ISU Championship Allotments - Ladies

[Joekaz]

I watch every skater. And can you define what you mean by "not very good?"

Bad choice of words on my part. I meant there is a large talent gap between the top 15 or so and the rest. Obviously they are all great skaters compared to the average person. It was relative.

 

[Mango]

We gave many suggestions that are manageable in time and, in fact, mean no increase on the number of skaters (for example, restrict country spots to 1 and let everybody else qualify by themselves). Many hosts and sponsors would be happy with such events (you know, FS doesnt make much money in north america and europe anyways, just saying, see the olympic broadcasts fails). We suggested 100500 qualifying criteria, from TES to placements at already existing events. We said when it could happen many times (at Worlds!), and explained how and why it would be better for everybody.

Could you guys please read the thread before being rude? There are many suggestions there, some of them very well fundamented.

Ah but that is not what I'm suggesting. I'm asking for specifics about a new event altogether. Not some refurbished World Championships. After all, no country wants to go down to 1 spot willingly. And Worlds is already so long. Also, if you try to tweak the ladies discipline then you will also have to allow changes to ice dance, men, and pairs.

Why would hosts and sponsors be happy having an extra X Russian ladies or Y Japanese ladies if the event is not held in these two countries? It would be better for no one except fans of Russian and Japanese skaters. Actually as many others have pointed out the worldwide viewership may decrease even more when more air time is given to skaters from just two countries.

The only real qualifying criteria I see posted is everyone who earns more than 200 points in a season. Is that limited to seniors only, or also junior ladies? It might be worrisome for someone like Alina to get beaten by someone like Alexandra Trusova but if 200 points is the cut off then both can come, right?

And the most important part which none of you asking for reform is addressing: Where are you going to find the sponsors? Who do you reach out to? Clearly some sponsors in Russia and Japan need to be suggested.

Asking for a concrete proposal for the ISU is not being rude. It's actually bringing your ideas into one place so maybe you could convince someone to give voice to these ideas at the next ISU Council. We already know at least one ISU member is on this board.

 

[Ice Dance]

Speaking of the 2002 Skate America, although Michelle Kwan was coerced into participating at the last minute and won the event, it was up-and comers Ann Patrice McDonough and Jennifer Kirk who stole the show.

I believe it was two triple axels that stole the show in the ladies event, neither performed by any of the ladies on the podium.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

. Also, if you try to tweak the ladies discipline then you will also have to allow changes to ice dance, men, and pairs.

Why though? Couldn’t you try in just one discipline? Say put two or three spots up for grabs with separate qualification levels to accomadate multiple levels of skating and see how it goes? Start small and gauge the results.

Re:Sponsors
The real challenge is getting federations and fans to buy into the sport instead of nationalism. This might only really work with the top athletes that transcend those barriers but maybe a few high scoring athletes could take advantage and help their career. The ISU really should be able to market a few elite spots to the sponsors. This really shouldn’t be a tough sell if done properly.

Name them ISU Heroes brought to you by GoPro (Hero6).


Then the athlete gets a few GoPros and goes on Social Media and posts a few videos promoting GoPro in return for a nice TV plug and helping cover the costs of the skaters travel.

 

[Joekaz]

Why though? Couldn’t you try in just one discipline? Say put two or three spots up for grabs with separate qualification levels to accomadate multiple levels of skating and see how it goes? Start small and gauge the results.

Re:Sponsors
The real challenge is getting federations and fans to buy into the sport instead of nationalism. This would only really work with the top athletes that transcend those barriers but maybe a few high scoring athletes could take advantage and help their career. The ISU really should be able to market a few elite spots to the sponsors. This really shouldn’t be a tough sell if done properly.

Your ISU Hero Spot brought to you by GoPro (Hero6).


Then the athlete gets a few GoPros on Social Media and posts a few videos promoting GoPro in return for a nice TV plug and helping cover the costs of the skaters travel.

It should obvious to you by now that many of the people here are more interested in nationalism than skating. No matter what you say they don't want to here it if their country isn't helped by it.

 

[Mango]

Why though? Couldn’t you try in just one discipline? Say put two or three spots up for grabs with separate qualification levels to accomadate multiple levels of skating and see how it goes? Start small and gauge the results.

