Was the ISU right to increase age limits?

[Couch Expert]

As far as I remember - main of the declared reasons for raising seniors age was preventing injuries and preserving health among kids - presumably reducing amount of quads and neccessity to train them. However in practice I can't help but notice the opposite effect of it. Here is exerpt from article about latest Jumping competition in Russia (google translated) about novice skater who suffered (new) injury there:

Kostyleva competed the day before in the individual tournament and reached bronze. And before that there was still qualification. Three days of competition in a row, and even with cascades of 3 and 5 jumps - isn’t it too much for a 12-year-old figure skater?

But that’s not all: on January 15, 16 and 18, Kostyleva performed at the Moscow Championship (short, free and elements), on January 11 and 12 at the Moscow City Cup (two programs).

Three tournaments in a row, 7 days of competitions only (this does not include training and warm-ups) - it looks like a too tough schedule even for an adult.

And look at the jumps:

3Lz, 2A, 3F-3T – short at the Moscow City Cup.

4S-2A, 4S, 3Lo, 3Lz-1Eu-3S, 3Lz-3T, 3F – free at the Moscow City Cup.

3Lz, 2A, 3F-3T – short at the Moscow championship.

4S, 4S, 4S-3T, 4S-3T - elements at the Moscow Championship.

4S-2A, 2A, 4S, 3Lo, 3Lz-3T, 3Lz-1Eu-3S, 3F – free at the Moscow Championships.

4S, 4S, 3Lz-3T, 4T – qualification of the Russian jumping championship.

4S+3T, 4S, 3Lz, 4S+3T+2A, 4S+2A, 3Lz, 4S+3T+2A+2A+2A, 4S, 4S+2A, 3Lz – final of the individual tournament at the Russian Jumping Championship.

4S-3T-2A, 3Lz-3T-2T, 4S, 4S – team competitions at the Russian jumping championship.

65 jumps in 7 days of competition almost in a row (not counting the oilers)! 21 of them are quadruple.

Her mother admitted that Lena had no chance of winning the individual tournament - she was also recovering from an injury: “Lena could not win. It is not ready yet, we will prepare for next year. She is after an injury and is on her ninth day of competition in a row (apparently, Elena’s mother also counted training - Sports.ru), yesterday at 10 pm there was an award ceremony.

Source: https://www.sports.ru/tribuna/blogs/streamofconsciousness/3216762.html (don't click if you can't tolerate photos of crying children)
And it's not something out of place in Russia - but common trend there as far as I can tell. By raising the age - competition in juniors has already increased many times over - because there are naturally much MORE juniors and junior years/tournaments now (in other words without quads it's impossible to count on victories there). Main part of figure skating (judging by longest time period average skater spend there and by quantity of skaters in one category) - after introducing new rule - became junior. With all extra stress of big sport applied to it. What are your thougths, I wonder? Was ISU right to increase age after all?

 

[4everchan]

The ISU was right raising the age. There will always be coaches and parents who want too much too fast for the children.
I don't follow jumping competitions... but yeah... having such a tournament for children will lead to some injuries for sure.

 

[Couch Expert]

The ISU was right raising the age. There will always be coaches and parents who want too much too fast for the children.

And how exactly that rule preventing it?

 

[4everchan]

And how exactly that rule preventing it?

Is the ISU sanctioning jumping competitions for children?

 

[NaVi]

She would be doing quads regardless of what the senior age is. I'm baffled how you could even draw a connection between the two.

 

[DancingCactus]

I think the main reason the ISU finally decided to increase the age limit was so that another Valieva situation won't occur, where they can't treat a suspect in a doping case or another legal matter like an adult.

Also, I don't have any statistics, but I don't think one story about one Russisn girl is enough to prove that the raised age has adversial effects?

Apart from that, what the hell did her mother think she was doing to her kid????

 

[Couch Expert]

She would be doing quads regardless of what the senior age is. I'm baffled how you could even draw a connection between the two.

That's exactly my point. Senior age rule has NOTHING to do with declared health concern. Because it's not working like that at all. If they wanted to prevent health - they would banned quads for juniors instead. It would have much more direct and obvious connection between declared goal and new rule.

Is the ISU sanctioning jumping competitions for children?

Isn't any national competition is out of ISU jurisdiction - whether it's jumping or traditional one? Anyway the problem is not in that particular competition if you read the article's excerpt carefully.

