Full backloadin to be new normal for Ladies?

Mista Ekko · Feb 21, 2018

After the halfway bonus was decided, I'm assuming several coaches and or skaters
toyed with the idea of placing their entire jump arsenal in the second half of the FS,
But were probably afraid that the judges would penalise them for having unbalanced programs,
If they could even finish those programs.

Well the judges, Who have allowed for that type of SP to become a popular commodity
in the past few years, Have made it clear that they support it in the Free skate by, probably,
Making that kind of program the winner of the Ladies Olympic title

If Zagitova keeps competing it is probable that her competitors will start
practicing those kind of Free skates in order to beat her, And younger girls would start getting adapted
to that structure, As some Ladies schools already have students doing it regularly in the Short

I'm not asking "Good or Bad?" right now, But if it becomes a necessity, Is it possible that
Ladies skating is about to turn on it's head so to speak?

Mussique · Feb 21, 2018

Let's play Find the contradiction™ (Figure skating fans edition):

•"Skating is more than jumps and spins!!"

•"Backloaded programs don't have anything in the front!!"

drivingmissdaisy · Feb 21, 2018

Nothing in figure skating is set in stone. If backloading becomes more regular and impacts the quality of a lot of programs, the rule could be changed. Right now, one senior is doing all jumps in the second half of both programs, so it's still a rare athletic achievement.

chopinskate · Feb 21, 2018

I sure hope not.

Mista Ekko · Feb 21, 2018

Mussique said:
Let's play Find the contradiction™ (Figure skating fans edition):

•"Skating is more than jumps and spins!!"

•"Backloaded programs don't have anything in the front!!"

All i'm asking is if Free skates are about to become a very different thing in the next few years

You know a FS with 100 seconds of jumps in the second half is a new concept

It might actually be a cool thing

Mussique · Feb 21, 2018

More like I disagree with the concept of "empty" you have, probably.
But as they said above, in sports it all depends on how many people do it, since difficulty is adjusted accordingly.

Mista Ekko · Feb 21, 2018

Mussique said:
More like I disagree with the concept of "empty" you have, probably.
But as they said above, in sports it all depends on how many people do it, since difficulty is adjusted accordingly.

Would it look better if i changed it to "Backloaded"?

I just figures a backloaded program has like 2 jumps in the front and 5-6 in the back

chuckm · Feb 21, 2018

Fact is, backloading makes a freeskate with all the spins and footwork up front and all the jumps at the end rather boring for spectators. If all the skaters started doing it, the less capable skaters would be falling on most of their jumps by the end, and the majority of skaters would likely fall into the "less capable" category. That isn't exactly going to build audience viewership.

I'm hoping the ISU will put an end to such a possibility by setting a limit on the number of jumps that can earn a bonus in the second half of the program.

BossT · Feb 21, 2018

chuckm said:
Fact is, backloading makes a freeskate with all the spins and footwork up front and all the jumps at the end rather boring for spectators. If all the skaters started doing it, the less capable skaters would be falling on most of their jumps by the end, and the majority of skaters would likely fall into the "less capable" category. That isn't exactly going to build audience viewership.

I'm hoping the ISU will put an end to such a possibility by setting a limit on the number of jumps that can earn a bonus in the second half of the program.

U DO NOT decide for ME WHEN and HOW I WILL DO my jump passes! Don't say stupidity! IF U WEAK and can't DO jumps in end of programs - - IT'S YOUR PROBLEM!
And may be the third-points throws also be kicked out of basketball? Not funny? U can do it, and I can't. And WHAT??

reneerose · Feb 21, 2018

It won't be if the ISU changes scoring to discourage the backloading of complex jumps. Maybe that now that enough skaters have tried the harder jumps/quads/triples, the whole "bonus" points thing should just be removed altogether to level the field for skaters that don't do well on the complex jumps later in the program and who are better in the PCS part. Just go back to pre-bonus judging, then backloading would stop. Just remove the bonus altogether.

Shayuki · Feb 21, 2018

No because it's actually difficult.

For ladies it'll only be "an issue" until more skaters learn quads and 3As.

VenusHalley · Feb 21, 2018

God please no.

I wouldn't mind meaningfully backloaded programs.... but doing so for sake of the 10% bonus should be discouraged and hammered down in PCS.

(and since we can use a music with lyrics now... I would love to see somebody skate to Björk's "Declare Independence"... it would be great for backloaded program, because it starts soft and gets louder and more aggressive as the song progresses. Maybe Evgenia would be capable of pulling it off?)

itsallok · Feb 21, 2018

I like watching no-jump first halves. You can just enjoy the programme, with a flow that jumps often break.

Mista Ekko · Feb 21, 2018

VenusHalley said:
(and since we can use a music with lyrics now... I would love to see somebody skate to Björk's "Declare Independence"... it would be great for backloaded program, because it starts soft and gets louder and more aggressive as the song progresses. Maybe Evgenia would be capable of pulling it off?)

