2020 Four Continents: Men's Free Skate

[Seren]

I am an adult skater (skated as a kid but only competed in Synchro) so take what I say with a grain of salt. I don't think non-skaters understand how hard the things Jason does are. The level of footwork and spins and quality is so high on everything he does. I spent 45 minutes this morning trying to do a correct forward inside bracket at a glacial pace. I'll probably spend another 40 hours trying to do it right.

Jason's earned his scores. He is skating better than he has in his life. If skaters with good components and high TES skate clean they will beat him. Until then, too bad. If you want to win skate clean. Also- he is really working on trying to get the quad. It isn't like he's laughing about how he's winning without one. He is just doing what he can to the highest level.

 

[el henry]

Thank you for the chart.

One thing I wish I could see for Brown because I have no idea was the Transitions, the way someone posted for Chen, showing the number and the variety of all the elements. It was great.

For the Composition, I saw Ice Coverage Maps, so that can be a measurable skill; once more of them are available, I will happily compare.

If you are saying that a person has to have musical education to appreciate Brown’s Performance and Interpretation, that makes him sound as a skater for the true connoisseurs only, and that liking him elevates you to some higher level of fandom.

As subjective as everyone is, my gut feeling is that flawless and excellent should be more easily recognizable.

If tomorrow, a Mr.X from Nowhere skated similarly to Brown at a qualifier competition, would the PCSs awarded been above 9?

But you are saying that for "understanding", you need to be "convinced". And if you don't like Jason's skating, how can anyone convince you?

We are going around and around here. What is excellent and wonderful and awe-inspiring about Jason's skating cannot be reduced to counting revolutions and counting jumps. And the fact that it cannot be so reduced to that does not make it any less valuable or excellent or wonderful or awe inspiring.

Flawless and excellence in PCS is indeed generally recognizable, although it is not as easy as counting revolutions. Jason performed many of his elements to those generally recognizable standards (which cannot be reduced to numbers) at 4CC, which is why the judges scored him as they did:agree:

If Mr. X from nowhere skates to the skill, expertise and general excellence of Jason, please point him out to me. I would love to see him skate

 

[lariko]

I am an adult skater (skated as a kid but only competed in Synchro) so take what I say with a grain of salt. I don't think non-skaters understand how hard the things Jason does are. The level of footwork and spins and quality is so high on everything he does. I spent 45 minutes this morning trying to do a correct forward inside bracket at a glacial pace. I'll probably spend another 40 hours trying to do it right.

Jason's earned his scores. He is skating better than he has in his life. If skaters with good components and high TES skate clean they will beat him. Until then, too bad. If you want to win skate clean. Also- he is really working on trying to get the quad. It isn't like he's laughing about how he's winning without one. He is just doing what he can to the highest level.

They had already skated clean, aka with positive GoEs... so, no, it is not sufficient to ‘simply’ skate clean, not sufficient to land multiple quads.

 

[el henry]

They had already skated clean, aka with positive GoEs... so, no, it is not sufficient to skate clean, not sufficient to land multiple quads.

No it isn't.

That would simply be counting revolutions and counting jumps. And figure skating has never been only about that. I'll say it as many times as it needs to be said.

Whether you agree with figure skating being judged that way or not is another issue, but it simply has never been judged that way and is not judged that way now.

 

[lariko]

No it isn't.

That would simply be counting revolutions and counting jumps. And figure skating has never been only about that. I'll say it as many times as it needs to be said.

Whether you agree with figure skating being judged that way or not is another issue, but it simply has never been judged that way and is not judged that way now.

I know what you are saying. But one person first said, that all they need is to land quads. That second person—other than you—said they just need to skate clean. Neither statement is true. I want to emphasize that it is not some sort of happy-go-lucky sloppiness that holds back all those other skaters. It’s not like they had forgotten half of their musicality in their locker and will bring it on the ice the next time.

You may all laugh and point fingers calling me an ignoramus, but unless Uno puts out a glorious skate, I’ll be watching Brown on the podium.

 

[Tavi...]

Ha, at least someone said it... my eyes have been bleeding from comments about how “textbook” his jumps are compared to Yuma or Jun. Lmao.