Re:Sponsors
The real challenge is getting federations and fans to buy into the sport instead of nationalism. This might only really work with the top athletes that transcend those barriers but maybe a few high scoring athletes could take advantage and help their career. The ISU really should be able to market a few elite spots to the sponsors. This really shouldn’t be a tough sell if done properly.

Name them ISU Heroes brought to you by GoPro (Hero6).


Then the athlete gets a few GoPros and goes on Social Media and posts a few videos promoting GoPro in return for a nice TV plug and helping cover the costs of the skaters travel.

Why would anyone be ok with just expanding ladies spots? Besides, various countries have various strengths. The US could use more spots in ice dance and have the good teams to bring in. China could do with another pairs spot at least seeing as they went down one. Any number of countries could benefit from more men's spots. You can't just open Pandora's Box in the ladies and expect to keep other disciplines corralled. :roll5:

Skaters already post videos of themselves doing things with cameras or Go Pros attached. They get minimal interest. Skating, unless done outside, doesn't have that aspect of cool changing landscape that most athletes using Go Pros benefit from.

But hey Japan and Russia should have enough money between the two of them to make an event like this work. We could ask Kose to step up. Now the fans, though... :disapp:

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

Why would anyone be ok with just expanding ladies spots? Besides, various countries have various strengths. The US could use more spots in ice dance and have the good teams to bring in. China could do with another pairs spot at least seeing as they went down one. Any number of countries could benefit from more men's spots. You can't just open Pandora's Box in the ladies and expect to keep other disciplines corralled. :roll5:

Skaters already post videos of themselves doing things with cameras or Go Pros attached. They get minimal interest. Skating, unless done outside, doesn't have that aspect of cool changing landscape that most athletes using Go Pros benefit from.

But hey Japan and Russia should have enough money between the two of them to make an event like this work. We could ask Kose to step up. Now the fans, though... :disapp:

You asked for a solution and I offered one up. I’m starting to think you’re really just being argumentive now for the sake of it. It’s a fairly simple solution that might work. One that I came up with rather easily...I’m sure there are plenty more. GoPro sponsors way smaller athletes in way smaller events in a similar aspects. I was unaware that skaters were sponsored by GoPro and were getting support from them like I see in other sports. Who might I ask is doing cross promotions with GoPro? Are they already involved with sponsoring ISU events? I’d love to see those videos :yes:

FWIW: Having Russia and Japan put on their own event is not growing the sport or promoting inclusiveness in the least and could further add to the separation we are seeing. What I’ve propsed (as a hypothetical) is way less drastic and far more inclusive.

 

[Ic3Rabbit]

You asked for a solution and I offered one up. I’m starting to think you’re really just being argumentive now for the sake of it. It’s a fairly simple solution that might work. One that I came up with rather easily...I’m sure there are plenty more. GoPro sponsors way smaller athletes in way smaller events in a similar aspects. I was unaware that skaters were sponsored by GoPro and were getting support from them like I see in other sports. Who might I ask is doing cross promotions with GoPro? Are they already involved with sponsoring ISU events? I’d love to see those videos :yes:

FWIW: Having Russia and Japan put on their own event is not growing the sport or promoting inclusiveness in the least and could further add to the separation we are seeing. What I’ve propsed (as a hypothetical) is way less drastic and far more inclusive.

The Shibsibs were for awhile.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

The Shibsibs were for awhile.

Rightfully so!! They embraced vlogs with great success and awesome videos. If I were in the ISU marketing I would love to have them sponsor a skater at our biggest championship. When GoPro posts videos on social media it reaches millions when you factor all of their platforms in.

https://instagram.com/p/BhVKIuAnAN_/

They are a very strong company with a goal to help grow interest in sports and that their product is a cheap and efficient way to do it. Successful athletes can open doors to other sponsorships...like the Shibs did.

