Tuktamysheva's scores

[Mishaminion]

If you want to find the perpetrator - seek the beneficiars. And the most blatant ones are either USFSF and/or ISU themselves - because they are extremely interested in making non-allrussian GPF as much as possible. Otherwise it would mean lack of interest from many countries to translate GPF, breaking TV contracts with them, loss of money. Nothing personal - just the business. Considering that with all Eteri girls and Tuktamysheva and Medvedeva being assessed as usual - this scenario would be highly likely - it's inevitable they are going to make some steps to avoid it at any cost. So they (mostly Tech Panel, which probably was negotiated with before the competition) tried to underscore both top Russians in SA simultaneously. They managed to win against Liza (thus making more chances for both Brady and Rika to get to GPF). Anna managed to win against them though (considering the circumstances it was truly a heroical deed).
For that exactly reasons I fully expect overly strict judging for Medvedeva and/or even Trusova in Canada while having lenient one for both Rika and Brady there. Just like it was here. Mark my words.

P.S.: trying to seriously justify this ridiculous protocols with persuading themselves that judges suddenly begin to see Liza's traits somehow differently now and thinking up some explanations based on a current rules is making me laugh tbh. It's just delusional naiveness and making yourself a fool. All hints are on the surface - don't turn the eyes.

How many threads have you copy pasted this into now? I count three so far.
You're not going to find much sympathy as another poster pointed out, home cooking and overscoring is a problem in Russia/for Russians as much as it is anywhere else and to ignore that and make such hypocritical comments is laughable.

I seem to be one of the few people around here who accepted Sotnikova's Sochi victory, was happy for her and thought she was deserving of it...but even I had to admit if the Olympics had not been in Russia, her score would not have been quite that high and chances are she would not have won

 

[readernick]

I'm going to make a strange comparison but I think of Liza as Ashley Wagner with better jump technique. She has sass, emotional presence, and a fighting spirit, but she doesn't have difficult transitions, great spins in speed or position, fast speed across the ice, nor complex choreography beyond arm movements.

In some ways this is true. However, Ashley was fast. She could fly across the ice, it was transitions that were lacking but her charisma made her fun to watch. She covered a lot of ice while selling everything 100%. I think Liza would score much better if she was just faster . She doesn't need an overabundance of transitions.. she just needs speed and then her skating would feel sassy and fun. As it is now, she gets no ice coverage and that has a huge impact. Especially, in person.

 

[[email protected]]

To me, fans of the Russian ladies should be hugging themselves with happiness. They've got 4 more or less sure things in the Grand Prix Finals race, and two maybes. This is no time for moaning and wailing about how everybody's picking on us.

I cannot agree with what you wrote. Figure skating singles is a sport of individual personalities. We have here a drama of one particular skater Liza Tuktamysheva.

She was one of early prodigies. Then she got an injury and missed Sochi. Then she recovered and won the worlds. Then another collapse. Then a magic rennaissance at the beginning of the last season only to fall with pneumonia and get into Cup of Russia controversy to miss the worlds team. She did not give up and at WTT she beat them all including Rika and Bradie. She became the first lady to deliver 3 crystal clean triple axels...and all that was to have this judging nonsense. That's the whole point of the outcry and that's the reason to understand why it's happenning.

I haven't met here Russian fans whose only objective is to fill as many GPF spots as possible. I think that Russian fans are fans because they do care about skaters each of whom have name and their own stories to tell.

 

[Scott512]

I think many people around the world think like that as well. I mean - there is nothing WOW in the programs of "The Unbeatables"(with the exception of Kostornaya - she has great fluidity and huge jumps)and yet they get these huge huge huge scores.

Interesting take on your part. But it might not be popular here. For sure Alena now has artistry musicality fluidity beauty and grace that is on her own level in this sport. She has a more delicate wow factor than say super girl Sasha but she still has a wow factor. All three of 3A do. And it's great that all three are different.