Textbook is hardly the word I'd use to describe Brown's jumps. The lutz edge is not good and the 3A has always been scratchy and at best just good enough.

Yuma has good jumps. Jun under rotates quite a bit more than Jason does. Jason is not perfect and he does sometimes have an unclear edge on his lutz, but in general he gets good height and distance, he has good speed going in and out and in between jumps in combos, good transitions, really nice air position and landing position (he rarely if ever lands with a bent over back), and a lot of flow and extension going out.

Regarding his lutz edge there are far worse. Regarding his 3A, maybe you haven’t looked at it lately. I’d hardly call this scratchy, and it’s pretty representative of how he’s been jumping them lately:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=naEncCHKeLc

But hey, if you want to think he’s a terrible over marked skater, be my guest.

 

[el henry]

I know what you are saying. But one person first said, that all they need is to land quads. That second person—other than you—said they just need to skate clean. Neither statement is true. I want to emphasize that it is not some sort of happy-go-lucky sloppiness that holds back all those other skaters. It’s not like they had forgotten half of their musicality in their locker and will bring it on the ice the next time.

You may all laugh and point fingers calling me an ignoramus, but unless Uno puts out a glorious skate, I’ll be watching Brown on the podium.

I don't want to speak for other posters.

Musicality is subjective. Personally, I see very few other skaters with Jason's musicality. So other skaters will not equal his scores just by revolving four times in the air and landing on one foot while music is playing. (They will get other deserved scores for that feat). Or get his scores in interpretation by moving their arms to a beat. Or other subjectively graded skills.

So they were graded less than Jason on those skills. I think the skills were fairly and equitably rated. Someone can disagree. They can think Jason was overscored or their fav was underscored. That's why we have a forum

But as was pointed out, Jason also brings real, objective skills. Skating like he does, spinning like he does, steps like he does, is difficult, is hard to master, and at least at this comp, is rewarded by the judges.

"Quality, quality, quality, quality, quality". I almost fell off my chair when I heard Johnny Weir, no friend to Jason in the past, say that at the end of his FS. It's a judged sport and quality counts:yes:

I would never call anyone an ignoramus and I don't think anyone here has As Jason's fan, I wish I had the certainty that he is going to medal; I do not, at all

I am just happy to see him skate. I know I'm not alone. For his sake, I hope he does well, but it in no way affects my appreciation for him. I would hope everyone feels that way about their favorite skaters

 

[Seren]

I know what you are saying. But one person first said, that all they need is to land quads. That second person—other than you—said they just need to skate clean. Neither statement is true. I want to emphasize that it is not some sort of happy-go-lucky sloppiness that holds back all those other skaters. It’s not like they had forgotten half of their musicality in their locker and will bring it on the ice the next time.

You may all laugh and point fingers calling me an ignoramus, but unless Uno puts out a glorious skate, I’ll be watching Brown on the podium.

I don't think you are an ignoramus. I may not have been clear though. It isn't enough to skate clean. You have to have very good components/PCS and high TES and skate clean. Skating clean with high TES is one thing, but doing it while preserving the PCS is another. That is why I think Hanyu and Chen are in such a league of their own. They can do both. Sorry if I wasn't clear!

 

[noskates]

Jason Brown's silver medal at 4C's gives me hope that skating still values difficult skating AND tremendous artistry. I did not wait for the big jumps; I was mesmerized by his expression and movement that skated to this incredible piece of music. The jumps came-difficult combinations that were skated beautifully, spins and footwork that accented the flow and drama of the music. Congrats to the quad landers. But Jason Brown's skate is what draws me to skating and makes me come back.

AMEN to every word Slider. The only American man I can see that could even come close to what Jason brings to the ice is Camden Pulkinen. I hope he can get some consistency going.

But whether you like Jason or not - I would find it hard to not appreciate his skating.

 

[lariko]

I don't want to speak for other posters.

Musicality is subjective. Personally, I see very few other skaters with Jason's musicality. So other skaters will not equal his scores just by revolving four times in the air and landing on one foot while music is playing. (They will get other deserved scores for that feat). Or get his scores in interpretation by moving their arms to a beat. Or other subjectively graded skills.