Also, I don't have any statistics, but I don't think one story about one Russisn girl is enough to prove that the raised age has adversial effects?

For Valieva it was enough though

 

[DancingCactus]

With Valieva it wasn't about her health, it was about not beingg able to properly prosecute a doping case. Apples and oranges.

 

[icewhite]

The age rule is good. But it's only a start. Figure skating is still obsessed with young skaters, especially, but not only, in Russia.
I think other measures need to follow. It cannot be enough to lean back and say "we've raised the age limit, we've done all we could".
But at the same time it must be very difficult for those who fight for better protection of children and young teenagers when there is such a strong tradition and such a backlash when these traditions are targeted.
Personally I think the JGP is fun and it's interesting to see so many skaters on such very different levels, from many different countries, so it's nice to be able to watch it - and for free. And I get that one of the reasons they started broadcasting it was to prepare the young skaters to appear in public, in front of cameras etc. But maybe it would actually be better not to broadcast these competitions. Without it, with the age limit, there would be less focus on junior skaters. What Russia or any country does with domestic novice and junior competitions is of course their own decision, but at least the ISU could stop this in their own events. Instead make senior competitions much more easily available to watch.
Also I think figure skating media should step back from the juniors. Leave them all alone, until they are seniors.
And then it would be really helpful if the national feds did no longer include juniors in their national competitions, whether it's actual nationals or something like the jumping tournament, and if everyone kept the ISU age limit for their national competitions.

 

[gkelly]

There have been a lot of discussions about raising age limits over the years, by fans and by media and of course by ISU and federatoin officials.

Many different reasons have been proposed, some of them contractory.

Do we have documentation of specifically what the ISU's (not fans' or journalists') reasoning was for raising age limits? Who actually thought it would prevent injuries?

And then it would be really helpful if the national feds did no longer include juniors in their national competitions, whether it's actual nationals or something like the jumping tournament, and if everyone kept the ISU age limit for their national competitions.

Of course national federations have national competitions at levels below Senior. Especially at Junior level, they use these events among other things to choose who will represent their country at JGP, Junior Worlds, and other junior-level internationals.

It's not realistic to ask that skaters will not be able to compete at all, or not at a national level, until they're 17.

Some federations allow skaters who are too young for senior internationals to compete senior at the national level -- is that what you mean? Don't let junior-age skaters* who are too young for senior compete nationally against seniors?

Other federations may strictly follow the ISU age limits.

For smaller federations, the only way to get a meaningful competition at senior level may be to include younger skaters who have elite-level skills.

*Even with the raised age minimum for seniors, there is still an overlap of a couple of years for skaters who are at the upper end of junior age eligibility and lower end of senior eligibility -- 17- and 18-year-olds will still be able to do either or both as of next year. This year, 16-year-olds are still allowed in seniors as part of the phasing-in process.

 

[icewhite]

There have been a lot of fan discussions about raising age limits over the years, by fans and by media and of course by ISU and federatoin officials.

Many different reasons have been proposed, some of them contractory.

Do we have documentation of specifically what the ISU's (not fans' or journalists') reasoning was for raising age limits? Who actually thought it would prevent injuries?



Of course national federations have national competitions at levels below Senior. Especially at Junior level, they use these events among other things to choose who will represent their country at JGP, Junior Worlds, and other junior-level internationals.

It's not realistic to ask that skaters will not be able to compete at all, or not at a national level, until they're 17.

Some federations allow skaters who are too young for senior internationals to compete senior at the national level -- is that what you mean? Don't let junior-age skaters* who are too young for senior compete nationally against seniors?

Other federations may strictly follow the ISU age limits.

For smaller federations, the only way to get a meaningful competition at senior level may be to include younger skaters who have elite-level skills.

*Even with the raised age minimum for seniors, there is still an overlap of a couple of years for skaters who are at the upper end of junior age eligibility and lower end of senior eligibility -- 17- and 18-year-olds will still be able to do either or both as of next year. This year, 16-year-olds are still allowed in seniors as part of the phasing-in process.

Oh, yeah, of course I didn't mean they shall not compete at all but simply not against seniors.
I can see a small case being made for small feds, but usually those will be in Europe, and in Europe the travel distances are not big and you can usually reach other countries by train, so if your fed is so small you only have 1-3 junior skaters, let them compete in a circle of neighbouring countries (like some countries already do it). There may be exceptions around the world, but I'm mostly talking about Korea, Japan and European countries.

