What is your subjective and personal definition of art in figure skating?

[Mathematician]

Already, performing arts and art are different things.

*citation needed*

I'll let Vladimir Horowitz know he is not actually an artist...

 

[TallyT]

However, I wonder if we would think of figure skating as artistic without the music and fancy costumes? Trying to imagine the discipline without these...

There are (or were, I don't know if they are still on youtube, I voraciously download) videos of some of our finest in practice or UA, without the music, the only sound being the scratching of blade on ice. They can be mesmerising and yes, artistic. It does depend on the skater and their gift for movement.

 

[4everchan]

*citation needed*

I'll let Vladimir Horowitz know he is not actually an artist...

The difference between performing arts and art is simple and well known. You can read about it anywhere... Ask Google if you don't trust my knowledge. Performing arts happen live and are witnessed by those present. Art is intemporal and eternal. In that sense, music can belong to either. The composer is the creator of the artwork. The performer is the performing artist. Horowitz is an artist of course, of the performing kind, though he did compose if I recall so he'd be considered both a performer and a composer.

In my language, I refer to myself as "interprète" not "artiste". In the end, feel free to call skaters artists if you wish to do so. I will not, and that's all good.

 

[4everchan]

There are (or were, I don't know if they are still on youtube, I voraciously download) videos of some of our finest in practice or UA, without the music, the only sound being the scratching of blade on ice. They can be mesmerising and yes, artistic. It does depend on the skater and their gift for movement.

Of course. This happens every day at the rink. Skaters will practice without music and costume. Normal. And yes, skating can be beautiful. I wouldn't go as far as calling that art but that's just me

 

[Magill]

Well, in the end of the day, as they say, art, just like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder

 

[4everchan]

Well, in the end of the day, as they say, art, just like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder

if you say so. Art and beauty are such different concepts but if you feel like they are the same, no wonder we cannot agree on this.

 

[Magill]

if you say so. Art and beauty are such different concepts but if you feel like they are the same, no wonder we cannot agree on this.

It's not me saying that. As I said, it's a quote. And it is not to say they are the same but that they are both, different as they are, sharing the common feature of "being in the eye of the beholder". You do not need to be the same to share common features.
Sometimes even the opposites have some features in common. And art and beauty, of course , are not the same but are not opposites, either.

 

[TallyT]

Of course. This happens every day at the rink. Skaters will practice without music and costume.

But not always artistic.

And yes, skating can be beautiful. I wouldn't go as far as calling that art but that's just me

Sometimes, just sometimes... I would. It's not just beauty either (I recall the first time I saw pottery by the Martin brothers on Antiques Roadshow. Ummmmm. But by god does it connect with people) for me it's also emotion, connection, ideas and craft.

 

[Mathematician]

The difference between performing arts and art is simple and well known. You can read about it anywhere... Ask Google if you don't trust my knowledge. Performing arts happen live and are witnessed by those present.

The subsidiary classifications of art do not denote any disparity in artistic validity of those disciplines, which it was at least subtly implied to do earlier as to dismiss the comparison of skating and ballet, with the presence of the term "already", as if this fact is "already" a counter-point to my original artistic position on skating.

In the end, feel free to call skaters artists if you wish to do so. I will not, and that's all good.

Well I cant argue against this kind of disposition but it just didnt seem to be present earlier. It felt as if there was a subtle implication that some more sophisticated understanding of things will necessarily lead to the realization that skating is separate from the conventional, traditional arts like music.

Its frustrating because I spent a lot of time outlining and defining my ideas at the most fundamental level through a very generous, encompassing and uncombative framework to have people genuinely understand and interact with my perspective, but the opposition completely ignores any effort; there isn't even an attempt at carefully laying the foundations of their vocabulary or outlining some logical framework so others can follow along and understand. Its always just some abstract musings or non-sequitur analogies with zero specificity. The latter only even irritates me when its presented as a counter point; on its own with no implication but just admitted venting it does not bother me.

For example, I am not even implying that I disagree with the following statement, or that its in any way "wrong", but it is so vague that I wouldn't even know how to continue in unpacking it:

Art is intemporal and eternal.

