North American competitive system lacking

[hulksmash1337]

Still, there are rinks in Florida and Texas.

It's perfectly fine for the US to care much less about skating than other sports though.

less than other sports, fine. Still not enough currently though.

 

[Skatesocs]

less than other sports, fine. Still not enough currently though.

I do not know what "enough" means.

 

[hulksmash1337]

I do not know what "enough" means.

My fault. I should have elaborated. The US is very content with not having new talents or at least at a pretty slow rate do they get developed. Enough would mean more opportunities for all the skaters at novice or junior levels to develop (less costly training camps or more financial assistance for those potential champions). Right now they're only highlighting talent if theu're already at Nationals, which I feel favor the old guard more than underdogs.

 

[Skatesocs]

Enough would mean more opportunities for all the skaters at novice or junior levels to develop (less costly training camps or more financial assistance for those potential champions)

Fair enough.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Really? You remember athletes who make it to the highest stage and then fall short of winning? Regardless of the sport, if you're not the gold medallist, you don't deserve to go down in history.

If your biggest accomplishment is a bronze/silver it's just a legacy of falling short of winning.

LMAO! What is this?! You’re basically saying 99.9% of skaters don’t deserve to go down in history.

In Olympic ladies that includes Michelle Kwan, Midori Ito, Mao Asada, Evgenia Medvedeva, Janet Lynn and a slew of other fantastic skaters. You’re also saying by extension that skaters like Sarah Hughes and Adelina Sotnikova have greater legacies than them.

Oh and in terms of World and Olympic gold medals you’re essentially saying that a skater like Trusova shouldn’t go down in skating history and if she fails to win Worlds/Olympics it stays that way. If Trusova retired today she would have still cemented her place in skating history.

The vast majority of skaters don’t win World or Olympic gold but many have an impact on the sport - some more than skaters who do win World/Olympic gold.

“Gold or you’re a loser” is just rhetoric spewed by people who themselves haven’t won anything meaningful or noteworthy, and just love diminishing others to make themselves feel better about it. It’s such a tired, easy, lame cliché.

 

[thedude]

The only thing that makes me cautious about the current youth movement in ladies figure skating is this. What we are witnessing is evidence that, when it comes to female figure skaters, whatever an 18-year-old can do a 16-year-old can do better. Whatever a 16-year-old can do, whtch out for the 14-year-olds. Does this mean that figure skating, at least on the ladies' side, is a child's game (like double-Dutch rope skipping, for example) and not to be taken seriously as a real sport? Are children just natuarally "higher, faster, stronger" in terms of the particular skills required for success in this sport?

Are wouldn't say the 16yr and 14yr old can do better as so much they have the biological advantage of not completing puberty. The young have the advantage of naturally having less bodyfat and narrower bodies. When it comes to jumping and spinning, I would say that not completing puberty is the main advantage. Tara Lipinsky and Michelle Kwan were the youth trend setters, but I would say Russia, specifically Eteri has practically made it the rule rather than the exception.

The only other women's sport that has similar development curve is artistic gymnastics. I can't think of any of sport where 15-17 yr old are consistently outperforming women in their late teens or early 20s.
That's not progress, that's just taking advantage of the quirk in biological development of women.

 

[Colonel Green]

Really? You remember athletes who make it to the highest stage and then fall short of winning? Regardless of the sport, if you're not the gold medallist, you don't deserve to go down in history.

There are zero sports that work that way.

Especially if you're talking about an artistic sport like figure skating, where most fans have many favourites who aren't medal contenders.

 

[lappo]

Really? You remember athletes who make it to the highest stage and then fall short of winning? Regardless of the sport, if you're not the gold medallist, you don't deserve to go down in history.

If your biggest accomplishment is a bronze/silver it's just a legacy of falling short of winning.

Ancient Greeks, founders of the Olympics, would agree with you. In fact, as a rule only the winners of the various competitions were registered in the archives of the temple of Olympia and had the huge honour of placing a statue of themselves in the precinct of said temple or around the sanctuary. As a result, we know only the names of the Olympic victors and (almost) none of their competitors (the only time we know something about them is because they were fined for breaking some rules by the officials, but these evidences are really scant).
However, nowadays, we have many more tools to record and rewatch athletes and much more informations circulating and everybody can choose for themselves what they like and what they dislike. Take for example, Jason Brown 2014 FP "Riverdance" that, before being taken down from Youtube several times, had many more millions of view despite the fact that the routine failed to win gold at both national and international stages of competitions.
As someone said, value is extremely subjective and it is perfectly legitimate to only like gold medal winners. However, especially in a forum of figure skating fans, I find it not very strange that many people would be interested not only in gold medal winners but also in other athletes who show good routines, improvements over the years or overcome personal obstacles to reach new and personal highs.

 

[lappo]

Are wouldn't say the 16yr and 14yr old can do better as so much they have the biological advantage of not completing puberty. The young have the advantage of naturally having less bodyfat and narrower bodies. When it comes to jumping and spinning, I would say that not completing puberty is the main advantage. Tara Lipinsky and Michelle Kwan were the youth trend setters, but I would say Russia, specifically Eteri has practically made it the rule rather than the exception.

The only other women's sport that has similar development curve is artistic gymnastics. I can't think of any of sport where 15-17 yr old are consistently outperforming women in their late teens or early 20s.
That's not progress, that's just taking advantage of the quirk in biological development of women.

Go tell this to 23 years old Simone Biles! In fact, while the US Olympic team at London 2012 was between 15 and 18 years old, they were all 19 or more (Raysman was 22) at Rio 2016 (the only 16 years old was Hernandez).The raising of the age of female athletes has been noted as a trend in the last years. The same goes for rhytmic gymnastics, where prepubescent girls are usually at an advantage but the current podium is made by girls of 19 years old or more.

 

[thedude]

The

Go tell this to 23 years old Simone Biles! In fact, while the US Olympic team at London 2012 was between 15 and 18 years old, they were all 19 or more (Raysman was 22) at Rio 2016 (the only 16 years old was Hernandez).The raising of the age of female athletes has been noted as a trend in the last years. The same goes for rhytmic gymnastics, where prepubescent girls are usually at an advantage but the current podium is made by girls of 19 years old or more.

Simone Biles won the genetic lottery and is probably the greatest of all time. She's under 5ft tall even at 23yrs old. Rio was one Olympics, and that was probably an outlier with Raisman and Douglas making 2 Olympics. If the Tokyo games would have happened, I'm assuming only Biles would have returned. Yes, the age is trending upwards but not by much. Whether that continues, I highly doubt it.

You also have to keep in mind that artistic gymnastics have raised the minimum age twice. To 15yrs old in the 80's and to 16yrs old in the 90's.
I would argue that without these age limits that age trend would have stayed down. There's always going to be some talented athlete who defies the current age trend. There will always be some years whether because of the lack new talent or exceptional existing talent that the average age will bounce around.

I have no problem with exceptional young teenage athletes. I have a problem with athletes being exceptional only because they're young teenagers. If Tokyo Olympics would have happened, in most of the events you have seen exceptional women athletes in much larger age range than you see in figure skating.

 

[macy]

Really? You remember athletes who make it to the highest stage and then fall short of winning? Regardless of the sport, if you're not the gold medallist, you don't deserve to go down in history.

If your biggest accomplishment is a bronze/silver it's just a legacy of falling short of winning.

oh wow. wow. how blatantly disrespectful. did you create this thread solely to bash those who don't have olympic or world titles?

 

[lappo]

The

Simone Biles won the genetic lottery and is probably the greatest of all time. She's under 5ft tall even at 23yrs old. Rio was one Olympics, and that was probably an outlier with Raisman and Douglas making 2 Olympics. If the Tokyo games would have happened, I'm assuming only Biles would have returned. Yes, the age is trending upwards but not by much. Whether that continues, I highly doubt it.

You also have to keep in mind that artistic gymnastics have raised the minimum age twice. To 15yrs old in the 80's and to 16yrs old in the 90's.
I would argue that without these age limits that age trend would have stayed down. There's always going to be some talented athlete who defies the current age trend. There will always be some years whether because of the lack new talent or exceptional existing talent that the average age will bounce around.

I have no problem with exceptional young teenage athletes. I have a problem with athletes being exceptional only because they're young teenagers. If Tokyo Olympics would have happened, in most of the events you have seen exceptional women athletes in much larger age range than you see in figure skating.

You're right; the raised age in artistic gymnastics is frequently mentioned here and many advocate for a similar change in figure skating. Personally, I don't have a clear answer...every time I see this topic mentioned I remember young Mao beating everybody left and right, including the whole podium of Torino 2006, only to be left at home for age reasons. Granted, Mao was firmly in the category of exceptional young teenage athlete but she also spent most of her career reworking her technique; while with the Russian skater the problem is that they might have not the time to show improvements over the year because a younger and stronger generations is looming immediately behind them. While I have my personal preferences, I find all of them incredibly exceptional...maybe because I have to work everyday with children their age, most of which not only lack any kind of interest, curiosity, drive and will to improve and live to do the bare minimum; therefore I find young skaters who sustain such heavy burdens from such a tender age truly exceptional.

