Which ladies could land a 3A?

[Alchamei]

I'd give my two cents on Wakaba most probably. Her seems huge, maybe even more than they are in real, and seeing her 2As at JWC I think she could definietly land it. I bet she's learning it.

As mentioned, So Youn has a nice 2A but I think it's a similar case as Yuna. She had great 2A but never learned 3A. I've read somewhere that the key to learning 3A might not be the height of the jump, but rather the control of the jump. That's why Mao could learn a 3A, even though I wouldn't exactly say so seeing her 2A.

I was amazed seeing Karen's 2A, she might try as well, the same for Mirai. However, they might not be rotating fast enough. Still, I think it's good they are pushing themselves.

 

[Alchamei]

Which of the ladies could land a 3A? Most likely someone who had the jump before puberty. If you couldn't land it cleanly without a harness pre-puberty, it's highly unlikely that you'll be able to do after you're done with puberty.

Yes, I definietly agree. Mao has practiced the jump like since 10? :think:

Speaking on this topic, does any of you have idea when Midori and Tonya began to learn 3A? They landed it when they were around their 20s.

 

[ice coverage]

Which of the ladies could land a 3A? Most likely someone who had the jump before puberty. If you couldn't land it cleanly without a harness pre-puberty, it's highly unlikely that you'll be able to do after you're done with puberty.

I don't understand why it would be highly unlikely.
Men are capable of learning quads after puberty.
Is there something specific to triple axels or to ladies that would make it less likely for ladies to be able to learn triple axels after puberty?

---

Anyway, if this thread is supposed to be a laundry list of ladies working on triple axels, Mirai Nagasu and Amber Glenn are two more. Plus Vivian Le tried one at the Freezer Challenge.

 

[OS]

Yes, I definietly agree. Mao has practiced the jump like since 10? :think:

Speaking on this topic, does any of you have idea when Midori and Tonya began to learn 3A? They landed it when they were around their 20s.

Just curious when did Mao first landed it in a competition? I wonder how many successful 3A has ever been performed in ISU competitions from the ladies. Will that list be less than 10? less than 20?

It will be amazing if the next generation are able to bring it, but I am not holding my breath. Even with Liza, I was like, "Yeah right... I will believe when I see it!"
And then it was like

 

[karne]

Anyway, if this thread is supposed to be a laundry list of ladies working on triple axels, Mirai Nagasu and Amber Glenn are two more. Plus Vivian Le tried one at the Freezer Challenge.

Pretty sure the ladies that made the Bonus round were required to try one.

 

[solani]

Yes, I definietly agree. Mao has practiced the jump like since 10? :think:

Speaking on this topic, does any of you have idea when Midori and Tonya began to learn 3A? They landed it when they were around their 20s.

I don't think that Tonya has landed a 3A before puberty, but I don't remember where I heard or read that ... Midori has landed triples before her 9th birthday, so it's very likely that she was able to do a 3A before puberty although I don't think that she has. Jumping wasn't that important back then, her coaches certainly wouldn't have pushed or encouraged her to do it that early. Maybe only in a harness, to protect her from injury?
By the way, did Tonya ever use a harness? She was training in the middle of that mall, so this seems rather unlikely.
The interesting thing regarding f.e. Elizaveta's 3A is that hers only got stable after puberty.
But Mr. Mishin says you have to have the 3A before puberty as a lady and who am I do doubt him?

 

[ice coverage]

Pretty sure the ladies that made the Bonus round were required to try one.

Correct.

What I am saying is that Vivan Le attempted one in public -- as opposed to skipping the Bonus round completely (and avoiding possible injury or embarrassment).
(Going into the Bonus round, Vivian already was approx. 10.5 points ahead of Mirai.)

And Vivian's score for the triple axel was as good as Mariah Bell's: 5.50. (They both fell.)

http://goldenskate.com/forum/showth...0K-jump-comp&p=1178178&viewfull=1#post1178178
https://www.facebook.com/4244534076...3407653386/768057206626336/?type=1&permPage=1​

 

[Alchamei]

Just curious when did Mao first landed it in a competition? I wonder how many successful 3A has ever been performed in ISU competitions from the ladies. Will that list be less than 10? less than 20?

