TT choreographed both MK's LP and a new SP
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Euros 2005
Yes I was talking about Euros 2005. I am saying Irina wasnt that far ahead of the others but the PCS scores are the way the judges insure she will win. I think her PCS scores are always inflated and that is where the cheating will come in. Worlds 2005 is another example her SP was way over inflated to make sure of her win. Did she deserve to win the FS she sure did but the SP was the way the judges made sure she would win in case the FS wasnt on. Sorry I think the NJS is no better then the 6.0. I agree with Joesitz on this one the skaters get screwed.Maybe the judges are biased however I choose to belive they cheat outright.
Yes I was talking about Euros 2005. I am saying Irina wasnt that far ahead of the others but the PCS scores are the way the judges insure she will win. I think her PCS scores are always inflated and that is where the cheating will come in. Worlds 2005 is another example her SP was way over inflated to make sure of her win. Did she deserve to win the FS she sure did but the SP was the way the judges made sure she would win in case the FS wasnt on. Sorry I think the NJS is no better then the 6.0. I agree with Joesitz on this one the skaters get screwed.Maybe the judges are biased however I choose to belive they cheat outright.
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- Dec 18, 2003
cianni said:
All of this really goes to my original question. If Irina "wuz propped" at Euros 2005, who do you think should have beat her, and why? I'm not asking this because I think Irina is unbeatable. I'm not asking this because I "don't think" PCS scores are abused.
I'm just asking this. If "Euros 2005" is something we "don't want to have happen again this season" then "who should have won, and why?" That's the part of the question that to me anyway, has never been answered, that I have seen.
If Irina prayed to some higher power to have her WORST skate happen at the RIGHT time (and I have no idea if she believes in any higher power), then her prayers were answered IMO. That FS probably wouldn't have been good enough in any other comp of the season for her. Aside from "she was held up in PCS" I'm still waiting for some detail behind the opinions that suggest she should NOT have won Euros. And for me, it's not about comparing this performance of Irina's against other performances of Irina's, which were all light years better. It's about saying WHO ELSE should have won, and why - given the specific performances of that comp. (SP + LP)
DG
Doggygirl
Maybe the question should be without the inflated PCS scores who else would have won. I dont have access to the comp at present and my point is and was the PCS scores are being used to cheat so whats new. The skaters who get inflated PCS scores are the ones the judges want to insure win.
Maybe the question should be without the inflated PCS scores who else would have won. I dont have access to the comp at present and my point is and was the PCS scores are being used to cheat so whats new. The skaters who get inflated PCS scores are the ones the judges want to insure win.
Methinks the two ideas are linked.
IN OTHER CASES
I keep thinking that Euros 2005 was Irina's to lose, no matter how she did. She did manage to "save face" in the SP to make room for her uncharacteristically bad FS performance. Worlds as well. Cohen might have been 2nd but IIRC she was a fairly distant second.
As for the PCS scores- I THINK- (key word: think) - that they are about right; however, I think the judges tend to find ways to "maximize" the values (in other words, give more points to a skater with more "reputation"), therefore giving the "illusion" of "high scores". The real question would come when, if the scores were lowered to the so-called "right position", would the outcome change at all? What's important here is not so much the score, but the outcome, and as long as it's "right", no one can say anything. I think the judges are learning to understand this phenomenon, and we will not see this stop any time soon.
JMO.
Joesitz said:
Joe you are so right on about 1) and 2). 
All I see the one side arguments were that judges using PCS scores to hold up skater and poor judging in PERTICULAR phase of European(LP) and Worlds(SP), while the other side lump the argument to (SP+LP).....I don't see the overall winning of IS was the argument from the first side? .....Tired? maybe.
Red Dog
Im reading what you wrote to say the judges manipulate the scores to give the edge to the choosen winner however if they were lowered to the correct position would it be different, well we will never know cause it isnt going to happen until they get caught. Ya! your right they didnt take long to figure out how to use the system to keep the statis quo. Too bad for the sport and the skaters. I will be watching the GP this season with one of the pairs skaters one who lives in my condo building a great opportunity to get feedback directly from a skater. What fun this will be.
Im reading what you wrote to say the judges manipulate the scores to give the edge to the choosen winner however if they were lowered to the correct position would it be different, well we will never know cause it isnt going to happen until they get caught. Ya! your right they didnt take long to figure out how to use the system to keep the statis quo. Too bad for the sport and the skaters. I will be watching the GP this season with one of the pairs skaters one who lives in my condo building a great opportunity to get feedback directly from a skater. What fun this will be.