 

[Mathman]

Are wouldn't say the 16yr and 14yr old can do better as so much they have the biological advantage of not completing puberty. The young have the advantage of naturally having less bodyfat and narrower bodies. When it comes to jumping and spinning, I would say that not completing puberty is the main advantage.

I guess that is the heart of what I am concerned about. Sofia Akatieva (age 13) just became the first "woman" to land two quads and a triple Axel in a program. I guess that means that the Valieva/Usacheva generation is over the hill.

Except that Valieva will be exactly the minimum age to compete in 2022, while Akatieva will be too old at the time of her first shot in 2026.

If the main qualification for contending for an Olympic gold medal is that you manage to defer the onset of puberty until the day after the Olympics, that catapults the accident of birth order to the place of highest predictor of who are the Olympic favorites.

 

[lostlutz]

Wow, our US ladies just can't catch a break from critics nevermind they are winning medals left and right and the top5 of skate america would easily win cup of china as well as any nonRussia european country nationals. They are not prodigies like the russians but they are all hard workers and the judges have shown to appreciate their classic grace

With US pairs becoming stronger as well, dance teams being solid top3 and men being the best in the world (which russian men aren't!), I fully predict a triumph for team USA in the next olympics.

 

[Mathman]

Ancient Greeks, founders of the Olympics, would agree with you. In fact, as a rule only the winners of the various competitions were registered in the archives of the temple of Olympia and had the huge honour of placing a statue of themselves in the precinct of said temple or around the sanctuary. As a result, we know only the names of the Olympic victors and (almost) none of their competitors.

The most famous example being the '67 Olympic Games, where the emperor Nero won 1808 gold medals -- and no doubt erected 1808 statues in his own honor.

 

[Gabby30]

Since the user brought up ladies as examples specifically, I also referred to US top 3 ladies as not being Usains

I don’t think it’s a child’s game. It’s just an unprecedented development of talent in Russia.

Plus prime age in men is around 20-24, when they have done growing and built up all the muscle, not 15, so he isn’t the best example of longevity in men. Had he been unbeaten as he is now at 27-30, we’d be talking.

None of the Russian top 3 are Usains either

 

[nussnacker]

None of the Russian top 3 are Usains either

They’re young, so they can still be Usains, but I’d argue Sasha has already proven to run her 100m in 9s.

 

[TheShackledCaps]

There are zero sports that work that way.

Especially if you're talking about an artistic sport like figure skating, where most fans have many favourites who aren't medal contenders.

I think these GOATs will disagree:

I will include their tournament winnings at the particular tournament they got 2nd/3rd place just to assure you that money is no object. (For reference, 1st place at Worlds Figure Skating pays $64,000+).

1. Lee Sang-Hyeok

2nd Place at Worlds - $124,000+ in prize money

Other Accomplishments: 3 (out of 10 ever) World Championships, 9 Domestic Championships, 3 International Championships (not including Worlds)

2. Roger Federer
2nd Place at Wimbledon Finals - $3 million+ in prize money
Other Accomplishments: 20 Grand Slams (AUS Open, French Open, US Open, Wimbledon).

3. Lebron James
2nd Place NBA Playoffs - $3,631,684+ in prize money.
Other Accomplishments: 4 NBA Championships

4. Sven Kramer
2nd Place Olympics -$22,500+ in prize money.
Other Accomplishments: 9 World Championships, 21 World Medals, 4 Olympics Gold.

5. Usain Bolt
2nd Place IAAF Worlds - $15,000.
Other Accomplishments: 8 Olympics Gold, 11 World Championships Gold.

I think all of these athletes' legacy will easily survive a single defeat. Why are they so worked up after a single loss? It's probably because they are the only ones that think they aren't worth anything anymore after a silver medal. Most athletes approach their sport this way and beat themselves up over getting silver. If you maintain that a silver/bronze is still worth a lot, I bet these guys would disagree.

 

[el henry]

@TheShackledCaps if you are saying that any of those GOATS from other sports would diminish the accomplishments of those who finished second or third as not worthwhile, I disagree. The fact that they are upset if they do not win has nothing to do with whether silver is “worth a lot”; I cannot see where the two are related

The fact that an athlete is upset if he does not win does not mean that silver or bronze or even finishing below silver or bronze is not worthwhile. And certainly not in figure skating,

 

[brakes]

If you recall, at the last Olympics, Russia took both gold and silver in ladies' single, with Zagitova and Medvedeva. Fast forward to this year, they are now no longer at the top of their domestic circuits and haven't won any major competitions yet.

Alina Zagitova won World Championships one year later.