I happen to think 4A earn their high scores but I can certainly see how the competition and older girls would feel overwhelmed by their scoring because how the hell can you compete with that? Most of the girls are scoring 180 to 210 or 220 what is outstanding and it's own right. But it is truly amazing that Eteri angels all 4A are already hitting scores 230 to 260 that most of the talented ladies in figure skating can only ever dream about. As others have pointed out their coach teaches them how to maximize points in their program. That matters. Even Zhenya and Liza super experienced an amazing skaters will struggle to get 230 points at their best this season. I think that's why so many people think 4A is out of reach of everyone except maybe Kihira. The talent determination hunger and guts of 4A is amazing. Combine that with the elite coaching they get that puts them on a very high level that is oh so hard to reach.

 

[Mawwerg]

For me Liza in current field looks quite similar to how Mirai Nagasu looked in Olympic field two years ago.

 

[SXTN]

Just insert instead of Lisa any other famous name from the top, and you will see some doubtfulness of this argument.

But Liza is not a top skater, she has not made the Worlds Team for years. She was Russia's No. 4, now she is Russia's No.5. It is what it is.

 

[Mawwerg]

But Liza is not a top skater, she has not made the Worlds Team for years. She was Russia's No. 4, now she is Russia's No.5. It is what it is.

Here I do not agree. She was #2 in last year SB list and Grand Prix finalist. She is a top skater but has some issues which keep her away from being #1 or #2 in Russia. I think she is in the 6-9 places mix.

 

[SXTN]

Here I do not agree. She was #2 in last year SB list and Grand Prix finalist. She is a top skater but has some issues which keep her away from being #1 or #2 in Russia. I think she is in the 6-9 places mix.

The pneumonia killed everything for her. Without pneumonia, she would have been European Champion probably and maybe Worlds medallist too.

 

[Scott512]

For me Liza in current field looks quite similar to how Mirai Nagasu looked in Olympic field two years ago.

If I read you correctly that's not very promising for Liza.

 

[Scott512]

How many threads have you copy pasted this into now? I count three so far.
You're not going to find much sympathy as another poster pointed out, home cooking and overscoring is a problem in Russia/for Russians as much as it is anywhere else and to ignore that and make such hypocritical comments is laughable.

I seem to be one of the few people around here who accepted Sotnikova's Sochi victory, was happy for her and thought she was deserving of it...but even I had to admit if the Olympics had not been in Russia, her score would not have been quite that high and chances are she would not have won

I'm another one of those few people around here. And yes skating on home ice has often propelled skaters to new heights and great scores. Judges are only human and they can be subliminally influenced by the roars of a crowd for the home heroine or hero as in Sochi or or any other Olympic games or the home performer is going for a medal. if there are Chinese skaters in the Beijing games coming up in a couple of years you may see higher-than-normal scores for them if they perform at a high level. Judges can be influenced by crowds and cheering and I guess it's somewhat understandable even if it shouldn't happen.

Back to Liza. I think some of her frustration is she has never made an Olympic team and probably never will while her contemporaries and friends Adelina and Yulia made it big at the Sochi Olympics in 2014. And Liza may never make another Russian world team and probably never will even though she's good enough to. I think people need to cut her some slack especially after being left off the worlds team last year to the shock of many. Whether it's judges or the Russian Federation Liza generally does not receive the respect she should in her mind and many people's minds. If that's how she really feels I agree with her. But the incredible depth of the Russian ladies only makes things tougher for Liza and everyone else for that matter.

 

[yume]

But Liza is not a top skater, she has not made the Worlds Team for years. She was Russia's No. 4, now she is Russia's No.5. It is what it is.

Someone who was bronze medalist at GPF last season is not a top skater. With the level of performances that she had at WTT she can't be considered a top skater.
I assume that Mai Mihara who finished 4th at Japanese nats, so has not made the worlds for the 2nd year, but who won bronze at 4CC and beat 4CC/Worlds silver medalist at universiade was not a top skater. Because she has not made the worlds team.
And i assume that the 4th at Rus nats this year who can be an Eteri's girl, and the 5th who can be Medvedeva won't be top skaters anymore.

