Trusova and Quads

[charlotte14]

Watching Trusova skate, it was simply jaw dropping. She literally maximized the standard for ladies’ figure skating competition. Not just landing two clean different t quads, the rest of jumksbwere in the second half. her lutz was out of the level 4 step sequence! And the base values of her triple combinations can’t be any higher ; 3lz3l, 3f1l3s, 3f3t. Yes, she can improve her interpretation, spins, skating skills, but they are developed far more than the ones of any 13year old skaters’ elite skaters. Her athletic talent is beyond this world. I get the concerns for the little girls health. There have been many attempts among the girls, but she was the only successful one. At this point, I have to admit that Trusova is truly special and maybe she has very special body to do what she is doing now. How she keeps them as growing is another topic. But nobody has done what she is capable of however small and slender and young she is now. I celebrate her achievement and talent!

It is time for her choreographer and coach to step up! Trusova is a genius skater. But her current program is not genius. Give her a masterpiece she deserves skating to. She can handle anything!!!

My friend saw Sasha at Australia GP. He said she’s full of muscles close up. A very special body indeed.
Look at this Sasha burning ISU meme though https://twitter.com/neelsoman/status/972910503885406208?s=20

 

[LiamForeman]

But to be honest, all elite sports aren’t healthy for your body in the long run. The big question is, do the skaters want to medal or not? Who are more willing to sacrifice and suffer to get the results they want?

Exactly, and not just elites. EVERY person that I've kept up with from my gymnastic days has back and/or joint troubles, including me. And we were far from elite, but we still pushed ourselves to our own personal limits. Sports taken to an extreme is BAD for your body. I know this one woman who is early 30s who runs marathons who has had both knees replaced. Her goal for next year? Nope not taking it easy, she's now training for the SUPER marathon which I don't know how exactly far but probably 50 miles! Some people seem to be fine pushing themselves and accept the injuries and longterm effects. The question is is it worth it? Well that's a personal decision. Lipinski said she's fine with a hip replacement at 18 or whenever since she has her Olympic gold medal. It was worth it to her. So why should we judge these skaters who want to push themselves to unbelievable heights if that's what they choose? Upthread someone said that 13 y/os can't even imagine graduating from high school let alone think further on. In America, 13 ys/o is 8th grade and high school begins in 9th. I don't know any 13 y/o who can't think 4 years into the future about graduating. What a putdown to say that. I guess what I'm saying is don't underestimate these young skaters. The Eteri girls have seen Alina break her arm and Anna breaking her leg and Evgenia with her stress fracture, Polina was out for a season with injury, etc. They know the risks. Let them make the decision what they want. (FWIW if my kid had major injuries at a young age, I'd take them out of it, but the parents of these girls seem to condone it)

 

[Shayuki]

My friend saw Sasha at Australia GP. He said she’s full of muscles close up. A very special body indeed.

Well that much is very obvious when you see her in the EX outfit. For example here.

 

[Blades of Passion]

What do you mean? Toe pick's facing straight forward when she leaves the ice which means that she is within the allowed 180 degrees of prerotation.

LOL, no. Her toepick is all the way out to the side on the toeloop, facing the long board at the other side of the rink. It's completely obvious. Very typical "spin off the ice" cheat that so many people do now. The rules need to be changed so that all tech callers will learn to understand this and address it.

 

[Shayuki]

LOL, no. Her toepick is all the way out to the side on the toeloop, facing the long board at the other side of the rink. It's completely obvious.

Here as you can see... The first frame the toe pick leaves the ice as well as the last frame before leaving the ice + the first frame touching the ice upon landing at the end side by side.

It's barely over 180 degrees of pre-rotation if any. Definitely not "all the way to the side".

You honestly lose tons of credibility with this... I'm going to check all your calls frame by frame from now on.

