ISU Championship Allotments - Ladies

[karne]

Out of curiosity I must ask why? Figure skating seems a little behind the times in regards to creating opportunities for its athletes to capitalize on for themselves to earn a living. I only came up with this idea to provide a way to help fund an athlete that you suggested should be cut off from its federation if they earned an exemption. How would you propose this works even though I suspect you are also opposed to giving a berth in the first place. Still...I’d be open to your feedback.

I actually thought creating a little storyline for “ISU Heroes” would have made for cool tv/social media fluff. :shame:

If you think there's corruption in the sport now with federations, just you wait until you get big corporations involved, and large sums of money! Corruption galore!

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

If you think there's corruption in the sport now with federations, just you wait until you get big corporations involved, and large sums of money! Corruption galore!

This is really just way too genarilzed of a statement to mean anything. FWIW: GoPro has no history of corrupting any sports they work with. They actually help grow sports and give the athletes another platform to market themselves with little required in return.

If you brought in a chocolate bar company to help pay for a couple skaters to compete I doubt they would want more than a little exposure. I mean...don’t put your guard down but there is no need to jump off the deep end.

 

[Mango]

Why is there a need for a new event at all? Isn't the answer just to expand the existing GPs/GPF as a first step and take it from there? Only problem with this is if you start overshadowing the World Championships with the quality of skaters at the GPF - the 12, say, there would invariably be better than the final 2 flights at the World Champs, in which case what do you do, you don't want the World Champs to be overshadowed by the GPF, but then if you never do anything about the GPs, as say standards rise, you're stuck in the same old structure for ever.

Expanding GPF would be logical. Expanding the GP may have some issues but may also be doable. Mostly the issues would extend into the Challenger Series/JGP scheduling. But again, since GP events have limitations on number of athletes from a specific country there would always be a limit on how many skaters can participate. Will it be enough to cover all the athletes deemed worthy of competing?

A separate event altogether without quotas, as some desired, would give the freedom for all your top athletes to compete and have a world class competition as posters here desire. There could even be more monetary reward.

But Worlds is the focus so neither your suggestion nor mine seem to be of importance.

To be fair the title of the thread is ISU Championship allotments and the OP wanted to address fans who want to see the top level skaters who could put on a good show compete. If you want to suggest that a new event needs to be created to accomadate this then that’s great but there is no need for you to expect anyone to create this event for you. Maybe a new thread would be better for this project.

People like myself have been trying to discuss ways to create a few extra spots that would prevent high quality athletes just sitting at home that could impact the event and that is very on topic for this thread. It’s ok to disagree but I think you’re creating scenarios that are designed to just silence an on topic discussion. And for what it’s worth I’ve spent considerable effort to create solutions that keep little federations in mind. I also feel comfortable saying that I do not believe the sport is actually benefitting from keeping athletes at home that could increase the overall quality of the event. Maybe they all don’t need to go and a few spots can be created that they can compete for and earn regardless of their nationality during the season. It seems pretty reasonable to me. YMMV.

It was suggested in this thread that we come up ways to allow athletes to compete. If you are narrowing your scope to Worlds then you don't want our suggestions. Half baked ideas don't fly with me which is why I was asking for specifics about how people would want things like qualification of more athletes to happen.

If you've missed all the reasons we've given for why it's a problem to just add more spots at Worlds or even the Olympics then yes, you can continue to wonder about why we even got into a discussion about an alternate event.

I feel like I'm trying to reason with a wall here. What's the point in a discussion anyways?

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

Half baked ideas don't fly with me which is why I was asking for specifics about how people would want things like qualification of more athletes to happen.

If you've missed all the reasons we've given for why it's a problem to just add more spots at Worlds or even the Olympics then yes, you can continue to wonder about why we even got into a discussion about an alternate event.

I feel like I'm trying to reason with a wall here. What's the point in a discussion anyways?

Look..you’re just being insulting now. I’m sorry if I’ve upset you to the point that you feel the need to flame me and my ideas.

Let’s just move on because the part I originally quoted you on tonight was in response to expanding the WC’s and not being able to expand it in only one discipline (ladies). That miscommunication has lead to apparent frustration.

 

[ice coverage]

Out of curiosity I must ask why? Figure skating seems a little behind the times in regards to creating opportunities for its athletes to capitalize on for themselves to earn a living. I only came up with this idea to provide a way to help fund an athlete that you suggested should be cut off from its federation if they earned an exemption. How would you propose this works even though I suspect you are also opposed to giving a berth in the first place. Still...I’d be open to your feedback.

I actually thought creating a little storyline for “ISU Heroes” would have made for cool tv/social media fluff. :shame:

I am not opposed to figure skaters earning a living.
I am not opposed to figure skaters receiving funding from sponsors.