 

[Mango]

You asked for a solution and I offered one up. I’m starting to think you’re really just being argumentive now for the sake of it. It’s a fairly simple solution that might work. One that I came up with rather easily...I’m sure there are plenty more. GoPro sponsors way smaller athletes in way smaller events in a similar aspects. I was unaware that skaters were sponsored by GoPro and were getting support from them like I see in other sports. Who might I ask is doing cross promotions with GoPro? Are they already involved with sponsoring ISU events? I’d love to see those videos :yes:

FWIW: Having Russia and Japan put on their own event is not growing the sport or promoting inclusiveness in the least and could further add to the separation we are seeing. What I’ve propsed (as a hypothetical) is way less drastic and far more inclusive.

Wow you've really misunderstood my post then if you think I'm just arguing with you mindlessly.

I'm evaluating what you've offered and giving you a realistic reply as to why I don't think it works. I've even offered you a sponsor who has been involved in skating and stepped up when others did not. If you think that's being argumentative then every single Russian fan I've responded to in this thread is also arguing with me so maybe I should just call you all out?

Skaters have the money to buy GoPros themselves. Some do. Some even shoot videos in 4K. Mind blowing but that's reality.

I'm sorry but any call to expand spots on the basis that we cannot see skaters like Tsurskaya or Mihara is limiting your pool of additional candidates to ladies from specific countries. And those countries are definitely not developing nations. But hey, maybe as moriel purports we could supposedly grow interest in the sport by having more of an exclusive criteria for the elites of this sport to benefit. :sarcasm:

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

Skaters have the money to buy GoPros themselves. Some do. Some even shoot videos in 4K. Mind blowing but that's reality.
:

Putting the condescension aside....

When a sponsor gives you something for free it gives you an opportunity to post it onto your social media and often with a discount code. When GoPro sponsors an athlete and like I suggested if we were to give them a title like ISU Hero then every time that athlete gets attention as such it promotes the product. Maybe they will see opportunity to sell to a new market and increase sales.

 

[Mango]

Putting the condescension aside....

When a sponsor gives you something for free it gives you an opportunity to post it onto your social media and often with a discount code. When GoPro sponsors an athlete and like I suggested if we were to give them a title like ISU Hero then every time that athlete gets attention as such it promotes the product. Maybe they will see opportunity to sell to a new market and increase sales.

Then let's take your idea and evaluate it further.

You do the GoPro sponsorship for one season. And the top athletes that you think are deserving get their cameras and their discount codes.

And then the next season?

They get more cameras?

There is also no guarantee an American company would be interested in being involved in an event that may not even feature American skaters. In 2016-17 iirc none of the American ladies met that 200 points cut off.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

:

Then let's take your idea and evaluate it further.

You do the GoPro sponsorship for one season. And the top athletes that you think are deserving get their cameras and their discount codes.

And then the next season?

They get more cameras?

Well they would have another spot up for grabs the following season. In this scenario we can just have one ISU Hero that earns one additional Berth to the WC each season.

Yes they would get more cameras each year like the rest of their athletes. GoPro comes out with new versions every year and they are very in demand and they want to sell them.

There is also no guarantee an American company would be interested in being involved in an event that may not even feature American skaters. In 2016-17 iirc none of the American ladies met that 200 points cut off.

This is isn’t going to be an issue in the least. GoPro sponsors people from all over the world and has never been nationalistic in the slightest bit about who they endorse. In theory the ISU shouldn’t care either where the athletes are from.

This isn’t about GoPro though IMO. It was a quick suggestion to find some way to pay for adding an athlete or two to WC which is what you asked for. I’m in marketing and wouldn’t feel weird at all about approaching GoPro with this opportunity if I were on the ISU marketing team.

Don’t ignore the exposure that GoPro can offer the sport in return. There is value to reaching out to their audience and especially for the skaters. If for instance Kaetlyn had a cool video or picture featured she would likely pick up followers which would help her value if she were seeking more sponsors.

 

[Mango]

Well they would have another spot up for grabs the following season. In this scenario we can just have one ISU Hero that earns one additional Berth to the WC.

This is isn’t going to be an issue in the least. GoPro sponsors people from all over the world and has never been nationalistic in the slightest bit about who they endorse. In theory the ISU shouldn’t care either where the athletes are from.

This isn’t about GoPro though IMO. It was a quick suggestion to find some way to pay for adding an athlete or two to WC which is what you asked for. I’m in marketing and wouldn’t feel weird at all about approaching GoPro with this opportunity if I were on the ISU marketing team.