It's sad that we have to talk about judging this way, but it's sadder still for the skaters. Yes, Irina's FS score at Euros was heavily propped up in the PCS score. And at Worlds, her SP score kept her in first place even though she made two very obvious mistakes. Her SP at Euros was very good, and her FS at Worlds was extraordinary. Irina would have won Worlds without her SP score being 'tuned' to keep her in first place, because her FS was that much better than the other competitors.
A competition has more than one segment, and the performance for each segment should be judged by what it is, not what the judges wish it could be, or worse, pretend that it was.
I hope if Irina wins the OGM, she wins it because her performances truly deserve it, not because a group of judges want to give it to her to make up for her not winning the OGM in 2002.
A competition has more than one segment, and the performance for each segment should be judged by what it is, not what the judges wish it could be, or worse, pretend that it was.
I hope if Irina wins the OGM, she wins it because her performances truly deserve it, not because a group of judges want to give it to her to make up for her not winning the OGM in 2002.
I guess no one is going to asnwer Doggygirl's question because no one seems to want to deal with the fact that all those who actually watched Euro's say Irina won no doubt (same with World's); and that that particular competition (in the ladies at least) was awful because all of the skaters had mistakes...were PCS's high: my feelings, yes...what I haven't yet done is look to see if they were high for everyone or just Irina. I do recall, however, someone (can't remember who) actually showing how they could have been lower and she still would have won...
Are PCS's an area of concern to many...yes; scoring in general a concern, particularly now that judges actually have to do a ton in a short time frame, yes; biases present....yes...although i also know we use this word differently from one another on this board....does cheating occur? probably (i mean we know it has)...but the example of Euro's strikes me as a bad one...a kind of knee jerk reaction that does not examine what actually happened and how skaters were actuallys scored. To me, bad judging is bad for skating, but so is knee jerk response that inaccurately portrays what is happening.
I would rather re-hash who won world's 1996 with two superb short programs and long programs by Chen Lu and Michelle Kwan; or pairs olympic 94 or world's 99...these, to me, are much more interesting questions given just how well the skater's at the top performed...of course, that's me, and others will disagree.
Are PCS's an area of concern to many...yes; scoring in general a concern, particularly now that judges actually have to do a ton in a short time frame, yes; biases present....yes...although i also know we use this word differently from one another on this board....does cheating occur? probably (i mean we know it has)...but the example of Euro's strikes me as a bad one...a kind of knee jerk reaction that does not examine what actually happened and how skaters were actuallys scored. To me, bad judging is bad for skating, but so is knee jerk response that inaccurately portrays what is happening.
I would rather re-hash who won world's 1996 with two superb short programs and long programs by Chen Lu and Michelle Kwan; or pairs olympic 94 or world's 99...these, to me, are much more interesting questions given just how well the skater's at the top performed...of course, that's me, and others will disagree.
It's interesting that you mention that no one wants to answer DG's question. I myself saw it being dodged. But even when it was debated back right after the competition there was really no talk as to who should have won. It was just complaining that Irina won with a lackluster skate. Then, of course, we actually got to SEE the comp. afterwards. 
Yes, this is just one of those pitfalls of skating IMO. When you can make logical arguments as to who should have won the competition...when it could have gone either way...but oh well, I digress.
Yes, this is just one of those pitfalls of skating IMO. When you can make logical arguments as to who should have won the competition...when it could have gone either way...but oh well, I digress.
I don't think "Who should have won?" was the issue in Euros 2005. Even the two figure-skating magazines that came out right after Euros 2005 and referred to the issue as a "scandal" that rocked the ladies event said that Irina should have won just the same, but that her scores shouldn't have been so inflated that she gained more lead points over the second-placer after a horrible skate. They were saying that she shouldn't have been DELIBERATELY propped up to win.
It wasn't the outcome that was the issue, it was the process.
It wasn't the outcome that was the issue, it was the process.
Red Dog said:It's interesting that you mention that no one wants to answer DG's question. I myself saw it being dodged. But even when it was debated back right after the competition there was really no talk as to who should have won. It was just complaining that Irina won with a lackluster skate. Then, of course, we actually got to SEE the comp. afterwards.
Yes, this is just one of those pitfalls of skating IMO. When you can make logical arguments as to who should have won the competition...when it could have gone either way...but oh well, I digress.
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- Dec 18, 2003
JanJam said:
If Irina SHOULD have won anyway, what's the point of debating the outcome of this competition? If the outcome was a "scandal" - what exactly was the "scandal?"
If some of Irina's scores were "inflated," which ones, by how much, who wuz robbed, and what should the outcome have been? It's clear that many on the WWW thought Irina was significantly "propped" on the PCS side. I'm not even arguing that. I just haven't seen anything yet on the WWW, IMO, that rationally justifies a different winner.
That's the question IMO, that has still not been answered. And I really want to hear it!!!!!!!!! (armchair quarterback that I am LOL!)