 

[4everchan]

That's exactly my point. Senior age rule has NOTHING to do with declared health concern. Because it's not working like that at all. If they wanted to prevent health - they would banned quads for juniors instead. It would have much more direct and obvious connection between declared goal and new rule.


Isn't any national competition is out of ISU jurisdiction - whether it's jumping or traditional one? Anyway the problem is not in that particular competition if you read the article's excerpt carefully.

I see contradictions in what you are saying.

The OP says the ISU change of rules doesn't prevent quads from happening too early.
Then, in the thread, there is a talk about the ISU having no power on National federations for domestic competitions.

So why then blame the change of rules? The real problem starts with the parents, the coaches and the national federations.

I have never heard about a domestic competition in Canada that is a jumping contest. I heard a lot of coaches talking about how important it is to pace yourself with quads, for instance Brian Orser has been very vocal about healthy training of young skaters.

So the problem, as I said, in my first post is not the ISU.

 

[4everchan]

The age rule is good. But it's only a start. Figure skating is still obsessed with young skaters, especially, but not only, in Russia.
I think other measures need to follow. It cannot be enough to lean back and say "we've raised the age limit, we've done all we could".
But at the same time it must be very difficult for those who fight for better protection of children and young teenagers when there is such a strong tradition and such a backlash when these traditions are targeted.
Personally I think the JGP is fun and it's interesting to see so many skaters on such very different levels, from many different countries, so it's nice to be able to watch it - and for free. And I get that one of the reasons they started broadcasting it was to prepare the young skaters to appear in public, in front of cameras etc. But maybe it would actually be better not to broadcast these competitions. Without it, with the age limit, there would be less focus on junior skaters. What Russia or any country does with domestic novice and junior competitions is of course their own decision, but at least the ISU could stop this in their own events. Instead make senior competitions much more easily available to watch.
Also I think figure skating media should step back from the juniors. Leave them all alone, until they are seniors.
And then it would be really helpful if the national feds did no longer include juniors in their national competitions, whether it's actual nationals or something like the jumping tournament, and if everyone kept the ISU age limit for their national competitions.

I agree with some of your comments but I disagree with some of the restrictions proposed in your comment, for instance no longer broadcasting junior skaters, no longer having them compete at Nationals etc... That will not fix the problem. There is no way to fix the problem of coaches and parents who are being irresponsible.

Here is a simple analogy. It's illegal to cross the street when the light is red. When raising kids, it is up to the parents to make sure their children know exactly when and how they should be crossing the street. The law exists but it's really up to the parents to take care of the safety of their children. And even then, with law and education, there will always be kids who decide to cross the street despite the danger.

See : Law (ISU) Education (Parents/coaches) Danger (this one is a shared responsibility of course, but I would add here the kids themselves.. because they can feel the pain or the injury.. and they keep pushing. I was a swimmer as a kid.... when I was feeling shoulder pain or back pain, I would take a day or two off... some of my friends back then, never missed a training... they quit with injuries... I stopped much older, injury-free)

 

[icewhite]

I agree with some of your comments but I disagree with some of the restrictions proposed in your comment, for instance no longer broadcasting junior skaters, no longer having them compete at Nationals etc... That will not fix the problem. There is no way to fix the problem of coaches and parents who are being irresponsible.

Here is a simple analogy. It's illegal to cross the street when the light is red. When raising kids, it is up to the parents to make sure their children know exactly when and how they should be crossing the street. The law exists but it's really up to the parents to take care of the safety of their children. And even then, with law and education, there will always be kids who decide to cross the street despite the danger.

See : Law (ISU) Education (Parents/coaches) Danger (this one is a shared responsibility of course, but I would add here the kids themselves.. because they can feel the pain or the injury.. and they keep pushing. I was a swimmer as a kid.... when I was feeling shoulder pain or back pain, I would take a day or two off... some of my friends back then, never missed a training... they quit with injuries... I stopped much older, injury-free)

I don't think it's the responsibility of kids or young teenagers. Especially when they are growing up in an environment of people who show them that what they care about is their sportive results. But also social media recognition can be a strong driver of motivation today.
And "up to the parents and coaches", yes, of course, but it's just in praxis very difficult to oversee that and step in, because you are getting in very private territory. Yes, there is a responsibility of parents, but there's also one of societies.
I think the number of parents and coaches interested in pushing kids and young teenagers into practicing jumps that hardly anybody will take much notice of but that are known to destroy the body fast is small.
The number of people who do so, I'm sure, rises with the number of people who give recognition and praise to this.

 

[TallyT]

I am the last person to defend the ISU, but don't blame them for the Russians' decision to have children at a jumping competition. Any adverse damage is purely on the heads of the federation in question.

 

[Couch Expert]

Then, in the thread, there is a talk about the ISU having no power on National federations for domestic competitions.

Except - it is? ISU have direct power and effect on national federations by, for example, banning their athletes from participation in international events. Which in turn changes these federations priorities making local competitions their main goal instead. Introduce new kinds of tournaments etc. Which makes training for winning these competitions as important as it was with international ones before.
Raising the age also have effect on national federations - making even local junior competitions more difficult to win and more important than they were before - because for many skaters now it would be the only competition they ever could participate before retiring (many skaters won't last beyond puberty - i.e. 16-17 y.o. - whether there is old age limit or new one). Therefore - encouraging to learn quads instead of discouraging it. If you have even speck of ambition to win something - and who would go into big sport without it? Ofcourse this effect is negligible or just absent in small feds with their "lazy" environment - but in cutthroat competitive ones with dozens contenders for each place - it's apparent and predictable IMO.

So why then blame the change of rules?

Because it was advertised (i.e. we were led to believe in a false assumption) that raising the age will discourage pushing kids to doing quads too early by parents and coaches. Whereas in fact it's just doesn't work like it was advertised at all. I repeat again - if the ISU were concerned about juniors health - they would ban quads instead. But with this roundabout reasoning behind this rule all I can see is blatant lie.

Also I think figure skating media should step back from the juniors. Leave them all alone, until they are seniors.

Basically you suggesting bury your head in the sand instead of addressing the issue directly. If you hide juniors from media - it won't solve any of their problems. All it does is that common people won't know anything about it. It's strange how your vision of "solving" the problem coincides with ISU way of doing it. Their whole raising the age solution reeked of reluctance to do anything substantial as well. Actually they did almost the same - just hid "former seniors-new juniors" with all their problems from eye of the general media focused on senior events only. If you can't see them - they don't exist. Problem solved, right?

 

[Couch Expert]

I am the last person to defend the ISU, but don't blame them for the Russians' decision to have children at a jumping competition. Any adverse damage is purely on the heads of the federation in question.

You are saying it like children don't jump in multiple traditional competitions - or like usual hour-long ice training sessions are not including even more jumps than were there.

 

[4everchan]

I don't think it's the responsibility of kids or young teenagers. Especially when they are growing up in an environment of people who show them that what they care about is their sportive results. But also social media recognition can be a strong driver of motivation today.
And "up to the parents and coaches", yes, of course, but it's just in praxis very difficult to oversee that and step in, because you are getting in very private territory. Yes, there is a responsibility of parents, but there's also one of societies.
I think the number of parents and coaches interested in pushing kids and young teenagers into practicing jumps that hardly anybody will take much notice of but that are known to destroy the body fast is small.
The number of people who do so, I'm sure, rises with the number of people who give recognition and praise to this.

Note that I said, even with all the care given by everyone, some kids may exaggerate when it goes to training... So if that happens, it goes right away back to parents and coaches to monitor for well being.

 

[el henry]

As has been said multiple times, but louder for the people in the back...

Some poor child being injured in a domestic jumping competition because her parents, coaches, fed, whatever, were blinded by dreams of shiny gold only supports the ISU decision to raise the age limit.

Another traffic analogy:

The speed limit is reduced to 40 mph at a particularly dangerous curve. Some fool drives the curve at 90 mph and wrecks his car and hurts himself.

There will always be fools who drive too fast. But that fact supports imposing a speed limit on the curve, not removing it. The same for blinded parents and coaches who want to push kids too far too fast. That only supports the decision raising the age limit, it surely does not argue against it.

 

[midori green]

I think national feds shouldn't allow skaters to compete as seniors at nationals until the season before they're internationally elligible. So many people are still focused on the young jumping phenoms, which is largely due to prepubescent anatomy. I think they should ban (or drastically limit) quads at the junior level and probably also raise the minimum age for junior.

I don't think the Russian jumping competition is indicative of anything, though. I think they'd have novices and juniors doing quads regardless of international age limits and program regulations.