No, now you're really showing how much you've misunderstood what I've posted.

I asked for sponsors for a totally new event. Not refurbished Worlds. I spelled that out clearly enough.

One extra athlete or two at Worlds doesn't even begin to cover what you want. We've done the math on this thread. And federations are not willing to go down to one spot and earn more as has been suggested.

Sponsors do ultimately care about exposure. Figure skating is already limited in popularity in many markets. Which is why I'm asking about sponsors specific to markets with big interest in having skaters at these events.

But it looks like you guys are fixated on Worlds. Oh well. Carry on.

 

[4everchan]

But it looks like you guys are fixated on Worlds. Oh well. Carry on.

I think a solution would be to include figure skating into xgames.... they have a sponsor already ESPN... they do allow more than 1-2-3 athletes per nation..... and it's made to be super exciting... they could even have a crazy jumpfest event with special multiple jump combos... why not? and of course, they could have 20 athletes doing the same jumps and scoring from 200 to 220.... people would argue non-stop about who should have scored higher or not...when the gap is so close between athletes...

funny enough, a lot of xgames sports are judged and scored very subjectively... yet nobody complains


Regarding worlds and Olympics... do not touch figure skating do not forget that it's a very old sport... and a lot of fans like it like that. call me old fashioned and i will say, i am not, i am just classical

 

[Mango]

I think a solution would be to include figure skating into xgames.... they have a sponsor already ESPN... they do allow more than 1-2-3 athletes per nation..... and it's made to be super exciting... they could even have a crazy jumpfest event with special multiple jump combos... why not? and of course, they could have 20 athletes doing the same jumps and scoring from 200 to 220.... people would argue non-stop about who should have scored higher or not...when the gap is so close between athletes...

funny enough, a lot of xgames sports are judged and scored very subjectively... yet nobody complains


Regarding worlds and Olympics... do not touch figure skating do not forget that it's a very old sport... and a lot of fans like it like that. call me old fashioned and i will say, i am not, i am just classical

Oh no 4everchan. You will now be labelled as close minded and nationalistic. How could you do that to yourself?!

 

[Miller]

No, now you're really showing how much you've misunderstood what I've posted.

I asked for sponsors for a totally new event. Not refurbished Worlds. I spelled that out clearly enough.

One extra athlete or two at Worlds doesn't even begin to cover what you want. We've done the math on this thread. And federations are not willing to go down to one spot and earn more as has been suggested.

Sponsors do ultimately care about exposure. Figure skating is already limited in popularity in many markets. Which is why I'm asking about sponsors specific to markets with big interest in having skaters at these events.

But it looks like you guys are fixated on Worlds. Oh well. Carry on.

Why is there a need for a new event at all? Isn't the answer just to expand the existing GPs/GPF as a first step and take it from there? Only problem with this is if you start overshadowing the World Championships with the quality of skaters at the GPF - the 12, say, there would invariably be better than the final 2 flights at the World Champs, in which case what do you do, you don't want the World Champs to be overshadowed by the GPF, but then if you never do anything about the GPs, as say standards rise, you're stuck in the same old structure for ever.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

No, now you're really showing how much you've misunderstood what I've posted.

I asked for sponsors for a totally new event. Not refurbished Worlds. I spelled that out clearly enough.

To be fair the title of the thread is ISU Championship allotments and the OP wanted to address fans who want to see the top level skaters who could put on a good show compete. If you want to suggest that a new event needs to be created to accomadate this then that’s great but there is no need for you to expect anyone to create this event for you. Maybe a new thread would be better for this project.

People like myself have been trying to discuss ways to create a few extra spots that would prevent high quality athletes just sitting at home that could impact the event and that is very on topic for this thread. It’s ok to disagree but I think you’re creating scenarios that are designed to just silence an on topic discussion. And for what it’s worth I’ve spent considerable effort to create solutions that keep little federations in mind. I also feel comfortable saying that I do not believe the sport is actually benefitting from keeping athletes at home that could increase the overall quality of the event. Maybe they all don’t need to go and a few spots can be created that they can compete for and earn regardless of their nationality during the season. It seems pretty reasonable to me. YMMV.

