IOC's banning of Russia from 2018 Olympics

[GGFan]

In Athletics, the whole "clean" athletes was more like a farce, wasn´t it?

You were only allowed to go, if you did not practice and reside in Russia. What if, the IOC demands this as well? If they truly believe RUSADA is bad and did not test properly, then the consequence would be that all tests by RUSADA have no value and therefore, no clean athlete would exist in Russia, as the tests there, are based on RUSADA.

At least this was the argumentation in Athletics and in the end, just two athletes did compete.

No doping test, is handed as having doped... The ISU is testing a lot, so do other federations, but if this will be sufficent?

This is an excellent question that the independent committee that will determine who will be invited to the Olympics has to answer.

RUSADA may have done some good and bad work but all of its work was compromised so we do not know what is good and what is bad. Basically the RUSADA evidence is questionable so athletes will need other means of proving they are clean.

However, sports federations have known for a while about these issues so hopefully a good number of athletes have been tested through other independent means.

 

[LRK]

In Athletics, the whole "clean" athletes was more like a farce, wasn´t it?

You were only allowed to go, if you did not practice and reside in Russia. What if, the IOC demands this as well? If they truly believe RUSADA is bad and did not test properly, then the consequence would be that all tests by RUSADA have no value and therefore, no clean athlete would exist in Russia, as the tests there, are based on RUSADA.

At least this was the argumentation in Athletics and in the end, just two athletes did compete.

No doping test, is handed as having doped... The ISU is testing a lot, so do other federations, but if this will be sufficent?

Hasn't UKAD been handling the testing of Russian athletes the last years, not RUSADA? At any rate, that was my understanding?

 

[LRK]

And today Ksenia Stolbova had this to say to all the journalists (who have apparently been pestering her and the other Russian athletes):

http://fs-gossips.com/ksenia-stolbova-we-will-compete-at-the-olympics-under-the-white-flag/

"I better get this said, it will be better if you leave us alone and let us calmly prepare for the Olympics. Because two nights in a row, from 3 o’clock till 6 am we couldn’t have rest, they have been calling us all the time.
Leave us alone, without any unnecessary questions. We will prepare for the Olympics. We will go there under the white flag. And we will defend our Motherland. We are not orphans. We have a huge great country. These matter and topic are closed."

That's right - you tell them, Ksenia! Let the poor skaters get some sleep, for goodness' sake!

 

[GGFan]

Hasn't UKAD been handling the testing of Russian athletes the last years, not RUSADA? At any rate, that was my understanding?

Yes, RUSADA has been under a compliance plan that they are not yet fulling meeting with UKAD still supervising: https://ukad.org.uk/news/article/ukad-statement-on-rusadas-recommencement-of-testing

edit: There are still big gaps in testing by RUSADA http://www.espn.com/olympics/story/...ssian-anti-doping-agency-first-10-months-2017

 

[Alex D]

Hasn't UKAD been handling the testing of Russian athletes the last years, not RUSADA? At any rate, that was my understanding?

Yes, from 2016 on, here is the announcement.

https://www.ukad.org.uk/news/article/update-on-ukad-work-in-russia

 

[qwertyskates]

This is misleading for several reasons:

1. The IOC is not a governmental body investigating crimes. They have no police or subpoena powers. They're an independent body with a charter that everyone agrees to. They more than followed their internal processes and the appellate rights are available. Bottom line: it is well within the IOC's jurisdiction to decide who it invites to the Olympics. Nothing else is required by international law.

2. State-sponsored vs. systemic doping part 1. Of course there's a difference and the Schmid report is very clear about this. They do not call it state-sponsored because there wasn't evidence to prove "who initiated or headed the scheme." But this relates back to #1: the IOC doesn't have police powers so it's not like it can subpoena the hard drives of high government officials. They have no jurisdiction. It doesn't mean that it wasn't state sponsored, but they didn't have evidence. I appreciate that they were clear about that.

3. State-sponsored vs. systemic doping part 2. They still said there was a conspiracy across the subordinated entities of the government including CSP, VNIIFK, RUSADA, Moscow and Sochi Laboratories. Basically this means that while they didn't have a smoking gun on Putin or anything, all of the government entities were engaged in wrongdoing. It is quite common that in cases like these you would have vicarious liability. Russia signed up for the Olympic Charter so it should be responsible for its subordinated entities.

4. Everyone feels for clean athletes whether Russian or otherwise. The problem is that Russia undermined the whole system by tampering with it. To date we still cannot determine everyone who is clean or not because there are huge gaps in testing. RUSADA has still not been reinstated so now the IOC and WADA are left to put puzzle pieces together to allow athletes to compete.

5. The IOC went out of its way to avoid collective punishment and balanced several competing interests. Hopefully the Russian government will actually think about its clean athletes going forward.

I have unanswered questions from the report, and if you know the answers kindly point to a good site.

For example, how did they open and close the tamper-proof bottles? I only read descriptions that it is possible but would like to see a demonstration but am unable to find. Rodchenkov said FSB "magicians" did it. McClaren said he's seen it done but why not show it so that future bottles can truly overcome this flaw?

It was done to over 1200 bottles, so this is a crucial evidence to prove it can be done. It will help to settle many of the questions in our minds.:agree:

 

[GGFan]

I have unanswered questions from the report, and if you know the answers kindly point to a good site.

For example, how did they open and close the tamper-proof bottles? I only read descriptions that it is possible but would like to see a demonstration but am unable to find. McClaren said he's seen it done but why not show it so that future bottles can truly overcome this flaw?

It was done to over 1200 bottles, so this is a crucial evidence to prove it can be done. It will help to settle many of the questions in our minds.:agree:

If you go to the last page of the Schmid Report you'll see the appendices. VII is the forensic report by a professor from University of Lausanne. It does a great job of explaining the methodology, the marks, etc.

Edit: here's the link https://stillmed.olympic.org/media/...II-ESC-LAD-Report-Prof-Champod-30-11-2017.pdf

 

[qwertyskates]

If you go to the last page of the Schmid Report you'll see the appendices. VII is the forensic report by a professor from University of Lausanne. It does a great job of explaining the methodology, the marks, etc.

Edit: here's the link https://stillmed.olympic.org/media/...II-ESC-LAD-Report-Prof-Champod-30-11-2017.pdf

Thank you, I read that already, it's described that "tools have been developed to open the bottles", a description, but an actual demo of it done at a press conference would answer so many questions. It will also help global designers to come up with a better version in the interest of clean sports.

 

[GGFan]

Thank you, I read that already, it's described that "tools have been developed to open the bottles", a description, but an actual demo of it done at a press conference would answer so many questions. It will also help global designers to come up with a better version in the interest of clean sports.

I don't think they want to put the information out there. I think it's one thing to describe it and another to provide a step-by-step guide to wrongdoing. It took them months to figure it out so can't be very easy. I'm sure the information has been shared with the manufacturer and at least we know that tampering leaves macroscopic marks.

edit: page 18-19 of the forensic report also provides illustrations of the tool and the steps, so the method is not that hard to figure out.

 

[volk]

I have unanswered questions from the report, and if you know the answers kindly point to a good site.

For example, how did they open and close the tamper-proof bottles? I only read descriptions that it is possible but would like to see a demonstration but am unable to find. Rodchenkov said FSB "magicians" did it. McClaren said he's seen it done but why not show it so that future bottles can truly overcome this flaw?

It was done to over 1200 bottles, so this is a crucial evidence to prove it can be done. It will help to settle many of the questions in our minds.:agree:

Probably because it's WADA's method and it's been done before. Probably other host Olympics nations did it before. There is no way they were able to do this without WADA knowing it. Probably USADA figured it out and forced them to expose Russia.

 

[yude]

https://www.daily.co.jp/general/2017/12/07/0010798441.shtml

Kolyada and Voronov spoke to the media about the topic in Nagoya. (Rissian→Japanese→English)

Kolyada

"I think the important thing is whether I can participate in the Olympics, not the national flag. It doesn't matter which country I'm from, to participate is important."

(about IOC's decision)
"Considering what Russia did, it was inevitable treatment. As for me, I will follow their decision and will not be there as a representative of Russia."

