skaters/coaches discuss combos in interviews, if the first jump is too big then the skater won't be able to get enough speed/momentum/whatever to get the full rotation on that second jump. IIRC, it's why Gabby had issues with rotation on her 3Lz-3T - the 3Lz was too big to get the 3T around. Her 3T-3T, on the other hand, is more about distance than height. Focus on covering distance on the first jump, and getting height in the second jump. Too much height in the first jump will make the second jump more difficult to fully rotate.

I wish I remembered where/who this info came from. Could be from Jenny on TSL or another skater/coach they've had on?

Just to add that during Russian Nationals, I think it was Tatiana Flade said that Liza had told her that her lutz being so big was the reason that she had difficulty putting a 3T on after it, and that her 3Lz-3T was inconsistent for that reason. (I'm sorry that I don't recall the exact wording, but I hope that this was the gist of it at least.)

 

[KatGrace1925]

I think when you become a big follower of a skater and memorize their programs you can see improvements in their delivery and execution of the programs as the season progresses. I don't think trained experts/judges need to see them as improvements necessarily from prior events but rather I honestly suspect their intuition and recognition of subtle confidence in movement can show. I think the judges have an idea at the elite level what scores they will give s skater and it's just up to the skater to build upon that or subtract from it. I don't think there is anything odd about that in a sport that is openly subjective.

But there is so much bias involved. So much political nonsense that it's pretty clear why skating has fallen so far in the states. But as you said, it is subjective. I watch skating with non skating fans quite a bit and they are completely blind to the nuances and the growth of skaters over each season.

 

[stella luna]

Nobody's starting a petition that I know of, but until GG makes a grand comeback to reclaim her throne, and realize her talent to its full potential, we should be supporting the skaters we have.

The fact that there are people who can't see that Polina consistently underrotates some jumps is just

And Gracie was the only one of all the American girls with a clear shot at gold the entire quad. She could have won any competition she entered, and she was even set to do so in Boston. She was at home, she had the panel going for her and she could have scored enough to beat even a clean Evgenia. What she did? We all know what. The rest of the girls hardly ever have two good competitions in a row, so why should we start petitioning for them to get better scores?

Also, if you want to bring poor technique to the table, why just go for the Russians? It's not like Satoko or Rika have amazing jumps either, and they won over the American girls too, especially the former.

 

[coldblueeyes]

Nobody's starting a petition that I know of, but until GG makes a grand comeback to reclaim her throne, and realize her talent to its full potential, we should be supporting the skaters we have.

I didn't say you shouldn't. But I think it contributes more to the discussion to talk about how they can be better, how they can evolve rather than pointing fingers at the competition and saying the others don't deserve their scores, when the American girls aren't even doing their own job that well in comparison.

 

[stella luna]

I get your point, but I try to be optimistic about the upcoming crowd of U.S. skaters, and dark horses. And, constructive criticism here can also lead to finger pointing.

Off topic, when I see the level of technical difficulty skaters do now compared to the top skaters of the past, it kind of boggles my mind.

I didn't say you shouldn't. But I think it contributes more to the discussion to talk about how they can be better, how they can evolve rather than pointing fingers at the competition and saying the others don't deserve their scores, when the American girls aren't even doing their own job that well in comparison.