 

[ice coverage]

... Re:Sponsors
The real challenge is getting federations and fans to buy into the sport instead of nationalism. This might only really work with the top athletes that transcend those barriers but maybe a few high scoring athletes could take advantage and help their career. The ISU really should be able to market a few elite spots to the sponsors. This really shouldn’t be a tough sell if done properly.

Name them ISU Heroes brought to you by GoPro (Hero6).


Then the athlete gets a few GoPros and goes on Social Media and posts a few videos promoting GoPro in return for a nice TV plug and helping cover the costs of the skaters travel.

... Skaters already post videos of themselves doing things with cameras or Go Pros attached. They get minimal interest. Skating, unless done outside, doesn't have that aspect of cool changing landscape that most athletes using Go Pros benefit from. ...

...I was unaware that skaters were sponsored by GoPro and were getting support from them like I see in other sports. Who might I ask is doing cross promotions with GoPro? Are they already involved with sponsoring ISU events? I’d love to see those videos :yes: ...

Well they would have another spot up for grabs the following season. In this scenario we can just have one ISU Hero that earns one additional Berth to the WC each season. ...

John Coughlin is another skater who had an affiliation with GoPro in the past and who posted videos shot with a GoPro.
(Several years ago -- when he still was competing, IIRC.)

I seem to recall that there was at least one other male skater (not from the U.S.) who had an affiliation with GoPro, but at this point, I don't remember who the skater was.

Agree with Mango that the "cool" factor of GoPro is largely diminished when the videos are of indoor skating.

In any case, I absolutely hate the idea of supposedly "earning" a spot at Worlds by promoting a sponsor's brand. (Whether the sponsor were GoPro or any other brand.)

(And the name of ISU "Hero" -- to promote a sponsorship -- absolutely turns my stomach.)

---

yeah but without local talent, do you really think Skate America would sell out or that NBC would broadcast any of it? You need the local talent.. that is all... and usually, the local talent is not that bad anyways... perhaps the 3rd pick is an up and growing skater...

... We don't have to look any farther than last year's ladies. Bradie Tennell (who?) made her international debut (except for the Tallinn Trophy earlier that year), taking third behind prospective Olympians Satoko Miyahara and Koari Sokamoto. She finishing far ahead of defending U.S. chamoion Karen Chen, whiile perennial contender Ashley Wagner withdrew. ...

Mariah Bell is another recent example.
Originally an alternate for 2016 Skate America, she won the silver medal. Plus she won the free skate.

---

I think a solution would be to include figure skating into xgames.... they have a sponsor already ESPN... they do allow more than 1-2-3 athletes per nation..... and it's made to be super exciting... they could even have a crazy jumpfest event with special multiple jump combos... why not? and of course, they could have 20 athletes doing the same jumps and scoring from 200 to 220.... people would argue non-stop about who should have scored higher or not...when the gap is so close between athletes...

funny enough, a lot of xgames sports are judged and scored very subjectively... yet nobody complains


Regarding worlds and Olympics... do not touch figure skating do not forget that it's a very old sport... and a lot of fans like it like that. call me old fashioned and i will say, i am not, i am just classical

Just wanna mention that the X Games were/are the brainchild of ESPN, which has continued to expand the concept very successfully. ("Sponsor" is not the right word. The X Games would not even exist without ESPN.)

In terms of thinking outside the box (for something separate from Worlds/Olympics, as you noted), the X Games perhaps could be a way to promote figure skating to a new audience.
In addition to jumps, maybe pairs/dance lifts and pairs twists also could be suitable?

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

In any case, I absolutely hate the idea of supposedly "earning" a spot at Worlds by promoting a sponsor's brand. (Whether the sponsor were GoPro or any other brand ).

Out of curiosity I must ask why? Figure skating seems a little behind the times in regards to creating opportunities for its athletes to capitalize on for themselves to earn a living. I only came up with this idea to provide a way to help fund an athlete that you suggested should be cut off from its federation if they earned an exemption. How would you propose this works even though I suspect you are also opposed to giving a berth in the first place. Still...I’d be open to your feedback.

I actually thought creating a little storyline for “ISU Heroes” would have made for cool tv/social media fluff. :shame: