Gabriella Papadakis & Guillaume Cizeron

Camille1409 said:

I agree with you so much, I'm coming were for interviews links and some others media stuff after the olympics. But clearly I just scroll down to the link without reading a.n.y.t.h.i.n.g because this thread has turned in a way I simply don't like. It must be use to share informations not to fights about judges decisions (you've got so much other social media to do it if you really want to take that way....). So please can we just turn back to what the thread used to be aka a gentle place where everyone was nice to each other, where we can share artistic point of views, and all positives statements.

Click to expand...

No, actually No.
Feel free to come here for links and sharing information. I'm certainly not the last one to share information on this forum... Not sure for how long I will continue to do that though... This forum should be also targeted to discuss about judging which is an essential topic for a judged sport. You're probably not interested in deep in the judging system neither in possible ways to change and improve it but you may suffer other people like to discuss about it coming with ideas and interesting analysis published in other sites which deserve to be shared and discussed. Comparisons with other judged sports can be really on point and relevant.
The main problems come when trouble makers jump into the debate to create a mess and this is where the moderators are expected to play their role by stopping the trouble makers and let the debate continue...

alain06fr said:

No, actually No.
Feel free to come here for links and sharing information but this forum (and I'm certainly not the last one to share information on this forum... Not sure for how long I will continue to do that though...) is also targeted to discuss about judging which an essential topic for a judged sport. You're probably not interested in deep in the judging system neither in possible ways to change it to improve it but you may suffer other people like to discuss about it coming with ideas and interesting analysis published in other sites which deserve to be shared and discussed. Comparisons with other judged sports can be really on point and relevant.
The main problems come when trouble makers jump into the debate to create a mess ans this is where the moderators are expected to play their role by stopping the trouble makers and let the debate continue...

Click to expand...

And we will continue to discuss the judging, hopefully without some people telling us how wrong we apparently are . This is genuienely one of the 1st time we decide to go deeper on this subject, but apparently we're not able to question the judging this time, since it benefits some others, right ? It's ridiculous.
We did have that at Worlds 2017 already where I believe was almost worst (there is at least 1 level that was questionnable), but Gaby posted the picture on instagram congratulating her rivals and decided to move on. That's very classy of her.
Hopefully in the future, there won't be this notion of double standards which I believe was very toxic, especially this year. Protocols are always full of surprises aren't they...

Anyasnake said:

And we will continue to discuss the judging, hopefully without some people telling us how wrong we apparently are . This is genuienely one of the 1st time we decide to go deeper on this subject, but apparently we're not able to question the judging this time, since it benefits some others, right ? It's ridiculous.
We did have that at Worlds 2017 already where I believe was almost worst (there is at least 1 level that was questionnable), but Gaby posted the picture on instagram congratulating her rivals and decided to move on. That's very classy of her.
Hopefully in the future, there won't be this notion of double standards which I believe was very toxic, especially this year. Protocols are always full of surprises aren't they...

Click to expand...

At this point, I am not interested in sharing anything else on this forum neither having discussions on essential topics as long as I am not convinced myself this forum is managed as appropriate.

alain06fr said:

At this point, I am not interested in sharing anything else on this forum neither having discussions on essential topics as long as I am not convinced myself this forum is managed as appropriate.

Click to expand...

I hope you stay on this thread Alain, you're always sharing great things with us. But I understand, it really gets out of line sometimes. And this season, WAY too often. When I came to these places for the first time, I never thought it could get out of line this way (I thought about stopping to share things too at the beginning of the season because it began to be an odd place). Thankfully this thread is really nice, minus some people jumping in for no reason from time to time of course.
(EDIT : and hopefully, it will stop now that the Olympics are over)

alain06fr said:

No, actually No.
Feel free to come here for links and sharing information. I'm certainly not the last one to share information on this forum... Not sure for how long I will continue to do that though... This forum should be also targeted to discuss about judging which an essential topic for a judged sport. You're probably not interested in deep in the judging system neither in possible ways to change it to improve it but you may suffer other people like to discuss about it coming with ideas and interesting analysis published in other sites which deserve to be shared and discussed. Comparisons with other judged sports can be really on point and relevant.
The main problems come when trouble makers jump into the debate to create a mess ans this is where the moderators are expected to play their role by stopping the trouble makers and let the debate continue...

Click to expand...

Actually I am interested.... But as you said by the system judging and how it could be improve. And, the last three weeks brought some rivalry vibes that are not really linked to.
So it's maybe utopian but i wish we could find a way for everyone to deal with each other ideas (because it's just sport - and saying that broke my heart because it means life and dedication for sooo many people -).

Btw Alain I don't know what you meant by "Not sure for how long I will continue to do that though..." but it's always a really good feeling to read your words and have you there

:luv17:

Anyasnake said:

https://twitter.com/torvillanddean/status/970014860871454720 Tank top back on ! And the old dress too ? That's a great picture though

Click to expand...

That old dress was much better! I don't know why she had to change it for the Olympics...

oakandbirch said:

That old dress was much better! I don't know why she had to change it for the Olympics...

Click to expand...

I think she added the green glitter to make it more pop, but they also added a layer covering the upper body for the Olympics. ALong with Guillaume's sleeves, it's to avoid anything that would give an excuse for a deduction, or to offense a very very large public I think.

I want to try to put some points together to get a clearer overview of why I feel so frustrated.

My main issue is with acknowledgement. Reality is a weird thing and our perceptions always make reality subjective, but in this very important time in history, it seems like we're in a world where somehow the fact that grass is green has become debatable.

So let's see if we can agree on these things.

1. Gaby and Guillaume have brought something extra to ice dancing that many people feel was urgently needed and has drawn in a lot of people who had lost interest in figure skating. After the technical and acrobatic developments of the past two decades, they added the artistry, beauty and dance innovation of the Duchesnays and Klimova/Ponomarenko.

2. In a surprising turn of events, the judges acknowledged this and catapulted Gaby and Guillaume to the top of the podium from the season 2014-15 onwards.

3. In 2016, Tessa and Scott decided to come back to competition. Not because they saw the new development and wanted to be part of it or felt that they had something to add to ice dancing, but because they had unfinished business competition-wise. They wanted revenge for the silver medal in Sochi and wanted to put more medals and records on their win-list: they love competition and wanted to feel that excitement again.

4. Technically, Tessa and Scott were superior to Gaby and Guillaume, but they never wanted to change the sport in any way. They excelled at what ice dancing at the beginning of the 21st century was: technical and acrobatic. The artistic side was back then less important, mainly conservative and not questioning the original idea that ice dancing should be ballroom dancing on ice. That concept of ice dancing fits them like a glove.

5. So here we have a clash: a new wind in ice dancing focusing more on artistic content brought on by two new kids on the block versus an established way of ice dancing - putting all the value on very highly skilled technical content and acrobatics - defended by two very celebrated veterans.

6. Add in the chauvinism. Tessa and Scott are Canadians. Canada is a humongous nation in figure skating. The Canadian fans, the Canadian fed and many pundits massively start downplaying the new wind that Gaby and Guillaume bring, and putting again all stress on technical merit.

7. Gaby and Guillaume are intimidated and make technical mistakes in the season 2016-17. At the same time they bring a very avant-garde free dance program that needs time to develop and to get accepted by the public.

8. The judges seem to be caught up in the fray and are picking sides, leaving all objectivity behind. The bottom is reached at Worlds, where very blatantly some judges simply ignore a near-fall from Scott, putting Tessa and Scott on top.

9. Any bias is denied. Tessa and Scott have won on merit alone, is the Canadian message.

10. At the start of the Olympic season, Gaby and Guillaume show a huge technical improvement, while keeping their artistic level and the influence of modern dance.

11. The judges acknowledge this by awarding them world record after world record. In the one head-to-head, Gaby and Guillaume are placed above Tessa and Scott.

12. Come Olympics. In the team event, Tessa and Scott get the same scores as before. Canada still wins gold. The medals of the team event are counted in Tessa's and Scott's personal medal count, even though it is blatantly obvious that this is ridiculous: the team event is a recent invention, individual skaters have no access to these medals, and only skaters from three countries can at the moment win such a medal. If you are born in any other country, you miss out on half of the medal options. So comparing medal counts across skaters while including the team medals is not an honest practice.

13. Short Dance. Tessa and Scott skate their very best and receive a massive score. Gaby and Guillaume are unable to skate anywhere near their best due to Gaby's dress being undone. Miraculously, Gaby and Guillaume lose only one level. Still it makes the gap between them and Tessa and Scott quite large.

14. Judges include a French and a Canadian judge. The latter is also the president of the Canadian fed, which hosted a nationals event that was so openly chauvinistic it resembled extreme-right festivities.

15. Free Dance. Both teams skate superbly. With a similar level of technicality, Gaby and Guillaume are again rewarded for the extra artistry they bring to the ice, and win the Free Dance competition. But not by enough to close the gap of the SD.

16. The French judge is not drawn to judge the FD. The Canadian judge however IS drawn. Even with the disaster of the dress in the SD and the large gap, calculations show that the fact that the Canadian judge is in the panel while the French judge isn't makes the difference between Gaby and Guillaume closing the SD gap and taking the gold and Tessa and Scott getting the upper hand.

17. The Canadian fed, Tessa and Scott themselves and of course the hordes of Canadian fans and pundits not only ignore but simply deny all of the above and claim that Tessa and Scott have won the gold on merit alone. They are claimed to be the best ice dancers ever and far above Gaby and Guillaume.

Which is about the only thing that really really annoys me, as it obviously distorts reality.
A bit ridiculous of me to expect anything else probably, because the whole of Western history shows that truth and honesty were never ever anything of any value. On the contrary.

Thank you for your post Gotlev, it sums up perfectly how I feel. The grass can be any color now indeed and GOATs are free to graze it (which reminds me of a poster on FSU with a great motto: "only goats are true GOAT" ) I wish we could discuss those things however we want though because in the end, as long as no one is getting insulted, I don't see the harm. Like everyone here the double standards are what annoys me the most as long as this "best of the best who ever set a foot on the ice" type of discussion hence my GOAT comments. All I wish for, from now on, is a healthier atmosphere between fans which I'm sure will happen because pre-V/M return it was pleasant to be an ice dance fan. Sure there were upsets and sometimes anger but it never went overboard which is why people telling us all fans are the same whoever the team is, is plain false. One of those new fashionable false equivalency a bit like Hillary or Trump both are equally bad for the country. To be completely frank here, I used to enjoy V/M a lot when I discovered them on youtube after my love for skating came back. But once this insanity started two years ago, I felt like the air was sucked out of the competitions. Their mere presence on the ice was like nobody else mattered to anyone including commentators and above all, I felt sorry for all the other canadian teams. Sure they have charisma by the gallons and they're great skaters but the atmosphere around their presence is just not enjoyable, not because of them of course, but because of all the circus which comes with them: the fans, the bias canadian commentators, the will they/won't they nonsense, the endless fairy tale story of how they started so young, all that fake entertainment and forced narrative which take away from the real competition and real skating. As a result, even if I can recognize their immense qualities, I cannot enjoy their performance anymore. I just hope this won't happen to Gaby and Guillaume and after those Olympics when I started hearing Didier G. and Candeloro wanting them to sell themselves and their programs more, the subtext was clear: become more like the V/M brand, well become a brand. I think it's so remote from their personalities as I mentioned in a post earlier that this has fortunately very little chance to happen. I hope the fact the dance world right after these Olympics fully embraced what they're trying to achieve on the ice will help them keep pursuing what it is they want to achieve within their art/sport.
Finally, Alain, we can't not have you on this thread, this wouldn't be a Gaby and Guillaume's fan thread without you

Gotlev said:

Whole post

Click to expand...

I don't think it could be written better than that.

Yes, in 2016-2017 PapaCiz made (too) many technical mistakes against a near perfect Tessa&Scott 2 times. Worlds was a travesty, but it's like people sere stuck in the 2016-2017 season, of course the 2 youngsters would improve, we saw it coming, and we saw it EVERY single year, the gap between one summer and the start of the season starting 2014 in terms of improvement was just a lot.
But I remember that the internet fury started before we even got to see the programs. I wasn't aware of that. If anything I thought the Gaby&Guillaume fans would be the one being very pissed after Worlds, and then I got to see all those nasty comments.
And yes this year they were technically superior because they simply stop making mistakes but moreover again a huge improvement, they put in the work. Against V/M who did make much more mistakes. This is nothing new, it's like last year but reversed.

But somehow this is an outrage which shows one thing : people are always complaining that Ice Dance is rigid and not moving foward, and you have to wait your turn to win. Yet when it happens (in 2015 already, and this year too), they were the first to complain. What was a very deserved win, and a very very strong GP series for PapaCiz turned into a political maneuver. It wasn't even question of "Look how the French skated well", but "The fix is in". And then you try to explain to them with technical arguments (litterally 2-3 point loss sometimes) but it's not enough, because... "it shouldn't be that way". This got me really fed up.

This year, I thought the V/M ubers were just unbearable. And if some of them read that and cannot see it, let me tell you that you have issues (or are blinded). The hate on social media still goes on, it's incredible, even after a win. Apparently it's an outrage they won the FD, or that the NY Times is writing articles about them, and they are here spreading all sort of lies.
And no, after seeing all of the comments posted you cannot talk about P/C ubers vs V/M ubers, because the former doesn't have the numerous of fans of the other. This just doesn't compare, at all. I don't know how they got to have so many hateful ubers to be honest. Maybe if they were not painted as the gods that CBC think they are it would be better. Apparently the opposite team programs is "easy to do, in style and execution", yeah right. If you are a figure skating specialist and you say that, change your job immediately (especially if you have students. They won't go anywhere in this case).
When I joined the forum I was so happy to discuss figure skating and my favourite skaters&teams, but it did got a bit toxic at times. And I was wishing for V/M to be done very quickly, so that we could get rid of their ubers. Initially I was SO happy for them to comeback, they're one of my favourite team on the ice... I guess I didn't expect the hate.

@ cocotaffy : I have the same "fear", I don't want Gaby & Guillaume to make up stories to be relevant, or to ride the media wave too much if that's not what they want. They are very discreete people and I think we appreciate them for that because they'd rather speak with the skating - and that's what speak to us. You can keep your private life private, it's none of our business anyway. It did reassure me when Gaby said "what we like is skating", because I don't want them to skate to have opportunities (a lot of single skaters do that unfortunately, but you lose this sense of love for the sport).

cocotaffy said:

"only goats are true GOAT"

Click to expand...

Now I have a mental image of a goat in skating boots, frantically trying to get all its legs going in the same direction on the ice while the music plays on. Thank you, I needed the laugh!

I've found that over the past few weeks, it's been helpful to make liberal use of the ignore button and just not engage in certain conversations, here or elsewhere. The problems that have been discussed are in many ways systemic and it's going to take a lot of time, work and care to remove them. I don't have any high opinion of the IJS's interest in putting in that time, work or care (or, of course, the equally necessary money), so it seems to me that the best I can do is enjoy the work that Gabi and Guillaume do with such integrity despite being stuck in a flawed system, cheer on other talented and enjoyable skaters who are doing good work too, and support the reform of the system as a whole rather than focusing on any individual case involving skaters I may or may not like. Because it is a wider issue, a Fan Fest thread doesn't feel like the most effective place to have that conversation, that's all. It needs a bigger audience and more voices. There are some interesting threads on the topic in the Edge forum right now, in fact, though they're focused more on singles skating than ice dance.

As for Candeloro's opinions, as a skater he was a great showman - still is, in fact (still doing backflips on ice this past December...) - so it makes sense to me that he'd assume others should adopt the strategy that was successful for him. Coming from him, it's just an opinion. DG is another issue, because he has financial influence and appears to be on a power/ego trip of excessively long duration, but he's an issue for the French Federation to get its act together and deal with, and in the meantime, Gabi and Guillaume, and Romain, seem to have become rather adept at nodding, smiling and slipping neatly out of his clutches to go off and do their own thing, and do it so superbly that he has no cause to throw tantrums. I'm not afraid for them. I just want to see their Dancing on Ice appearance, and then get back to anticipating Worlds...because I'm sure they're going to be absolutely splendid.

Harriet said:

Now I have a mental image of a goat in skating boots, frantically trying to get all its legs going in the same direction on the ice while the music plays on. Thank you, I needed the laugh!

Click to expand...

Well here you go then, enjoy ! Maybe this should make it to the Olympic Gala in 2022.

cocotaffy said:

after those Olympics when I started hearing Didier G. and Candeloro wanting them to sell themselves and their programs more, the subtext was clear: become more like the V/M brand, well become a brand. I think it's so remote from their personalities as I mentioned in a post earlier that this has fortunately very little chance to happen.