 

[Tulipstar]

Watching Trusova skate, it was simply jaw dropping. She literally maximized the standard for ladies’ figure skating competition. Not just landing two clean different t quads, the rest of jumksbwere in the second half. her lutz was out of the level 4 step sequence! And the base values of her triple combinations can’t be any higher ; 3lz3l, 3f1l3s, 3f3t. Yes, she can improve her interpretation, spins, skating skills, but they are developed far more than the ones of any 13year old skaters’ elite skaters. Her athletic talent is beyond this world. I get the concerns for the little girls health. There have been many attempts among the girls, but she was the only successful one. At this point, I have to admit that Trusova is truly special and maybe she has very special body to do what she is doing now. How she keeps them as growing is another topic. But nobody has done what she is capable of however small and slender and young she is now. I celebrate her achievement and talent!

It is time for her choreographer and coach to step up! Trusova is a genius skater. But her current program is not genius. Give her a masterpiece she deserves skating to. She can handle anything!!!

I totally agree. She did a great job.
What an athlete and talent!

 

[jenaj]

But to be honest, all elite sports aren’t healthy for your body in the long run. The big question is, do the skaters want to medal or not? Who are more willing to sacrifice and suffer to get the results they want? A cake every day or a medal to remember for the rest of your life? I’d choose a cake every day and that’s why I am no elite athlete.

Other skaters with debilitating/career-ending hip injuries: Evan Lysacek and Alexei Yagudin. For the record, Satoko Miyahara had thinning bones, but it wasn't from leukopenia. That is abnormally low white blood cell count. I had that for awhile. The cause was unknown and it eventually just reversed itself. Satoko's bone problem was probably osteopenia.

 

[Blades of Passion]

Here as you can see... The first frame the toe pick leaves the ice as well as the last frame before leaving the ice + the first frame touching the ice upon landing at the end side by side.

It's barely over 180 degrees of pre-rotation if any. Definitely not "all the way to the side". You honestly lose tons of credibility with this.

You are the one who loses credibility, LOOK at the video you just linked. EXACTLY as I said, her toepick is facing the board at the other side of the rink by the time she leaves the ice. The image in the video is even paused there, you can see it clear as day!

oh and by the way, where's your nbc olympic interview or reportage?

It was aired right before the Olympics and there was a thread here about it.

 

[Shayuki]

You are the one who loses credibility, LOOK at the video you just linked. EXACTLY as I said, her toepick is facing the board at the other side of the rink by the time she leaves the ice. The image in the video is even paused there, you can see it clear as day!

So 1 frame before the final frame of takeoff the skate's facing almost directly to the right. The final frame of takeoff it faces slightly up-right. She jumps slightly up-right. On landing the angle's under 90 to the angle she was traveling.

The angle between her skates on takeoff and landing is also less than 90 degrees, even accounting for the change of camera angle.

Looking at 60FPS footage of the live speed version(non-slow mo), the final frame of take off the pick faces directly towards the direction she jumps. You can draw a line at her landing spot following the skate.

 

[Tavi...]

Exactly, and not just elites. EVERY person that I've kept up with from my gymnastic days has back and/or joint troubles, including me. And we were far from elite, but we still pushed ourselves to our own personal limits. Sports taken to an extreme is BAD for your body. I know this one woman who is early 30s who runs marathons who has had both knees replaced. Her goal for next year? Nope not taking it easy, she's now training for the SUPER marathon which I don't know how exactly far but probably 50 miles! Some people seem to be fine pushing themselves and accept the injuries and longterm effects. The question is is it worth it? Well that's a personal decision. Lipinski said she's fine with a hip replacement at 18 or whenever since she has her Olympic gold medal. It was worth it to her. So why should we judge these skaters who want to push themselves to unbelievable heights if that's what they choose? Upthread someone said that 13 y/os can't even imagine graduating from high school let alone think further on. In America, 13 ys/o is 8th grade and high school begins in 9th. I don't know any 13 y/o who can't think 4 years into the future about graduating. What a putdown to say that. I guess what I'm saying is don't underestimate these young skaters. The Eteri girls have seen Alina break her arm and Anna breaking her leg and Evgenia with her stress fracture, Polina was out for a season with injury, etc. They know the risks. Let them make the decision what they want. (FWIW if my kid had major injuries at a young age, I'd take them out of it, but the parents of these girls seem to condone it)

In most US states, a child under 18 can’t sign a contract. Do you think that kids of 11, 12, 13 have the capacity to understand the risks they’re taking with their bodies and give informed consent? I’m not sure they do.