Voronov

"I am disappointed in IOC's decision, but I didn't go to previous Sochi Olympics. First of all, I want to fight out in the Russian Championship and take the right to become a representative. I want to go to the Olympics."

 

[dante]

"WADA refused to test the Russian tank biathlon team for doping."

Kolyada and Voronov spoke to the media about the topic in Nagoya. (Rissian→Japanese→English)

Kolyada

"I think the important thing is whether I can participate in the Olympics, not the national flag. It doesn't matter which country I'm from, to participate is important."

(about IOC's decision)
"Considering what Russia did, it was inevitable treatment. As for me, I will follow their decision and will not be there as a representative of Russia."

This double translation was completely wrong. What Mikhail actually said, is:

"Concerning the Olympic Games, I can only say one thing: I think it was the right decision to allow Russia to compete, because frankly, I cannot imagine the Olympics without the Russian team."

 

[Tahuu]

IOC will need to rely on FSFR to select the OAR team first and then IOC will test the athletes and invite them to PyeongChang, right?

 

[Mawwerg]

I still have a lot of doubts regarding this Sochi scheme. The tricks with database look truthful. It's seems effective, reliable and includes few people. However this Sochi SUPER SECRET scheme according to Rodchenkov includes about !50-100!. I can not imagine how it's possible to keep in secret something if such amount of people already know about it.
So, I'm confused.

 

[volk]

I still have a lot of doubts regarding this Sochi scheme. The tricks with database look truthful. It's seems effective, reliable and includes few people. However this Sochi SUPER SECRET scheme according to Rodchenkov includes about !50-100!. I can not imagine how it's possible to keep in secret something if such amount of people already know about it.
So, I'm confused.

Probably because it was not a secret. At least not to WADA.

 

[dante]

This whole story is just ridiculous. Each of the athletes had hundreds of negative tests before and after Sochi. Then McLaren suddenly appears with supposedly scratched tubes. Actually, no one outside his commission saw these scratches, and no one knows, wasn't it McLaren who scratched the tubes; the IOC just takes his word for it. Ah, there is also Rodchenkov who was caught destroying the samples, but instead of getting his career permanently destroyed, he got a second breath with you-know-who (see the original post).

 

[risingtrot]

While Putin might seem a bit complicated, he is a sportsman and from what I see, he values sports. I think he understands what athletes goes through and he supports them. That's what I appreciate about him. That said, I am glad that he is allowing those invited to still join although still not officially announced.

I am not sure who will pay for the athlete's expenses though. Are the Russian sponsors going to back out? Are the sponsors even allowed? So many complicated stuffs. Anyway, we will just see.

 

[dante]

P.S. Imagine that tomorrow someone says that one of Medvedeva's test tubes has a scratch, and that her 19 gold medals don't belong to her. Also, imagine that she is an independent athlete and doesn't have state support.

An independent athlete can win against an athlete, but not against bureaucrats.

 

[Mattieu]

I am not sure who will pay for the athlete's expenses though. Are the Russian sponsors going to back out? Are the sponsors even allowed? So many complicated stuffs. Anyway, we will just see.

The IOC has said that it will pay for all of the Russian athlete's flights, accommodation and food

 

[yude]

"WADA refused to test the Russian tank biathlon team for doping."




This double translation was completely wrong. What Mikhail actually said, is:

"Concerning the Olympic Games, I can only say one thing: I think it was the right decision to allow Russia to compete, because frankly, I cannot imagine the Olympics without the Russian team."

Thank you for the link, but unfortunately I can't watch the video of press conference because it is geoblocked in my country. But indeed, that part is different from the article I posted. Literal translation of "ロシアがやったことを考えれば、当然の処置” is "Considering of what Russia did, it is natural treatment". I found Kolyada's quote in other Japanese newspaper (which is trustworthy) and it said the same thing, but there might have been misunderstanding in interpreting Russian to Japanese. (or, the article itself is not about the interview in press conference since there is also Voronov's comment there, I have no idea.) But the best thing may be believing in the athlete's actual voice.

Good luck to both guys in FS in Nagoya today