 

[VenusHalley]

That's very interesting, because my reaction is exactly the opposite with Liza. I don't remember any of the jump details either, but I love the "forest." I leave the arena feeling both charmed and entertained.

Liza is a good performer. Sure shebdoes not do a leg kick every 12 seconds, but she creates a moment.

 

[[email protected]]

Mishin today made a comment in a very Aesopian language:


"The attempt to anathematize mature figure skaters will lead to the situation when most Western countries with their mentality and legislature that prescribes mandatory schooling will not be able to be represented at important international competitions".

I am sure he is really pissed. But unlike myself he cannot just say that Liza was screwed by judges because they can do nothing when Trusova, Scherbakova, and Kostornaya deliver their jumps. So, he has to be inventive bringing an unusual outlook to things.

 

[Edwin]

Mishin today made a comment in a very Aesopian language:


"The attempt to anathematize mature figure skaters will lead to the situation when most Western countries with their mentality and legislature that prescribes mandatory schooling will not be able to be represented at important international competitions".

I am sure he is really pissed. But unlike myself he cannot just say that Liza was screwed by judges because they can do nothing when Trusova, Scherbakova, and Kostornaya deliver their jumps. So, he has to be inventive bringing an unusual outlook to things.

He is a Professor in Figure Skating after all.

I came across the same sentence, and interpreted it that no other country will ever be able to compete with premature young Russians because "our" kids are by law required to attend ordinary school w/o exception for sports. And thus they will always be weaker b/c less training.
While "our" adult women past school age can still be competitive, probably referring to Costner and other great adult skaters from the past.

In my interpretation this is again a direct jab at Khrustalniy and their young skaters for uprooting his world vision on 'ladies single skating'.
Must watch back some of his comments to the children from Khrustalniy he judged on Ice Age, Kids, because I seem to remember there were some remarks that probably flew right past the kids, but could not escape any adults concerned.

LOL. Go professor, ignore the truth before your very eyes, ignore the signals this season's judges gave you ...

 

[macy]

Mishin today made a comment in a very Aesopian language:


"The attempt to anathematize mature figure skaters will lead to the situation when most Western countries with their mentality and legislature that prescribes mandatory schooling will not be able to be represented at important international competitions".

I am sure he is really pissed. But unlike myself he cannot just say that Liza was screwed by judges because they can do nothing when Trusova, Scherbakova, and Kostornaya deliver their jumps. So, he has to be inventive bringing an unusual outlook to things.

to make sure i'm understanding the bolded part correctly, in a nutshell does this mean Mishin is pissed Liza wasn't rewarded because she's been around a long time?

 

[[email protected]]

He is a Professor in Figure Skating after all.

I came across the same sentence, and interpreted it that no other country will ever be able to compete with premature young Russians because "our" kids are by law required to attend ordinary school w/o exception for sports. And thus they will always be weaker b/c less training. While "our" women past school age can still be competitive, probably referring to Costner and other great adult skaters from the past.

In my interpretation this is again a direct jab at Khrustalniy and their young skaters for uprooting his world vision on 'properly feminine skaters'.
.

I am not sure about the bolded part. Khrustalny has not "anathematized" mature skaters - international judges have if we are talking about Liza. If Liza was judged like she was before she would have received well above 220 for what she delivered at SA. Just this season, remember the short at Lombardia - her first outing after the triumph at WTT. She got 73.66 and was really perplexed together with the professor at K&C. I bet they were thinking of at least 77-78. But even then her both 3As during the free program were wonky and she still received above 140. I am sure with 3 clean triple axels they expected at the minimum 75+ + 145+ = 220+ But they got 205. So, it is not Khrustalny who "anathematizes" Liza

to make sure i'm understanding the bolded part correctly, in a nutshell does this mean Mishin is pissed Liza wasn't rewarded because she's been around a long time?