 

[[email protected]]

YOU'RE the one that brought up this hypothetical 'American' not I. You didn't say 'what if a Canadian', or what if a French woman'. No. You said 'an American'. Your prejudice against us is more than obvious.

If it makes you happy substitute "American" by "Canadian" or "French". We can speculate about an Ivory Coast girl making 2 quads. Although this would have very little to do with reality. I have no prejudice against Americans, come on. I got my second degree in the U.S. and still have American friends from those golden times. This is an American site and most of the users are Americans. Use this as the main and only reason why I contrasted an imaginary American skater with Sasha Trusova.

 

[Shayuki]

Look at the shadow cast by the toe pick. On the second frame she's already airborne: https://streamable.com/uye8f

Look at the first landing frame in relation to the final takeoff frame: https://i.imgur.com/HrShhVw.png

Anything else?

Really, why is it me showing all the proof supporting the call made... It should be the ones against the call providing proof.

 

[[email protected]]

I think the overwhelming majority just want these young people to stay healthy and have long careers and a healthy life when they are over 40.

There are 2 very different situations that would be in line with what you wrote. 1) People wish the skaters be healthy as the opposite to be injured. Every normal not mean-spirited person would think like that. 2) People make up the theories that certain skaters should not do what they are doing because, for example, it may have effects on their health especially after they are over 40.

I have problems with the second approach as for me it is an awkward attempt to mask the outright bashing of skaters' "evil coaches". And we all know who is the main "beneficiary" of this bashing. To those who never was an athlete: all high level sports are bad for the health. I personally made it only to Russia youth team in track-n-fields and still "managed" to break my knee to the extent of giving up my athlete's career.

I am also sure that Eteri's team applies all the necessary diligence to manage the risk of injuries. But it won't go. And there will be injuries no matter what they do especially if they will keep pushing the boundaries. The only real solution is to outright ban the sports so that people have the guarantee of healthy life after 40. Or ban quads and triples - there are talks about "artistic programs". But will this sport be of interest to viewers after that? I doubt it.

 

[ancientpeas]

There are 2 very different situations that would be in line with what you wrote. 1) People wish the skaters be healthy as the opposite to be injured. Every normal not mean-spirited person would think like that. 2) People make up the theories that certain skaters should not do what they are doing because, for example, it may have effects on their health especially after they are over 40.

I have problems with the second approach as for me it is an awkward attempt to mask the outright bashing of skaters' "evil coaches". And we all know who is the main "beneficiary" of this bashing. To those who never was an athlete: all high level sports are bad for the health. I personally made it only to Russia youth team in track-n-fields and still "managed" to break my knee to the extent of giving up my athlete's career.

I am also sure that Eteri's team applies all the necessary diligence to manage the risk of injuries. But it won't go. And there will be injuries no matter what they do especially if they will keep pushing the boundaries. The only real solution is to outright ban the sports so that people have the guarantee of healthy life after 40. Or ban quads and triples - there are talks about "artistic programs". But will this sport be of interest to viewers after that? I doubt it.

Currently, in Canada, there is a lot of concerns about youth in sports and concussions. There are brand new concussion protocols brought in because of the death of a young soccer player. But unless you wrap a child in cotton batting and keep them inside you will never remove all risk of them getting hurt. And nor should it be removed. We learn through adversity and we get stronger mentally by learning to overcome. No one knows what the long term repercussions of the technical levels expected from skaters will be because there has not be enough time to adequately study it and learn how to minimize the impact. Maybe there won't be much of an impact. I hope so.