It will be amazing if the next generation are able to bring it, but I am not holding my breath. Even with Liza, I was like, "Yeah right... I will believe when I see it!"
And then it was like

Mao was 14 when she landed the 3A in competition for the first time. It was at the 2004-05 JGPF. She is the youngest female to land 3A.

https://youtu.be/SGTM6pVq8Nc?t=25s

By the way, did she really wear Midori's costume as is said in describsion?

 

[YesWay]

I'd give my two cents on Wakaba most probably. Her seems huge, maybe even more than they are in real, and seeing her 2As at JWC I think she could definietly land it. I bet she's learning it.

She said in an interview some months back that she was training it, and at that time she was about 1/4 of a rotation short on it. Apart from her athletic ability, I think she has the competitive fire and determination to make it work.

 

[Krunchii]

I'd give my two cents on Wakaba most probably. Her seems huge, maybe even more than they are in real, and seeing her 2As at JWC I think she could definietly land it. I bet she's learning it.

As mentioned, So Youn has a nice 2A but I think it's a similar case as Yuna. She had great 2A but never learned 3A. I've read somewhere that the key to learning 3A might not be the height of the jump, but rather the control of the jump. That's why Mao could learn a 3A, even though I wouldn't exactly say so seeing her 2A.

I was amazed seeing Karen's 2A, she might try as well, the same for Mirai. However, they might not be rotating fast enough. Still, I think it's good they are pushing themselves.

I read somewhere that Mishin says for women they focus too much on getting the height (with their arms) to finish the rotation on the double and that the axel relies more on the swing of your leg when you enter your jump. That's why Liza barely uses her arms for the 3A and relies more on using her legs to jump up. I think Mao has a very springy 2A with nice height, even in her exhibitions I have though that it was very good.

I agree with Wakaba and Karen, Wakaba's 2A is fantastic and I remember how huge Karen's was in her LP at Nationals. They're still young so they might have a better chance.

I don't understand why it would be highly unlikely.
Men are capable of learning quads after puberty.
Is there something specific to triple axels or to ladies that would make it less likely for ladies to be able to learn triple axels after puberty?

---

Anyway, if this thread is supposed to be a laundry list of ladies working on triple axels, Mirai Nagasu and Amber Glenn are two more. Plus Vivian Le tried one at the Freezer Challenge.

Men grow more gradually than women, for women we tend to grow a lot at once in a short period of time, our centre of gravity changes too much after and our bodies change a lot more than men after puberty so it's way harder to learn new jumps

 

[ice coverage]

... Men grow more gradually than women, for women we tend to grow a lot at once in a short period of time, our centre of gravity changes too much after and our bodies change a lot more than men after puberty so it's way harder to learn new jumps

I'm not a skater, but I still don't really understand.

If a lady is able to perform successful double axels and other triple jumps (other than the axel) after puberty (and thus has successfully adapted to the changes in her center of gravity -- the general physics of which I do understand in theory), it is non-intuitive to me that it would be "highly unlikely" (to quote adelia) for the lady to learn the triple axel after puberty.
I'm not saying that it would be easy, but skaters are capable of a lot of things that are not easy.
And I'm not saying that I think every lady would be capable of a triple axel, but with so many ladies trying them, I would like to believe that some of them eventually will be successful.

(Curious: Was Mirai known to be trying the triple axel before puberty?? Or did her first known attempts come only recently -- well after puberty?)

 

[Krunchii]

I'm not a skater, but I still don't really understand.

If a lady is able to perform successful double axels and other triple jumps (other than the axel) after puberty (and thus has successfully adapted to the changes in her center of gravity -- the general physics of which I do understand in theory), it is non-intuitive to me that it would be "highly unlikely" (to quote adelia) for the lady to learn the triple axel after puberty.
I'm not saying that it would be easy, but skaters are capable of a lot of things that are not easy.
And I'm not saying that I think every lady would be capable of a triple axel, but with so many ladies trying them, I would like to believe that some of them eventually will be successful.

(Curious: Was Mirai known to be trying the triple axel before puberty?? Or did her first known attempts come only recently -- well after puberty?)

I'm not a skater either so I don't know the details, I just know a lot of coaches and knowledgeable people have said the big changes during puberty for women are the reasons why they have a much harder time learning new jumps with more rotations. I'm guessing they somehow learn how to rotate 3 times in the air before puberty and then adjust after that. A lot of skater's jumps become smaller after they go through puberty when they adjust to their new bodies.