Going back to Nathan as an example (just cuz I am familiar with his 2017-18 sponsorships):

Suppose that Kellogg's decided to continue its sponsorship of Nathan in 2018-19 (although I have no idea whether it really will). If Nathan hypothetically were to be given an "extra" spot at 2019 Worlds that is not a USFS spot -- and if he therefore were responsible for covering his own Worlds-related costs (without USFS funding) -- I would have no problem with him using funds from Kellogg's for that purpose.​

Anyone who accepts an "extra" spot at Worlds should be fending for her- or himself, IMO.
If the skater already has existing funding from sponsors, fine.

I think the (enormous, IMO) benefit of an "extra" spot should have big strings attached -- meaning complete separation from the federation on a temporary basis.
Your "ISU Hero" sponsorships would defeat (at least partially) my intent of having big strings attached.

If you want fluff with GoPro video, you can have that without sponsorship of extra spots at Worlds. (I am not trying to sound snarky.)

 

[Joekaz]

The real problem here isn't the little countries. It's the US and Canada not having the quality depth they should. If its unavoidable for quality skaters to be left home then those 2 countries at least need to get their act together.

 

[temadd]

If you think there's corruption in the sport now with federations, just you wait until you get big corporations involved, and large sums of money! Corruption galore!

Having 2 major corporations (Toyota & Bridgestone) sponsoring her did not help Ashley Wagner.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

Having 2 major corporations (Toyota & Bridgestone) sponsoring her did not help Ashley Wagner.

I don’t think they were directly hampering Ashley in any unexpected way. She’s a pro and been thru that process before and likely knew exactly what to expect going in so I’d be surprised if she was caught off guard by any sponsorship obligations.

Not sure though if this supports Karne’s case too well...it’s not as if either of those sponsors intervened to corrupt the make up of the Olympic team or the Nationals results.

 

[ice coverage]

Having 2 major corporations (Toyota & Bridgestone) sponsoring her did not help Ashley Wagner.

I don’t think they were directly hampering Ashley in any unexpected way. She’s a pro and been thru that process before and likely knew exactly what to expect going in so I’d be surprised if she was caught off guard by any sponsorship obligations.

Not sure though if this supports Karne’s case too well...it’s not as if either of those sponsors intervened to corrupt the make up of the Olympic team or the Nationals results.

But Ashley's situation in 2018 has no relevance to Sam's proposal of sponsorship of specific "ISU Hero" slots at Worlds.

Toyota and Bridgestone were sponsoring Ashley as an individual athlete.

There was no such thing as sponsorship (by Toyota or Bridgestone or any other sponsor) of "USFS Hero" slots on the U.S. team for the Olympics or Worlds.

I hope that USFS would never allow such sponsorships, but if it did, it would indeed raise the question of sponsor influence on team selection. Which would not be good for the sport, IMO.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

I hope that USFS would never allow such sponsorships, but if it did, it would indeed raise the question of sponsor influence on team selection. Which would not be good for the sport, IMO.

I think this is the prevailing opinion within those who make up the inner workings of the federations and the ISU. I don’t agree with this assessment about sponsors corrupting events as I have already made clear but I do think it sums up pretty well why I believe sponsors are not as involved with our the athletes in the way most other modern sports are. Maybe it’s a good thing...maybe it’s not. I’m not certain myself. At this point though and for better or for worse the federations have an almost absolute control over the direction the sport goes and which athletes will shape it. Its why I doubt change on behalf of the athletes will be taking place anytime soon.

Honest question though related more toward allotments.

If the intent of creating multiple spots is to grow the sport and if it successfully grows and we don’t adapt to facilitate that growth...isnt that technically hampering the growth of the sport. I mean...were the three spots designed to encourage growth and also to contain it? I think it’s hard to deny that having an event which will largely determine the landscape of the next season’s events via ranking and qualifications and to not include some it’s its best athletes is going to stir some reasonable discussion.

 

[Koatterce]

Honest question though related more toward allotments.

If the intent of creating multiple spots is to grow the sport and if it successfully grows and we don’t adapt to facilitate that growth...isnt that technically hampering the growth of the sport. I mean...were the three spots designed to encourage growth and also to contain it? I think it’s hard to deny that having an event which will largely determine the landscape of the next season’s events via ranking and qualifications and to not include some it’s its best athletes is going to stir some reasonable discussion.