What is "non-temporal" in this context to you? How is art independent of time? What do you mean by eternal? Do you mean that the platonic collective form of art is eternal? In what way is skating, for example, exempt from this phenomena then as compared to ballet or even music? Is there perhaps some way you interpret eternity even in application to individual instances of art? Again, I can't say you're "wrong" in this perspective, but I dont know what you mean specifically; in that sense I necessarily cannot even decide if I agree or disagree. It also doesn't help at all in distinguishing between skating versus other arts - I need specificity and explanation. I just don't see the effort in a real philosophical analysis at the same level which I attempted.

The main reason it frustrates me so is because I've dedicated my life to art (both compositional and "interpretive", if we for now presuppose such a distinction) and I gain zero spiritual or emotional solace from any medium of art than skating any more. I have spent thousands of hours scouring for esoteric music choices to rekindle the comfort, relatability or artistic inspiration which throughout my life almost exclusively came from music and there is zero success (I say this as a musician); same for other arts as literature which used to resonate.

So if someone wants to confess subjectivism and say they don't personally resonate with skating on an equally "artistic" level as other disciplines without dogmatisms or subliminal condescension then its impossible for me to take issue, but when people just throw down the aforementioned musings and non-sequiturs ignoring my own carefully explained framework about my favourite art form as if invalidating my own artistic journey or sophistication it is beyond offensive. What seems to be a massive disparity in effort and investment on this issue between the two sides is just sincerely very painful considering what skating has meant for me.

 

[4everchan]

whole post

the first reason why there is no wish to pursue the debate can be found in another similar thread. truly, I explained my view points for weeks in that thread, so it's not by lack of generosity or interest that I do not wish to engage further. It's simply because it's been done just a few months ago.

the second reason is because the OP is interested in everyone's own subjective definition. I saw this as an invitation for everyone to write a comment or two... separately... instead of another opportunity to yet again, debate.

@Anna K. is the OP... She can clarify what her intentions were if I am mistaken.

I will conclude saying that of course, artists. musicians, art lovers, are probably more connected to figure skating than other sports. Maybe my perspective is different because I did both to a relatively high level. I did competitive sport until I was in my twenties. Then i focused exclusively on music, which, I was obviously already doing from a young age. As a former athlete, I comprehend figure skating as a sport first and foremost. It's a question of the goals being set, the objectives, the intention behind the training.

 

[Mathematician]

the second reason is because the OP is interested in everyone's own subjective definition. I saw this as an invitation for everyone to write a comment or two... separately... instead of another opportunity to yet again, debate.

So I am assuming that this comment is confessing to the latter section of my following quote

Well I cant argue against this kind of disposition but it just didnt seem to be present earlier. It felt as if there was a subtle implication that some more sophisticated understanding of things will necessarily lead to the realization that skating is separate from the conventional, traditional arts like music.

So if someone wants to confess subjectivism and say they don't personally resonate with skating on an equally "artistic" level as other disciplines without dogmatisms or subliminal condescension then its impossible for me to take issue, but when people just throw down the aforementioned musings and non-sequiturs ignoring my own carefully explained framework about my favourite art form as if invalidating my own artistic journey or sophistication it is beyond offensive.

 

[Mathematician]

I will conclude saying that of course, artists. musicians, art lovers, are probably more connected to figure skating than other sports. Maybe my perspective is different because I did both to a relatively high level. I did competitive sport until I was in my twenties. Then i focused exclusively on music, which, I was obviously already doing from a young age. As a former athlete, I comprehend figure skating as a sport first and foremost. It's a question of the goal being sets, the objectives, the intention behind the training.

But this is totally unencompasing and your appeal to authority is irrelevant. There are so many people who are high level artists and consider skating art. In regards to sport when I trained martial arts I had no interest in winning points or doing damage even in competition, I enjoyed purely the aspect of freedom and in demonstrating the most unique and creative showing of evasion and scoring regardless of if I win or lose (as long as I dont get severely hurt of course but that is completely unhinging on the aspect of sport or competition). This is an extremely common disposition across all sports as I have gathered. So your entire argument hinges on the presupposition that every skater foremost cares about points or winning, which I just cannot imagine is true at all. Why did Surya do that back flip then? It was an expression, truly, while throwing away any care about points or competition. So you can say that in theory the fundamental purpose of the discipline is to win points but that hasnt anything to do with how it actually manifests in practice.