Click to expand...

If there is a god(dess), indeed, it should never happen. Goodness, it would instantaneously kill whatever is so special and attractive about Gaby and Guillaume, and result in the complete opposite of the aim!

Gotlev said:

If there is a god(dess), indeed, it should never happen. Goodness, it would instantaneously kill whatever is so special and attractive about Gaby and Guillaume, and result in the complete opposite of the aim!

Click to expand...

Actually, I do think there are commercial opportunities out there for them that wouldn't necessarily conflict with their approach to skating. And opportunities that wouldn't necessarily be open to any other skaters. It 's just a question of finding brands whose values align with your own. Cult of personality advertising isn't for them though, which is what I think people are talking about here.

Finally, we discuss it and I want to share a few ideas. When V/M announced their comeback I was excited. They promised to bring something new and to be someone new. And I was disappointed because of neglected mistakes, the Worlds controversy and the outrage of their fans. I did not like their Moulin Rouge routine although it was rather impressive and athletic. I saw too much of Carmen and other old programs there. But it was the issue of my preference and I never tried to impose this opinion on others. They finally managed to produce a clean skate at the Games and won. God bless their skating skills, competitve spirit, the abovementioned judging system and so on.
What makes me really sad is the ice dance queue, narrow-minded thinking, tons of hatred everywhere, judging issues, the stupidity and intolerance of our TV commentators who want to see 'more of a man' in Cizeron, lots of people thinking that P/C's skating is too simple (they say a girl must sit on the boy's neck just to prove that she can), etc. All that is so stupid and is killing this beautiful sport for me. Of course, I will continue watching Gabi and Gui because I am absolutely in love with what they are doing. But now I am frustrated and need motivation to love ice dance in general.

cocotaffy said:

Finally, Alain, we can't not have you on this thread, this wouldn't be a Gaby and Guillaume's fan thread without you

Click to expand...

Indeed!!

icetigger said:

Actually, I do think there are commercial opportunities out there for them that wouldn't necessarily conflict with their approach to skating. And opportunities that wouldn't necessarily be open to any other skaters. It 's just a question of finding brands whose values align with your own. Cult of personality advertising isn't for them though, which is what I think people are talking about here.

Click to expand...

From what I understand, it wasn't about doing advertisement, but about turning Gaby and Guillaume into a brand. Start selling THEM as something. Commercializing what is special about them, the magic they bring. Seems like a doomed (and stupid) effort to me...

Gotlev said:

From what I understand, it wasn't about doing advertisement, but about turning Gaby and Guillaume into a brand. Start selling THEM as something. Commercializing what is special about them, the magic they bring. Seems like a doomed (and stupid) effort to me...

Click to expand...

I don't agree. Their actually being artists is something that I think can be emphasised and re-inforced, and aligned through appropriate sponsorships. There are plenty of brands that have their roots in artistry, quality of product, and attention to detail, which are Gabby and Guillaume's hallmarks. They are few and far between nowadays, but they do exist. That recent article in The New Yorker where MS was compared to a Balanchine work is an example of branding. Not an obvious one, but one nevertheless. They do have something to sell here. And as much as people might not like the sense that they are being commercialised, as long as they keep the roots of what they do strong and healthy, I see no reason why they might not do it successfully without any impact on the things that have made us fans.

For example if I were a high end audio equipment manufacturer for whom how music feels is important, I would look to create an advertising campaign using them where how important the feel of music is can be demonstrated through their movement. Communicating high end audio product is difficult because one only ever has the speakers one already has to listen it as an audience member- a visual communication of that idea is actually valuable in advertising terms, and that's what G and G have. As long as it's a brand which demonstrably shows that the feel of the music is important to them, I see no conflict of interest for G and G between artistic and commercial goals in functioning as ambassadors or within marketing materials of such a firm.

Yes, it is all about the skating for them (and that's something I wholeheartedly admire), but that in itself is a commercially attractive position for the right kind of brand, and as long as the advertiserial focus is aligned with that, I don't have a problem with them being commercialised.

I don't disagree with you Icetigger. You are probably right, even though I feel it would need subtlety. Which is what you describe.
But do you think that what you describe is what Gailhaguet and Candeloro have in mind when they want to sell Gaby and Guillaume?