(Apparently it was stated in an article that she had done them as a young girl but I'm not 100% sure)

 

[largeman]

Mao was 14 when she landed the 3A in competition for the first time. It was at the 2004-05 JGPF. She is the youngest female to land 3A.

https://youtu.be/SGTM6pVq8Nc?t=25s

Mr. Mishin - tell me THAT triple axel wasn't "cleanly landed!"

 

[Li'Kitsu]

I'm not a skater either so I don't know the details, I just know a lot of coaches and knowledgeable people have said the big changes during puberty for women are the reasons why they have a much harder time learning new jumps with more rotations. I'm guessing they somehow learn how to rotate 3 times in the air before puberty and then adjust after that. A lot of skater's jumps become smaller after they go through puberty when they adjust to their new bodies.

(Apparently it was stated in an article that she had done them as a young girl but I'm not 100% sure)

Mhm... I'd understand if it was "if you were never able to land it before puberty, although you tried, you won't learn it afterwards". But I'm puzzled that it's supposedly nearly impossible for ladies to learn new jumps after puberty. If coaches like Mishin say that's how it is, I won't doubt them, but I have to admit it doesn't make sense in my head.

 

[hurrah]

Maybe what it is is that usually, in say 99% of cases, a person's jumping ability is at their peak in their pre-pubscent years, and since in most cases, that natural ability is reduced as the body matures, it makes sense to assume that if your pre-pubscent body couldn't manage to do the jump, then your adult body is even less likely to be able to successfully do the jump.

I mean, just look at how 14-year-old Mao does the triple axel, like it's nothing at all. And now, when Mao does the triple axel, you can tell that there's alot of hard work and technical training that enables her to do it. It's definitely not just natural talent.

 

[Li'Kitsu]

Maybe what it is is that usually, in say 99% of cases, a person's jumping ability is at their peak in their pre-pubscent years, and since in most cases, that natural ability is reduced as the body matures, it makes sense to assume that if your pre-pubscent body couldn't manage to do the jump, then your adult body is even less likely to be able to successfully do the jump.

I mean, just look at how 14-year-old Mao does the triple axel, like it's nothing at all. And now, when Mao does the triple axel, you can tell that there's alot of hard work and technical training that enables her to do it. It's definitely not just natural talent.

Yes, that much makes sense. But it sounds (at least to me), as if Mishin & Co are saying it's nearly impossible to learn a new jump too that you simply haven't tried pre puberty (even if you might have been able to do back then, but just never tried it).

 

[jenaj]

I don't understand why it would be highly unlikely.
Men are capable of learning quads after puberty.
Is there something specific to triple axels or to ladies that would make it less likely for ladies to be able to learn triple axels after puberty?

---

Anyway, if this thread is supposed to be a laundry list of ladies working on triple axels, Mirai Nagasu and Amber Glenn are two more. Plus Vivian Le tried one at the Freezer Challenge.

It's hardly a proven fact. Just someone's opinion.

 

[sabinfire]

It's hardly a proven fact. Just someone's opinion.

I don't know how one could go about quantifying something like this as a 'proven fact'. Has it been dis-proven? What does history tell us?

Only 6 ladies is a very small sample size to form a hypothesis, other than to say the 3A is a very rare & difficult element, and we will be very fortunate to have two ladies competing with it next season, and very likely will not see any newcomers in this area for a number of years. 3A's do not come out of nowhere.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

Mhm... I'd understand if it was "if you were never able to land it before puberty, although you tried, you won't learn it afterwards". But I'm puzzled that it's supposedly nearly impossible for ladies to learn new jumps after puberty. If coaches like Mishin say that's how it is, I won't doubt them, but I have to admit it doesn't make sense in my head.

It might be the case that he meant "if you couldn't do it before puberty, you aren't going to be able to after." We see this a lot in gymnastics. I read an interview with Svetlana Boginskaya where she talked about being able to do a triple back dismount from the bars and double layout on floor (in practice) before she had her growth sput. With skaters it might be the same situation; we see so many lose their jumps for good once they become women.

 

[npavel]

I saw Miete and Joshi Helgesson doing an almost 3A