 

[Mathman]

About art and beauty, a starry night is beautiful and awe-inspiring. A panting of a Starry Night is art. The distinction is that “art” (from Latin ars = skill) refers to something made by human ingenuity. Plato defined visual art as “mimesis,” representation, as when you paint a picture of a bowl of fruit that looks like real fruit, getting all those shades of light and texture right.

To me the big division is between “useful arts,” now called crafts, and art that is created expressly for its beauty and emotional impact. Pottery is a useful art. In time, potters start decorating their useful pots with embellishments that do not enhance their usefulness but add to their beauty. Eventually they become so pleasing to the eye that they start to stir the emotions and even to stimulate the intellect. They are displayed in art museums and are elevated from their former duty of storing olive oil. Have they become art?

Figure skating, in the sense of strapping deer antlers to your boots so you can negotiate a frozen pond or skim along a frozen canal in winter – pretty clever, those humans! Then somebody stops in the middle of the lake and does an Ina Baur.

In my opinion, the art of music collectively would make a terrible mistake if it strayed too far from it’s defining purpose, to charm the ear. Or figure skating, to delight the eye.

(My totally and subjective opinion. )

 

[Mathematician]

In my opinion, the art of music collectively would make a terrible mistake if it strayed too far from it’s defining purpose, to charm the ear. Or figure skating, to delight the eye.

Is it straying too far from its defining purpose to console the heart?

 

[4everchan]

But this is totally unencompasing and your appeal to authority is irrelevant.

Sharing my experience as someone who did both art and sport is not an appeal to authority because it doesn't lead to an argument with which I am trying to convince anyone. I am simply sharing my own perspective... why? Simply because I believe it does define my perception on the topic. Feel free to disregard it, and in that case, there is no need to engage further.

There are so many people who are high level artists and consider skating art.

So you were blaming me because I did share my experience and called it a sophism, yet you just do that yourself...

In regards to sport when I trained martial arts I had no interest in winning points or doing damage even in competition, I enjoyed purely the aspect of freedom and in demonstrating the most unique and creative showing of evasion and scoring regardless of if I win or lose (as long as I dont get severely hurt of course but that is completely unhinging on the aspect of sport or competition). This is an extremely common disposition across all sports as I have gathered. So your entire argument hinges on the presupposition that every skater foremost cares about points or winning, which I just cannot imagine is true at all.

I made no argument about what figure skaters aim to do. I made an argument about how the sport of figure skating is built and organized differently than is commonly referred to as art.

Why did Surya do that back flip then?

To piss off the ISU That's part of the answer. Some artists are rebels. Not all rebels are artists

It was an expression, truly, while throwing away any care about points or competition. So you can say that in theory the fundamental purpose of the discipline is to win points but that hasnt anything to do with how it actually manifests in practice.

 

[Mathematician]

I made an argument about how the sport of figure skating is built and organized differently than is commonly referred to as art.

Exactly, and I addressed that specifically:

So you can say that in theory the fundamental purpose of the discipline is to win points but that hasnt anything to do with how it actually manifests in practice

So you were blaming me because I did share my experience and called it a sophism, yet you just do that yourself...

What? I didnt "blame" you for anything. It isnt sophism its just fallacious. I did not invoke it as an argument, I invoked it to demonstrate the fallaciousness of using it as a basis of any philosophical analysis of the discipline.

The point is you are profiling the entire sport on your personal experience. I have not done that. You have not said "my disposition to figure skating is that of a sport and not an art", you went further to imply that your personal experience lead you to the argument that the intrinsic essence of the discipline must be different from art. This goes beyond personal disposition but to make an encompassing claim on the essence of a discipline. If that is not your position then you can correct me.

So to continue on this same point in simultaneous response to the latter:

To piss off the ISU That's part of the answer. Some artists are rebels. Not all rebels are artists

I didnt say she was an artist. I said that she did it to express her emotions; that clearly people have purpose other than what the discipline is supposedly "built" or "organized" for. Therefore if she wants to express her anger or indignation instead of winning, maybe some athletes want to express love for someone or something in their program, or literally anything else, and there is extremely strong evidence for that being the case: how many skaters actively fight tears as they explain the essence of their programs? Are they crying cause they are so excited to get some points or something?

There are piano competitions that use point systems just like skating but the pianist is fighting tears while playing a slow and cathartic piece, like a Chopin prelude, so it seems their thoughts are not encompassed in "I really hope I get enough points from this judge for my virtuosity", despite that supposedly being their "established goal" by the rules of the competition. And yes subjective artistic metrics exist in piano competitions, but so do they in skating, so the analogy is continuous. It is extremely common that a pianist enters a competition with zero care for the point system because they believe art is far beyond such metrics, but they join anyways to demonstrate their art for an audience. In fact I have done so myself (so again is this a proof of art? No. It is a proof that subjective purpose for entering a competition overrides the "organized" or "intended" purpose of the competition - the latter is utterly irrelevant to profiling the entire discipline or the participants). It is beyond any reasonable doubt that this is a common phenomena in skating as well.


Skating must not necessarily be treated as an art by everybody, absolutely not. This is a completely idiotic perspective in any scenario. In fact I never even argued that figure skating competitions are created specifically as an art. However based off of all evidence, comparisons and analysis, it must necessarily be able to transform into an art at least for some people and purposes unless you want to throw almost all other conventional art out of the window.

 

[4everchan]

What? I didnt "blame" you for anything. It isnt sophism its just fallacious. I did not invoke it as an argument, I invoked it to demonstrate the fallaciousness of using it as a basis of any philosophical analysis of the discipline.

the issue here is that I am not using my experience to analyze the discipline but to simply say what my perception is.... read my posts again. I clearly wrote that to me, skating is not art, but I don't care if to someone else, it is... to each their own... I am not trying to convince anyone but simply sharing my perspective, which is enlightened by my own life... How can it not be ? It's a personal and subjective definition, just like it was asked in this thread.

The point is you are profiling the entire sport on your personal experience.

Read the paragraph above this again. I am sharing my perception. That's all.

I have not done that.

Maybe you should.

You have not said "my disposition to figure skating is that of a sport and not an art",

I did.,. I repeat... To me, figure skating is sport first and foremost.

you went further to imply that your personal experience lead you to the argument that the intrinsic essence of the discipline must be different from art.

that's your perception of my words but not what I said.

This goes beyond personal disposition but to make an encompassing claim on the essence of a discipline. If that is not your position then you can correct me.

I just corrected you, see how docile I can be


Moving on... I am done with this thread. I sincerely hesitated in posting at first, next time, I will listen to my instinct. It seems that someone with a strong opinion that figure skating is not art, will meet a lot of resistance. Fair enough, but life is too short for me to argue about this ever again.

 

[Mathman]

Is it straying too far from its defining purpose to console the heart?

I don't think that a musical composition or performance can console the heart without pleasing the ear.

Conversely, there are many things that touch the heart that are not art. A newborn baby's cry. A lovely sunset. These may tug at our heartstrings, but they are the opposite of art. They come to us from the natural world, not from man-made aesthetic intention.

 

[Mathman]

Is there art in figure skating?

On another thread a poster (@Tonto K) mentioned that he did not care so much for Jason Brown’s Room Were it Happens. I do. Here’s why.

I think that the program captures the spirit of the musical, which in turn captures the spirit of the historical events that it portrays. A bunch of youthful rabble-rousing visionaries prancing about doing split jumps just for the hell of it (even though they don’t get any points) while experiencing the giddy high of creating a new nation. Alexander Hamilton was 20 when he served with George Washington in 1776, 31 when he was a mover and shaker at the Constitutional Convention of 1787 and penned bombastic pamphlets (the Federalist Papers) to try to cow an unformed nation into accepting his dream of the future.

Now add in the serpent in paradise. Those same visionaries have much to atone for. The country they built was founded upon genocide of the indigenous people and the enslavement of ten million Africans.

We can’t change history. Can we learn from it? A work of art can plague the intellect as well as please the senses.

 

[Mathematician]

a strong opinion that figure skating is not art

The opinion that what? I suppose you mean a firmly held strictly athletic disposition towards figure skating as we have so cordially mutually specified and understood, since one could surely veil a problematic absolute statement in subjectivity, in that it is my opinion 1+1=3. Simply adding the elaboration to your post to be really sure other readers couldn't possibly get confused about any ostensive contradictions.

I don't think that a musical composition or performance can console the heart without pleasing the ear.

Conversely, there are many things that touch the heart that are not art. A newborn baby's cry. A lovely sunset. These may tug at our heartstrings, but they are the opposite of art. They come to us from the natural world, not from man-made aesthetic intention.

A great point!