The audience would be running out the building :rofl:

Mathman · Feb 21, 2018

BossT said:
U DO NOT decide for ME WHEN and HOW I WILL DO my jump passes!

No, but the ISU does.

Or at least, the ISU decides how much of a bonus to give to skaters who choose to put their jumps in the second half. I expect that the ISU will revisit this rule next year. We'll see. A relaxation of the bonus rule (say, the bonus applies only to 4 jumps in the second half) would actually give skaters more freedom of choice. They could still backload all 7 jump if the wanted to, or they could space out their jumps more evenly if that layout better suited the vision and choreography of the program.

Shayuki · Feb 21, 2018

itsallok said:
I like watching no-jump first halves. You can just enjoy the programme, with a flow that jumps often break.

Yep. All the good backloaded programs have a very enjoyable first half to watch. It's my favorite jump layout.

chuckm · Feb 21, 2018

BossT said:
U DO NOT decide for ME WHEN and HOW I WILL DO my jump passes! Don't say stupidity! IF U WEAK and can't DO jumps in end of programs - - IT'S YOUR PROBLEM!
And may be the third-points throws also be kicked out of basketball? Not funny? U can do it, and I can't. And WHAT??

The ISU can decide to put limits on bonuses. Their concerns are about losing viewers, which costs them money.

Sam-Skwantch · Feb 21, 2018

Mussique said:
Let's play Find the contradiction™ (Figure skating fans edition):

•"Skating is more than jumps and spins!!"

•"Backloaded programs don't have anything in the front!!"

It’s hilarious if you think about it but there will always be people in this sport and who follow it who will do everything in their power to make the sport adhere to their personal perception and preferences. Freedom is not something they want to give to the judges and skaters unless it’s for something they like.

Balance IMO is simply matching the balance of your athletic performance to the music and choreography. Some skaters have stronger spins or steps and they should be able to decide where best to put it. Maybe their spins carry a bigger impact than some of their jumps. Heck some may just want extra points. So what? Let the skaters find the best way to accomplish what work best for them and let the judges judge it.

I’m not sure if I like or even care if a skater backloads or front loads or middle loads but I think they should be able to try anything they want. I like that the youngsters can be more competive through blade to ice physical action with more established skaters who are getting “reputation” PCS. Physically I think those points are well earned in the last half. If it doesn’t satisfy some people’s artistic desires I really don’t think I could care any less about that. I’m sorry but that is the last thing I want to see the rules addressing.

My solution:

No bonus in SP except if your last element is a combination jump :popcorn:

Second half bonus for all jumps in the FS.

gkelly · Feb 21, 2018

chuckm said:
Fact is, backloading makes a freeskate with all the spins and footwork up front and all the jumps at the end rather boring for spectators.

Depends on the spectators, and depends on the program.

Some spectators like to focus on the more ambitious step sequences or choreo sequences that skaters might prefer to place early in the performance; others are only interested in the jumps.

Some skaters/choreographers do a good job of constructing a program to tell a story or match a musical structure that builds to a climax depicted by jumps; others just stick their elements wherever they think they can earn the most points.

If all the skaters started doing it, the less capable skaters would be falling on most of their jumps by the end, and the majority of skaters would likely fall into the "less capable" category.

Skaters who fall on most of their jumps if placed at the end of the program but who can land them at the beginning of the program are going to place them at the beginning of the program. The fall deduction alone would cancel out the second-half bonus on triple or lower jumps, not to mention negative GOEs and more likely underrotations and downgrades.

Even if they can rotate and land the jumps late in the program, the difference between 0 and +1 GOE is often greater than the value of the second half bonus. If the skater can only earn pluses when jumping on fresh legs, that's when she'll plan her jumps.

Skaters will try to maximize their own base values and likely GOEs. Planned base value alone is not worth it if you can't actually rotate the jumps to earn what you planned, let alone if you lose points to lower GOEs and fall deductions.

Shayuki · Feb 21, 2018

chuckm said:
Fact is, backloading makes a freeskate with all the spins and footwork up front and all the jumps at the end rather boring for spectators.

You seriously think so? From my discussions with casual viewers / ones who are watching for the first time in 4 years if ever, they actually find backloading interesting as it's very different and isn't opening with a jump like everyone else. They also seem to like -3Lo combos because it looks "cool" that they bounce right back up rather than taking their time with the combo and it looks very impressive to them.

And Zagitova seems to be the favorite of the majority of them for some reason.

Full backloadin to be new normal for Ladies?

Mista Ekko

Mussique

drivingmissdaisy

chopinskate

Mista Ekko

Mussique

Mista Ekko

chuckm

BossT

Match Penalty

reneerose

Shayuki

VenusHalley

itsallok

Mista Ekko

Mathman

Shayuki

chuckm

Sam-Skwantch

“I solemnly swear I’m up to no good”

gkelly

Shayuki

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