DG- I don't think the issue is who should have won. The issue is that some people feel as if the judges marked her higher than they should have anyway, even though she deserved the win. She could still have won without the "inflated" scores. So why did the judges have to mark her so high, when her skate was so bad? I think that's the question that we have no answer to. I don't think anyone doubts that Irina should have won. If someone were to rise to the challenge, would Irina still have gotten those scores? Would she still have won, even though someone else did better than her?
The dark side is that it doesn't really matter, because the right person won. This all comes down to the judges wanting to give Irina a "gift" (like she so nicely put it in her interview afterward).
If this happens at the Olympics, you'd bet there will be a scandal. Skating cannot have two consecutive big scandals in a row. That would not be good.
The dark side is that it doesn't really matter, because the right person won. This all comes down to the judges wanting to give Irina a "gift" (like she so nicely put it in her interview afterward).
If this happens at the Olympics, you'd bet there will be a scandal. Skating cannot have two consecutive big scandals in a row. That would not be good.
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- Dec 18, 2003
Red Dog said:
That's the exact point I was trying to make. What SHOULD Irina's scores and placements have been relative to the field she was competing against? I keep hearing she was held up, but I haven't heard enough to satisfy me about who she was held up against, and exactly why?
DG
Doggygirl
I think your talking about one thing and the rest of us about another. The point isnt about Irina winning its about the judges thinking they have to inflate her scores. There are many posts here to explain what the point is. Its not who won but inflating the scores and for what reason. Can someone explain why there is the need to so. The end result is Irina gets these whopping scores as if she skates like no other. The SP scores at Worlds didnt need to be inflated her FS was wonderful and she won fair and square. This is why so many have tuned out and have lost interest in Skating. The judges are really not fooling anyone but themselves.
I think your talking about one thing and the rest of us about another. The point isnt about Irina winning its about the judges thinking they have to inflate her scores. There are many posts here to explain what the point is. Its not who won but inflating the scores and for what reason. Can someone explain why there is the need to so. The end result is Irina gets these whopping scores as if she skates like no other. The SP scores at Worlds didnt need to be inflated her FS was wonderful and she won fair and square. This is why so many have tuned out and have lost interest in Skating. The judges are really not fooling anyone but themselves.
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- Dec 18, 2003
cianni said:
I completely appreciate your point about Irina winning due to the judges inflating the scores. It's obvious that many share that opinion. I'm still trying to figure out the rationale.
If the judges DID inflate the scores, who SHOULD have won 2005 Euros, and WHY? I realize that "public opinion" is not "judges scores." I just keep seeing - over and over - how Euros 2005 for Ladies (Irina's win) was SUCH a travesty, and yet I'm STILL waiting to hear a logical explanation for WHY Irina should NOT have won, who SHOULD have won, and why?
To me "Irina's scores were inflated" is not an explanation. Who exactly wuz robbed and how? That would IMO, be a better explanation.
Or...any other rational discourse on the scoring from Euros.
DG
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- Jul 11, 2003
I did not see Euros 2005 so I am not proclaiming that Irina should not have won the contest. I consider myself very adept at judging a contest and there are a number of posters in GS who can do the same. Since I did not see the competition I will not commit to any judgement.
However, what I am reading is that her scores at Euros for the PCS were higher than what she deserved. I have always found that to be true with Irina's scores even when the 6.0 system was in use. I don't find her figure skating to have more than adequate presentation, and it was always propped up to ensure a win over the more 'artistic' skaters. It's not a difficult thing for judges to do. Your favorite skater wins the presentation or PCS but Irina's scores for the same segment are more than adequate to win because of the higher technical scores.
What I think this argument is about, is not that Irina should not have won the contest but as a matter of principal that her PCS scores were more than she deserved.
Joe
However, what I am reading is that her scores at Euros for the PCS were higher than what she deserved. I have always found that to be true with Irina's scores even when the 6.0 system was in use. I don't find her figure skating to have more than adequate presentation, and it was always propped up to ensure a win over the more 'artistic' skaters. It's not a difficult thing for judges to do. Your favorite skater wins the presentation or PCS but Irina's scores for the same segment are more than adequate to win because of the higher technical scores.
What I think this argument is about, is not that Irina should not have won the contest but as a matter of principal that her PCS scores were more than she deserved.
Joe
EXACTLY, Joe.
DG- You say that you want someone to explain to you who should have won Euros instead of Irina. But my point (and everyone else's it seems) is that that is NOT the argument. Those complaining about Euros 2005 seem to BE IN AGREEMENT that Irina won the competition. NO ONE IIRC said Irina did not deserve to win. SO, I do not think you're going to get an answer to your question- at least not now, and/or here.