So they were graded less than Jason on those skills. I think the skills were fairly and equitably rated. Someone can disagree. They can think Jason was overscored or their fav was underscored. That's why we have a forum

But as was pointed out, Jason also brings real, objective skills. Skating like he does, spinning like he does, steps like he does, is difficult, is hard to master, and at least at this comp, is rewarded by the judges.

"Quality, quality, quality, quality, quality". I almost fell off my chair when I heard Johnny Weir, no friend to Jason in the past, say that at the end of his FS. It's a judged sport and quality counts:yes:

I would never call anyone an ignoramus and I don't think anyone here has As Jason's fan, I wish I had the certainty that he is going to medal; I do not, at all

I am just happy to see him skate. I know I'm not alone. For his sake, I hope he does well, but it in no way affects my appreciation for him. I would hope everyone feels that way about their favorite skaters

On the balance of probabilities, he will medal.

 

[karne]

That’s not what I had seen—what I had seen was Kagiyama landing all his quads and still losing out to Brown.

Kagiyama was excellent here, no doubt...for a Junior. And he was very obviously still a Junior. The difference between his skating and performance and Jason's was very obvious. Jason has a refinement and control that come with experience.

If tomorrow, a Mr.X from Nowhere skated similarly to Brown at a qualifier competition, would the PCSs awarded been above 9?

I am not enjoying this new trend of folks pretending to care about little country scoring so they can criticise the scoring of their big country favourites (or not favourites in this case).

 

[nussnacker]

Yuma has good jumps. Jun under rotates quite a bit more than Jason does. Jason is not perfect and he does sometimes have an unclear edge on his lutz, but in general he gets good height and distance, he has good speed going in and out and in between jumps in combos, good transitions, really nice air position and landing position (he rarely if ever lands with a bent over back), and a lot of flow and extension going out.

Regarding his lutz edge there are far worse. Regarding his 3A, maybe you haven’t looked at it lately. I’d hardly call this scratchy, and it’s pretty representative of how he’s been jumping them lately:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=naEncCHKeLc

But hey, if you want to think he’s a terrible over marked skater, be my guest.

I’d argue his lutz edge is worse than that of Jun’s and similar to that of Yuma.

I’m did not call Jason a terrible skater and do not agree with that statement by any means, so if you think that’s what I meant by simply pointing out his jumping flaws, then we probably can’t continue conversing any further.

the comments in this thread that were made, making it look like Jason’s jumps are textbook and in general superior in technique to those of Jun’s or Yuma’s, seemed inaccurate to me.

I will not go further into the discussion of whether he deserved his scores or not, I have no intention on commenting on that.

I’m simply pointing out that Jason’s jumps are not textbook, that’s all.

And Jun was doing a lot better with his jumps, I’d give him a pass on both of his 3As, those seemed to be quite harsh calls in my opinion.

 

[lariko]

Kagiyama was excellent here, no doubt...for a Junior. And he was very obviously still a Junior. The difference between his skating and performance and Jason's was very obvious. Jason has a refinement and control that come with experience.

I am not enjoying this new trend of folks pretending to care about little country scoring so they can criticise the scoring of their big country favourites (or not favourites in this case).

So, Kagiyama’s skating is junior, and it should be obvious to everyone that Brown was superior, and I am pretending to care. I doubt you would believe it, but I prefer juniors because the chances of the unknown skaters to win are higher, and my ideal podium has three different flags, and no flags would be even better, but... shrug.

 

[Tavi...]

I’d argue his lutz edge is worse than that of Jun’s and similar to that of Yuma.

I’m did not call Jason a terrible skater and do not agree with that statement by any means, so if you think that’s what I meant by simply pointing out his jumping flaws, then we probably can’t continue conversing any further.

the comments in this thread that were made, making it look like Jason’s jumps are textbook and in general superior in technique to those of Jun’s or Yuma’s, seemed inaccurate to me.

I will not go further into the discussion of whether he deserved his scores or not, I have no intention on commenting on that.