No, his point in the bold part is clear - judges sent Liza a message which is: "anathema". But he goes further starting to generalize. He cannot build his case on "Liza wuzrobbed". Hence, he tries to find support in a much wider group. And here yes, he becomes an opponent to Khrustalny. He basically says: "people, you are cutting the branch on which you are sitting. You won't be able to compete with Khrustalny wonder babies because a) your need to have young girls at school rather than at the rink and b) most girls have different bodies than those few selected. And this will mean that you will no longer have skaters like Kostner and Tuktamysheva. And you will never be competitive with those selected girls".

Once again, if Liza was treated like she was treated before, I am sure, he won't go that far. But now they are basically out of options. Liza is Liza. She won't be able to skate like Kostornaya and she won't be able to jump quads. What she showed at SA is basically her ceiling. She can get some improvements but if she is judged likewise it will be still around 210 which means "not competitive with top skaters". May be his comment is a desperate shout to ISU, judges, and all interested parties: "Save Liza!"

 

[Edwin]

May be his comment is a desperate shout to ISU, judges, and all interested parties: "Save Liza!"

Perhaps, but shouldn't he be more looking towards the future of skating in Sankt Peterburg? Tuktamysheva may be on her way out from the top, but there is still Samodurova and all those younger skaters that would like to advance -and- stay at home in SPb. Instead of begging for an assessment at some Moscow rink, where everything supposedly is so much better, only to find out your professor has been dealing against you?

With the ceiling you explained and I agree with your explanation, there is nothing to be done on short notice about Tuktamysheva's chances other that to put sticks in the wheels of others or start complaining to high level officials in FFKKR and ISU. Not much good that will do.

2 wides, no strikes, a third wide and Tuktamysheva is out of contention, no matter how many triksels, because landed quads and Kostorka's PCS will beat any offer Tuktamysheva can lay on the ice. And when Zagitova and Medvyedeva even without ultra-si overclass Tuktamysheva it is game over. No blame to Tuktamysheva herself for listening to the professor with his ideas and best intentions, but perhaps instead of sticking around in SPb, a move to BOrser would have been a better choice? A choice which will not be possible anymore once off the national team.

 

[Tolstoj]

He is a Professor in Figure Skating after all.

I came across the same sentence, and interpreted it that no other country will ever be able to compete with premature young Russians because "our" kids are by law required to attend ordinary school w/o exception for sports. And thus they will always be weaker b/c less training.
While "our" adult women past school age can still be competitive, probably referring to Costner and other great adult skaters from the past.

In my interpretation this is again a direct jab at Khrustalniy and their young skaters for uprooting his world vision on 'ladies single skating'.
Must watch back some of his comments to the children from Khrustalniy he judged on Ice Age, Kids, because I seem to remember there were some remarks that probably flew right past the kids, but could not escape any adults concerned.

LOL. Go professor, ignore the truth before your very eyes, ignore the signals this season's judges gave you ...

I mean he's not wrong for the most part.

You cannot replicate this model of building figure skaters in westerns countries, you could do in asian countries.

Perhaps this statement was aimed at raising the debate about the age limit in seniors, he couldn't say it directly cause i assume most people in Russia would be against it, while it would work in Mishin's favor.

If you raise the age limit to 18 today, Tuktamysheva's only rival in Russia would be Medvedeva and Zagitova would go back to juniors

 

[Edwin]

Perhaps this was statement was aimed at raising the debate about the age limit in seniors, he couldn't say it directly cause i assume most people in Russia would be against it, while it would work in Mishin's favor.

No doubt this age rise is his disguised main motive. And perhaps he can rally some support amongst his old comrades inside FFKKR that want nothing to do with Tutberidze and her ideas, and friends from all those summer camps and clinics abroad as return payment? But no motion will pass while Alysa Liu is still a junior, or those young Korean girls that will continue to compete and impress, even challenging the young Russians ...

 

[Pantsu]

At this point, it doesn't matter anymore if they raise the age limit or not. Khrustalny will adapt. People complained that Eteri can't train adult skaters or at least past puberty. But Medo and Zagi proved them wrong already. The focus in training and selection will shift and that's it.