I think the other thing that kind of makes me sad on a personal level is that it often takes me time to really connect with a skater. I can like them but to actually feel strongly about them they have to have been around for awhile. My fear with Eteri's camp is a bit selfish. I worry that I'm going to really like a skater and she's just not going to be able to keep up with the others and she will disappear. The field in Russia is so deep that I'm sure that Anna P. will now have trouble getting back on the Russian national team and I am a huge supporter of hers. Also it often takes a skater time to develop their own artistic voice and if they don't stay around for awhile then they'll never get the chance. I think Evgenia is just starting to come into her own artistically. She has such a wonderful commitment to the emotional side of her skating and a willingness to put herself out there and connect with an audience that I'm sad that she might fall behind because she can't do a quad. And I know people will say "then get a quad" but if it were that easy Misha Ge and Jason Browne would have quads. Quads are hard. Triple axels are hard. I don't know. It makes me a little sad I guess.

 

[Jammers]

Lets see Trusova land those quads at 16,17 when she actually has hips then i will be a believer. Like Frank Carroll once said girls her age and build can rotate like a bat out of hell that older ladies can't when they get older and get mature bodies.

 

[Spirals for Miles]

Can we please celebrate Trusova's wonderful achievements without going on about how she's 13 and that she'll lose them? can we just wait to see what happens in a few years?

 

[Nightcrawler]

And then there are skaters from other countries who have had other injuries for other reasons. Satoko Miyahara had a broken hip which apparently was caused because she had leukopenia, a weakening of the bones caused by poor nutrition. Normally conditions like leukopenia are found in the elderly and sometimes in dancers, who tend to starve themselves to stay superthin. But it is also a danger for very young skaters whose coaches keep them on strict diets to stave off puberty. They may stay thin and be able to jump longer, but they may also be more susceptible to breaks in hips or limbs when they fall, and skaters will fall in practice, no matter how good they are.

I hate to be that guy (perks of having a medical background and being Greek), but don't you mean osteopenia? Leukopenia is a reduced number of white cells, which makes a patient prone to infection.

leukos (λευκός)=white
osto (οστό<οστούν)=bone
penia (πενία<πένης)=poverty

 

[LiamForeman]

That's obviously what she meant, whether she knew the right word or not. Yes, Satoko suffers from osteopenia and if she keeps it up will have bad osteoporosis early.

 

[louisa05]

. In America, 13 ys/o is 8th grade and high school begins in 9th. I don't know any 13 y/o who can't think 4 years into the future about graduating. What a putdown to say that. w

I'm a teacher. In the United States. A high school teacher no less.

Kids in their early teens don't think far ahead and don't see the future as being as close as it is for them. It is not a put down to note that. It is a fact about the way their brains, which are not fully developed, process things. When you talk to 9th graders in advising about graduation requirements and planning coursework to mesh with goals for college, the vast majority respond that that is "really far away" and they really haven't thought about it. Or they still have notions of being professional basketball players even though they are 5'4" and didn't make the team this year, so they expect that Coach K is going to be showing them up to recruit them to play at Duke just because that's something they want. Half of my tenth graders, living in a landlocked state and planning to attend university at home, still declare that they are going to maybe be marine biologists. Most kids don't see life after high school as something to plan for until they are juniors turning 17 and don't have realistic expectations, timelines or plans until around that time.

But, hell, what do I know? I've just been teaching in high schools and knowing a 100 or so teens a year for over 20 years.

 

[LiamForeman]

Well, that's great. However, I was also 13 once and all of my friends were already thinking about colleges before we even started 9th grade, but we were honors students. I met with my 9th grade counselor before school even started to set my class schedule perfectly because I wanted to go to Princeton. And I knew unless something else really interested me the end goal was med school. At 13. My friends were just the same. And so were my friends' kids when they were in junior high, but they also were high achievers. Sure there are the kids with no ambition who never gave college a thought, but you can't lump all 13 y/os together.