It's to grow the sport around the world. If there's no cap, like if you let all the high scoring russian, japanese, etc. ladies in, then you end up with Russian domination, where few other countries have a chance That will discourage/limit the smaller countries from developing skaters since they can't compete with the Russians/Japanese and will probably never qualify for the FS and never get more than 1 spot. Whereas the Russians/Japanese will have a lot of success and thus continue to develop their skaters. Small feds will either forever stay small, get smaller, or disappear, and the large feds will get bigger and bigger, until it's basically just those huge countries. This is the case in basically every sport, and the few sports that don't have a country limitation in place either have extremely large fields or no dominating countries.

For most other sports, for whatever their version of the GP is, there are no country limitations provided that athletes meet some sort of criteria to get in. Some have separate tournaments apart from the WC for the highest ranked athletes (so like GPF). Alternate systems used by other sports may not be feasible for FS though, since many of them are objective sports, can have more packed schedules (more comps), or have shorter events.

Also, limited competition spots do promote growth. It forces athletes to improve and surpass athletes in front of them to get the spots.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

It's to grow the sport around the world. If there's no cap, like if you let all the high scoring russian, japanese, etc. ladies in, then you end up with Russian domination, where few other countries have a chance That will discourage/limit the smaller countries from developing skaters since they can't compete with the Russians/Japanese and will probably never qualify for the FS, whereas the Russians/Japanese will have a lot of success and thus continue to develop their skaters. Small feds will either forever stay small, get smaller, or disappear, and the large feds will get bigger and bigger, until it's basically just those huge countries. This is the case in basically every sport, and the few sports that don't have a country limitation in place either have extremely large fields or no dominating countries.

For most other sports, for whatever their version of the GP is, there are no country limitations provided that athletes meet some sort of criteria to get in. Some have separate tournaments apart from the WC for the highest ranked athletes (so like GPF).

Yes we’ve covered this aspect several times and I’m not certain I buy into it as much as some others do. I don’t think having two or three spots at the WC grows the sport any more than one does and I’m certainly not sure I believe lowering the bar of competition to create a false sense of success is actually a wise move. I think a fundamental difference for me is I’d rather see the GP grow and include skaters from all over the globe and give more spots to developing talents there. Let more of them perform and get to skate their SP and FS in front of a worldwide audience without facing cuts. I believe GP is a way better place for developing talent than at the World Championship. YMMV

I also dislike the way spots for the following season are handed out with so much weight on the WC. The idea that inviting the best athletes to compete will destroy little federation interest is a huge red flag for me that something isn’t right with the set up.

 

[Mawwerg]

It's to grow the sport around the world. If there's no cap, like if you let all the high scoring russian, japanese, etc. ladies in, then you end up with Russian domination, where few other countries have a chance That will discourage/limit the smaller countries from developing skaters since they can't compete with the Russians/Japanese and will probably never qualify for the FS and never get more than 1 spot. Whereas the Russians/Japanese will have a lot of success and thus continue to develop their skaters. Small feds will either forever stay small, get smaller, or disappear, and the large feds will get bigger and bigger, until it's basically just those huge countries. This is the case in basically every sport, and the few sports that don't have a country limitation in place either have extremely large fields or no dominating countries.

For most other sports, for whatever their version of the GP is, there are no country limitations provided that athletes meet some sort of criteria to get in. Some have separate tournaments apart from the WC for the highest ranked athletes (so like GPF). Alternate systems used by other sports may not be feasible for FS though, since many of them are objective sports, can have more packed schedules (more comps), or have shorter events.

Does this system work? Watching Euros I don't see any courage from small countries skaters despite the fact that there are only three Russian skaters and no Japanese or American or Korean. But I don't know how to revive this competition...

 

[Koatterce]

Yes we’ve covered this aspect several times and I’m not certain I buy into it as much as some others do. I don’t think having two or three spots at the WC grows the sport any more than one does and I’m certainly not sure I believe lowering the bar of competition to create a false sense of success is actually a wise move. I think a fundamental difference for me is I’d rather see the GP grow and include skaters from all over the globe and give more spots to developing talents there. Let more of them perform and get to skate their SP and FS in front of a worldwide audience without facing cuts. I believe GP is a way better place for developing talent than at the World Championship. YMMV

I also dislike the way spots for the following season are handed out with so much weight on the WC. The idea that inviting the best athletes to compete will destroy little federation interest is a huge red flag for me that something isn’t right with the set up.

One spot vs 2 or 3, is not the point here. The point is you can't saturate the competition with tons of skaters from any one or two countries.

I've always said that expanding the GP and GPF is the way to go. Leave WC approximately how it is, and develop GPF as a competition for the top skaters.

Does this system work? Watching Euros I don't see any courage from small countries skaters despite the fact that there are only three Russian skaters and no Japanese or American or Korean. But I don't know how to revive this competition...