I’m simply pointing out that Jason’s jumps are not textbook, that’s all.

And Jun was doing a lot better with his jumps, I’d give him a pass on both of his 3As, those seemed to be quite harsh calls in my opinion.

True, you didn’t call Jason a terrible skater. Sorry, I shouldn’t have put words in your mouth. But leaving aside his lutz edge, we will have to agree to disagree on whether his jumps are textbook or not. Brian Orser calls him a skater’s skater. That’s pretty high praise for a skater who is so frequently and heavily criticized (not saying by you).

Regarding comparisons to Jun and Yuma, I don’t think I personally ever made any comparison except in response, to say that Jun < more frequently, which is true in the judge’s eyes. It’s not something I would bring up as a topic of conversation. My opinion of Jason really doesn’t depend on other skaters.

What I think is that most of us have our favorites, and we tend to overlook or minimize their faults, while criticizing other skaters for lacking the strengths of our favorites. For certain skaters I have to force myself to consider what they do well and/or acknowledge that they’ve improved. But I do try.

 

[lariko]

In order to avoid the wagging finger of shame now being indirectly pointed at me, I want to state that I also didn’t use adjective terrible to describe Brown’s skating. In terms of provided colour chart, I would place it between good and very good.

 

[Tavi...]

In order to avoid the wagging finger of shame now being indirectly pointed at me, I want to state that I also didn’t use adjective terrible to describe Brown’s skating. In terms of provided colour chart, I would place it between good and very good.

I’m glad you found the chart helpful. But just so you know, my use of “terrible” wasn’t aimed at you, even indirectly.

 

[skylark]

I love what you said here, this is exactly what I'm struggling with all the time when watching figure skating.

I find myself not responding well to a more extroverted performance style, to me it tends to feel inauthentic, pompous and oftentimes cheesy even. I dislike the way it feels too transparent in its attempt to chum up to the judges and audience, it feels almost manipulative and too obvious in trying to push the right buttons.
At the same time I recognise the commitment and skill that's being put into such a performance and which needs to be rewarded in some way of course, especially when the execution is very good.

Oh and I agree about Roman . I actually find his SL program a lot more convincing and enjoyable than Jason's for this exact reason.

Yes, so do I. I just really connect with Roman's skating.

this is exactly what I'm struggling with all the time when watching figure skating.

Thanks for your answer. Sometimes I feel like a lone voice ... and an out-of-step one at that ... when these back-and-forth arguments get going ... often the same ones, over and over. I enjoy so many different styles of skating, and a performance from the heart can come from anyone, or any pair or dance team.

 

[el henry]

It is certainly possible to admire both Roman's and Jason's Schindler's List. I know I do, and it is a shame that Roman could not skate the programs the way that he wanted.

I also know that I personally would probably not enjoy inauthentic or pompous programs. That's one reason I love Jason, who skates from the heart and conveys real, deep-seated passion, particularly in a program as personally meaningful to him as Schindler's List.

Although "cheesy" certainly has its time and place, usually in exhibitions, and I'm not opposed to it Again, not a big concern as a Jason fan, since he is cheesy only in exhibitions where it's called for, and certainly not in the two skates he gave us at 4CC.

 

[alexaa]

Also, landing quads doesn't automatically mean high GOE either. It's a harder technical element but that doesn't mean there should be lenience in judging. Almost all of these skaters have long setups for their quads, no transition into them, and it isn't effortless throughout. These same markers are used for triples and should rightly be used for quads too.

.

Starting this season, Nathan did add transitions to some of his quads, some are pretty effortlessly, and timed perfectly to the music

You can take a look at the technical breakdown of his GPF free skate
https://twitter.com/NathanChinese/status/1206219499202064384?s=20
https://twitter.com/NathanChinese/status/1206221010036498432?s=20
https://twitter.com/NathanChinese/status/1206222073724624902?s=20
https://twitter.com/NathanChinese/status/1206223191078666240?s=20

 

[lariko]

Sadovsky not putting out the decisive skate in the Canadian 3 way tie was just sad.

I love Nguyen though, and he is having a great season. Plus, the Beatles!