2023 WTT takeaways?

[4everchan]

Just wanted to say this about Ilia. We have to remember he's only 18 years old. We do need to be patient and let him grow into that physical excellence. He's way far above what Nathan was skating at that age - for example. And I'm so glad so many of you are praising the Japanese fans - they deserve it.

I agree with both your points about the Japanese fans and the unnecessary pressure that is put on the young athletes (or any athlete as a matter of fact).

I am not convinced that Ilia, at 18, is way far above what Nathan was skating at that age as you have mentioned. These comparisons may lead to putting pressure on the athletes, for instance, Nathan was already a world champion at 18.

 

[Mathman]

[Ilia Malinin is] way far above what Nathan was skating at that age - for example.

Go Ilia! But Nathan at 18 was world champion and grand prix final champion, and he won the LP over Hanyu at the 2018 Olympics, landing 6 quads. I don't know that we can say Ilia is FAR above Nathan at that age.

 

[Skater Boy]

WTT TAKEAWAYS

1. USA rules. The results here bring us back to the years when the US was dominant. But lest we forget Russia was not competing.
2. Chock and Bates are loved by the judges and their great favour may lead them to stay on and compete for a while.
3. Canada as hard as you may try are in a lull. After a promising start Deanna and Max could not keep it and their pcs show that they are clearly behind the Italians. Piper and Paul are not the chosen ones clearly in dance. After a very promising start the surgery to Piper seems to have derailed them There seems to be some tech issues looking at the results. Madi while a bit of promise in the sp continues to struggle. And while it was nice for Sara to compete and gain experience she sadly did not have a great introduction to the competitive skate world. The men had the opportunity to step it up but they didn't. Losing Keegan will be losing their hope of holding on to two positions. I do see some hope in pairs and dance but individually they really look in trouble. Coming in dead last is not reassuring especially in the absence of Russia

 

[mrrice]

my takeaways from WTT?

ermm...

i watched it not for the competition so much but just to enjoy my favourite skaters. I expect it may have been the last time for some..

Jun was stellar. That's the performance I will remember.

Amazing to see Korea finish dead last in both pairs and dance and get silver thanks to the strength of their single skaters. Shows how one-sided the event is in terms of point allocation.. but no biggie... if it were a serious competition, I'd be upset but as if is just for fun, then it is what it is .

Well, how would suggest they score a "Team Event?" You start with a blank sheet, and build your score by each individual event. I believe all the medalists score an equal amount of points per discipline. Isn't that correct?

 

[Mathman]

Well, how would suggest they score a "Team Event?" You start with a blank sheet, and build your score by each individual event. I believe all the medalists score an equal amount of points per discipline. Isn't that correct?

That's correct, but I think that 4everchan's point was that the most a team can score in pairs or dance is 12 points. Whereas in the singles disciplines a team could collect 23 pointa (12 for first plus 11 for second).

Still, I think the balance is OK. Not many countries can field two first class pairs teams and two first class dance teams. The current format encourages countries to develop their pairs and dance, but does not knock them out of contention if they lack depth in those disciplines.

 

[Fluture]

Team Korea was an absolute joy! They clearly were so happy to be competing and you could tell. From the personalized props based on their personalities/nicknames, to the choreographed K&C routines, to the incredible support/cheering (I wonder how Haein's vocal cords are still intact lol after all that screaming). And while the points system at WTT is clearly biased in favor of strong single skaters, I didn't mind it one bit if it meant Team Korea's exceptional performance and team spirit got rewarded. Their pairs and dance team may have finished last, but they did extremely well given that this was L/Q's first senior competition (and they choreographed/trained a new RD in like three weeks) and first international competition ever for Cho/Adcock. C/A have only skated together for about 10 months and yet they finished barely 3 points under the fifth placed team in the SP. I hope Quan and Adcock get citizenship in time for 2026 because WTT showed the immense promise these teams have.

Additionally, I couldn't help but think of Yuna. I think she said once that skaters from other countries had teammates to hang out with, while she was always alone. I can only imagine how happy and proud she must be, seeing a full Korean team supporting each other and winning a silver at their first WTT.

So, WTT might be cheesy and flawed, but who can care about any of that if it gives you scenes like these?

https://twitter.com/trusovbot/status/1647173232489889792?s=20

Imo, the whole competition was a fantastic end to a fantastic season.

 

[4everchan]

Actually dance and pairs can gather 24 points each across both segments, while the lowest ranked teams will gain 14... differential 10.

Top skater in singles can earn 24 points too but fhe lower ranked skater, only 2.. differntial 22

And of course, there is another skater to factor in... who could earn 22 points while the second last would earn 4...
Differntial 18...

So while pairs or dance teams can earn only 24 points, single skaters can earn 46 points...

With the lowest score capped at 14 for the lowest ranked teams, it minimizes the impact of dance and pairs as lowest singles will hurt much more their team...

Simple things could be done that do not require more skaters.... less skaters could be invited in singles or two could still be invited but only the best one would score...so that would match the 12 to 7 allowed to dance and pairs..

Or if fans really want to see more stars, a ranking per country could be done ... for instance, the top country could earn 12 in the sp adding the ranking of their two entries, the last nation, 7... that would match the dance and pairs scores and would allow each discipline to contribute fairly.

Also, the qualification should also be done accordingly counting one entry per discipline...

I just feel it is disrespectful for the pairs and dance teams/disciplines whose scores barely have any impact on the overall score.

It might also be more exciting for fans as a bit less predictable

 

[yesterday]

We could do "rescorings" of this WTT in some ways (without Pairs/Dance; with double points for Pairs/Dance etc.) and see if it changes the result?

 

[Fluture]

Actually dance and pairs can gather 24 points each across both segments, while the lowest ranked teams will gain 14... differential 10.

Top skater in singles can earn 24 points too jut fhe lower ranked skater, only 2..

And of course, there is another skater to factor in... who could earn 22 points while the second last would earn 4...

So while pairs or dance teams can earn only 24 points, single skaters can earn 46 points...

With the lowest acore capped at 14 for the lowest ranked teams, it minimizes the impact of dance and pairs as lowest singles will hurt with much more their team...

Simple things could be done that do not require more skaters.... less skaters could be invited in singles or two could still be invited but only the best one would score...so that would match the 12 to 7 allowed to dance and pairs..

Or if fans really want to see more stars, a ranking per country could be done ... for instance, the top country could earn 12 in the sp adding the ranking of their twl entries, the last nation, 7... that would match the dance and pairs scores and would allow each discipline to contribute fairly.

Also, the qualification should also be done accordingly counting one entry per discipline...

I just feel it is disrespectful for the pairs and dance teams whose scores barely have any impact on the overall score.

Honestly, the Japanese fed is pouring so much money into this competition, they should get to decide the format. Also, single skaters are clearly still the draw — the singles disciplines are just much more popular in Japan at the moment. M/K and M/T could change that in the future but right now we're not there yet. It's a fun competition and not that serious. The only thing I can see is not recognizing scores at WTT for SB since the judging tends to be befitting of the overall competition's mood and is thus extremely generous. I think that would be fair.

 

[4everchan]

Honestly, the Japanese fed is pouring so much money into this competition, they should get to decide the format. Also, single skaters are clearly still the draw — the singles disciplines are just much more popular in Japan at the moment. M/K and M/T could change that in the future but right now we're not there yet. It's a fun competition and not that serious. The only thing I can see is not recognizing scores at WTT for SB since the judging tends to be befitting of the overall competition's mood and is thus extremely generous. I think that would be fair.

I have a problem with the money argument for exactly what you said, as the scores still count for season's best scores which has an impact on isu events... and because the qualification for wtt depends on that same format... would we get different teams if only one skater per discipline earned qualification points?

 

[4everchan]

We could do "rescorings" of this WTT in some ways (without Pairs/Dance; with double points for Pairs/Dance etc.) and see if it changes the result?

Still flawed... top dance gets 48 lowesr would get 28...46 versus 6 for singles...

 

[4everchan]

PS. I am fine with the results the way they are... i am not in a wuzrobbed mood...just answering a question from @mrrice

 

[TontoK]

I just feel it is disrespectful for the pairs and dance teams whose scores barely have any impact on the overall score.

I could argue that the silver and bronze medals were decided by pairs and dance.

Korea won silver by a point, and that's when the Japanese finished second in both phases of the pairs, and when the Japanese dancers dropped a place in the free dance. Just a point the other way in any of these would have put us in a tie-breaker... and I'm too disinterested to see how that would resolve. Two flips would have changed the medals.

 

[Fluture]

I have a problem with the money argument for exactly what you said, as the scores still count for season's best scores which has an impact on isu events... and because the qualification for wtt depends on that same format... would we get different teams if only one skater ler discipline earned qualification points?

Yes, I'm no exactly sure why the scores even count for SB when scores at e.g Japan Open don't. They probably shouldn't and it would also spare us from the awkwardness of having certain over the tops scores be counted as WRs (C/B come to mind, or Medvedeva's 160+ FS in 2017).

I have to confess, I don't really know in detail how the qualification for WTT worked but I can't imagine it changing the results much if at all. The next two potential qualifiers would be Georgia and Switzerland, neither of which have a senior pair (since both Georgian pairs split this season), while Switzerland has no senior dance team.

I could argue that the silver and bronze medals were decided by pairs and dance.

Korea won silver by a point, and that's when the Japanese finished second in both phases of the pairs, and when the Japanese dancers dropped a place in the free dance. Just a point the other way in any of these would have put us in a tie-breaker... and I'm too disinterested to see how that would resolve. Two flips would have changed the medals.

South Korea would have won the tie breaker, I think, since it's based on first place finishes (or highest finishes). Haein won both the SP and the FS in the women's event, while Jun won the men's FS. Japan's highest finishes were Kaori and M/K with two second places. Even if M/K had won either the SP or the FS, they would have lost the tie breaker overall. That's why it was certain that Korea had won silver even while Malinin was yet to skate and could potentially overtake Cha.

 

[4everchan]

I could argue that the silver and bronze medals were decided by pairs and dance.

Korea won silver by a point, and that's when the Japanese finished second in both phases of the pairs, and when the Japanese dancers dropped a place in the free dance. Just a point the other way in any of these would have put us in a tie-breaker... and I'm too disinterested to see how that would resolve. Two flips would have changed the medals.

Ermmm... ok. I don't see it that way... japan lost the silver in the men's SP... finishing last in pairs and dance for korea didn’t ruin their chances for silver...

 

[el henry]

Alexa Knierim and Madison Chock have posted how they loved loved loved loved this event. (and I don't think it is the results, they barely talked about the results).

They do not feel disrespected, so I will go with them.

 

[4everchan]

Alexa Knierim and Madison Chock have posted how they loved loved loved loved this event. (and I don't think it is the results, they barely talked about the results).

They do not feel disrespected, so I will go with them.

I am not saying the individuals are disrespected... but the disciplines

 

[apgold]

I thought it was a great event - some suspect scoring but I think the final placements of all teams reflected the quality. I kind of wish they held it every year. Wasn't there some other event that was held in Spokane a few years ago with a different organizer? Is that still a thing?

I also noticed some cross pollination of countries and coaches - such as Miki Ando working with Matteo and team Italy and Bruno Marcotte coaching Riku/Ryuichi. Team Korea had a few Canadian born teammates and Team Canada had a few US born teammates as well.

Question - I know that there is $1M in prize money awarded - does anyone know the breakdown by 1st - 6th place?

 

[Flying Feijoa]

Simple things could be done that do not require more skaters.... less skaters could be invited in singles or two could still be invited but only the best one would score...so that would match the 12 to 7 allowed to dance and pairs..

This is quite reasonable. Or just try to match the Olympic team event rules?

Given that WTT is only ever held in Japan, I don't think the rules would change unless Japan at some point ends up with a dearth of singles skaters and multiple strong dance/pairs team... It was fun to see Korea give them a run for their money since both countries are competing in the same wheelhouse in terms of strength across disciplines.

WTT to the other ISU competitions is like ice dance to the other disciplines. Skating is good, scoring is iffy, but people by and large aren't supposed to care about it because it's 'entertainment', otherwise they are wet blankets

I also noticed some cross pollination of countries and coaches - such as Miki Ando working with Matteo and team Italy and Bruno Marcotte coaching Riku/Ryuichi. Team Korea had a few Canadian born teammates and Team Canada had a few US born teammates as well.

Miki is just filling in for Matteo's dad at the competition as none of his team were able to be there (or preferred not to make the trek for a less important competition). Miki was coached by Rizzo Sr in her last season so I guess she's returning the favour.
The other international coaching/skater arrangements are pretty standard nowadays.

 

[Bookseller]

My takeaways:
Jason Brown-please stay forever and never stop skating.
Jun-no way to describe how magnificent he was.
The Japanese audiences are the BEST!
Team members cheering for other countries almost 100% of the time. Nice to see.
Ilia's short makes me hopeful he's on his way.
Korean Women shining.
Riku and Ryiuchi's joy despite having a strong showing and not coming out on top against a solid and determined Alexa and Brandon.
Isabeau's composure and smile. I hope she truly enjoyed this competition and her outstanding 1st season as a senior.
Keegan and his teammates at the end of the gala all on the ice while he skated around the rink with a giant Canadian flag. Magnificent!
I missed Shoma.
At different times the skaters looked tired from a long season but they still wanted to please the audience. I usually don't watch the galas but knowing this was the last skating we'd see for a while, I watched it. Really enjoyed it as it was well done and the audience was really into it. Shout out to Shun. His gala number was brilliant.

Agree with everything. A few comments. Ilia and Isabeau came alive at this competition. They'll be traveling on tour with some really great skaters and I predict they will come back in the fall transformed into better performers and more comfortable skaters who enjoy competing and skating even more. They both learned that skating can be lots of fun! WTT is all about having fun while competing.

Riku and Ryiuchi are wonderful in every way. And it was great to see Alexa and Brandon skate so well.

We all miss Shoma. He deserved to be at this fun competition. I'm sorry he didn't make it. But a couple of Japanese skaters got the privilege and they will benefit from it.

I'm glad Keegan had this very positive experience for his last competition. He'll be skating shows for a long time, I think. He's so entertaining.

The Korean Team is becoming amazing! Jun is a transformed skater and Haein was wonderful and Yelim skated very well and with joy. They are going to be a factor in this Olympic quad and more so in the next.

The Japanese audiences are indeed the BEST! A good skating audience cheers for everyone! We should want them all to do well.

Props to the ISU coverage including the gala until every skater was off the ice and ready to call it done. It was fun to see them having fun. You miss that usually, unless you are in the arena. It was great to see it.