It will always be harder and take more time for small fed skaters to succeed due to limited resources, funding, etc. But at least they have a chance, and there are skaters there. Whether they take that chance or not is a different story. At least the smaller fed skaters are there and working to improve, which is a start. Like the Hendrickx siblings, or the Australians, and several others that aren't from traditionally strong FS countries.
It isn't easy to revive the competition, but killing it would be counterproductive.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

One spot vs 2 or 3, is not the point here. The point is you can't saturate the competition with tons of skaters from any one or two countries.

I've always said that expanding the GP and GPF is the way to go. Leave WC approximately how it is, and develop GPF as a competition for the top skaters.

This seems like a positive direction. Growing the GP and the GPF would help to get those top level skaters better opportunities. It could have potential to overshadow the WC though. I know I am already starting to prefer GPF over all other events. At least it would be favoring opportunities for the top athletes out there.

If the GP changes and grows then are we going to have to address at some point how the GP berths are awarded and consider lessening the weight of the WC in regards to how the allotments are awarded? At least I would assume it would have to change somewhat as a reaction to the shift of competitors increases on the GP.

 

[Mango]

Look..you’re just being insulting now. I’m sorry if I’ve upset you to the point that you feel the need to flame me and my ideas.

Let’s just move on because the part I originally quoted you on tonight was in response to expanding the WC’s and not being able to expand it in only one discipline (ladies). That miscommunication has lead to apparent frustration.

Sam if you are asking me about why I'm posting things or making certain suggestions and I offer you explanations but you in return apply labels and don't reason with me then yes, we are going nowhere.

I have even taken into consideration points made by posters here who want change and the different ways it could be done.

Respect is a two way street. If you don't want to respect the ideas and the reasoning I'm presenting that's your choice. I thought we might be able to make a positive change that the ISU would be willing to consider more openly. But I will end this discussion here because we are far from being on the same page.

 

[sweetice]

The real problem here isn't the little countries. It's the US and Canada not having the quality depth they should. If its unavoidable for quality skaters to be left home then those 2 countries at least need to get their act together.

Not only them.

The system reward some countries with a spot unneeded, may be the third, for who have only two competitive skaters, or the second, like Italy and Belgium on the ladies. Don't rewarding the single but the country, they don't take into account that deepness needed for make those spots worthy.

 

[Joekaz]

Not only them.

The system reward some countries with a spot unneeded, may be the third, for who have only two competitive skaters, or the second, like Italy and Belgium on the ladies. Don't rewarding the single but the country, they don't take into account that deepness needed for make those spots worthy.

That's true. Its as if they think that by providing a spot it somehow makes good skaters suddenly appear out of the blue. Rubbish. You should have to demonstrate your skill throughout the season to earn a spot. That's the whole point of competitive sports. Otherwise its a beauty contest instead of a sport, which is what alot of people think now anyway. It's the subjective nature of skating that makes people not take it seriously as a sport. Giving WC spots to undeserving people makes that problem worse. Until what a fan sees with their eyes matches the results skating will never be taken seriously.

 

[Mathman]

Until what a fan sees with their eyes matches the results skating will never be taken seriously.

That's a little tricky, though. If you go by "fans' eyes," there were a lot of lower-ranked skaters at the Olympics and Worlds that skated wonderfully. But they didn't score high on the ISU scale of values and so lost out to skaters who maybe had falls or who presented little choreography or coherent program.

It is a sport, so you have to go by the judges' markings following the IJS. But this is different from what the fans see and value.

 

[Mathman]

To return for a moment to the suggestion that the winner of the Grand Prix Final ought to get a free pass to Worlds, here is my opinion. The idea that this creates a new category of skater who is not part of his nation's team, that seems to have too many problems to be considered seriously. But I don't see any harm in just giving the lucky country an extra spot, to be filled by the GP Final winner.

So if Nathan Chen wins the Grand Prix Final and USA has three spots anyway, now they have four. If Javier Fernandez wins the GP Final and Spain has one spot, now they have two. If Yuna Kim wins the Grand Prix Final and Korea has one spot, now they have two. If Carolina Kostner wins the GP Final and Italy has one spot, now they have two. If they have two, now they have three. It would not a priori favor the big federations federations any more than the small. It would just reward any national federation that can produce a GP champion (and also reward that individual, who now has the luxury of bombing nationals but still going to Worlds. )

I am undecided whether this elevates or diminishes the prestige of the Grand Prix. The GP title ought to be something of significance in its own right, and not seen just as a stepping stone to Worlds. So all in all I am only lukewarm about the proposal to give the GP champion a free pass to Worlds. But I don't see anything outrageously wrong with the notion.