2017-18 State of Japanese Ladies skating

tjb · Mar 15, 2018

hanca said:
Maybe that’s why her success rate of landing it in competition is not particularly high? Relying only on speed rotation may work during practice, but in competitions, with a bit of adrenaline in her body and things may not work the same way.

A few months back we were discussing here whether it is more important to jump higher or rotate faster. (Or both). If you look at the interview of Trusova’s coach, they started doing the quads because her jumps were quite high. So the height of the jump does matter!

i'll say that her success rate at landing 3A in competitions is exceptionally high in comparison to other ladies. she has more problems with skating the rest of the program, than with 3A itself.
i believe that the jumps with lower height and higher rotation speed are more consistent in general. take someone like kolyada, his 4Lz is unbelievably high , but success rate in landing is about 10-15%
on the other hand nathan chen's 4Lz are amongst the lowest in height, it only depends on the rotation speed, but nathan lands his 4Lz consistently

yume · Mar 15, 2018

Yes it seems that Skaters can have more control on lower jumps. Must be why Satoko is less prone to falls and pops.

FCSSp4 · Mar 15, 2018

Even after I wrote about Rika's success rate on 3A, people are still arguing it's an inconsistent jump for her. Seriously? :sarcasm: There's a difference between consistent and landing it when it matters. Trusova landed 4S and 4T when it mattered, but can anyone really say she's consistent with it knowing that she only landed 4S twice and 4T once? We can celebrate Trusova's success without comparing Rika to her, the amount of vitriol this girl is getting is unbelievable especially when she just landed 3A3T for the first time in all history a few months ago. If you're not happy with her performance in WJC, FINE but stop putting the poor girl down.

rika's 3A is lower in height than trusova's 2A.

Okay, gotta debunk this right now. Rika's 3A is 52cm-48 cm in height (data is outdated and her 3A looks bigger now to be honest) and Trusova's 2A is measured at 41.2cm. Rika's 3A is bigger by 10 cm in height max and 7 cm minimum. In fact, Rika's 3A isn't that much smaller than some men.

Anyway CDP is soon and excited to see Kaori, Mai and Yuna. Kobe girls jump technique is so impressive and only seems to improve with age esp. Kaori. So rare to see consistent jumpers with great height and distance.

yume · Mar 15, 2018

I can't remember the last time that Mai did an apparent mistake in the free skate. Or Kaori in short program.

Li'Kitsu · Mar 15, 2018

FCSSp4 said:
Even after I wrote about Rika's success rate on 3A, people are still arguing it's an inconsistent jump for her. Seriously? :sarcasm: There's a difference between consistent and landing it when it matters. Trusova landed 4S and 4T when it mattered, but can anyone really say she's consistent with it knowing that she only landed 4S twice and 4T once? We can celebrate Trusova's success without comparing Rika to her, the amount of vitriol this girl is getting is unbelievable especially when she just landed 3A3T for the first time in all history a few months ago. If you're not happy with her performance in WJC, FINE but stop putting the poor girl down.

Okay, gotta debunk this right now. Rika's 3A is 52cm-48 cm in height (data is outdated and her 3A looks bigger now to be honest) and Trusova's 2A is measured at 41.2cm. Rika's 3A is bigger by 10 cm in height max and 7 cm minimum. In fact, Rika's 3A isn't that much smaller than some men.

Anyway CDP is soon and excited to see Kaori, Mai and Yuna. Kobe girls jump technique is so impressive and only seems to improve with age esp. Kaori. So rare to see consistent jumpers with great height and distance.

Thank you! Rika surely didn't have a great JWC, but people are being really harsh on her right now... she messed up her 3As, but she's normally quite consistent with them and 3As are hard, okay? I'm not even fan, though I do like her, but there really is no reason for so much "criticism".

IMO in general Japanese ladies have pretty nice jumps, relatively many have good technique, quite a few get good height/ice coverage (Kaori, Rika H. and Waka in seniors, Nana and Mako are basically the biggest jumpers in Juniors right now) and lots of them look smooth and effortless (Mai, Yuna, Kaori...). They also still have the biggest numbers of ladies trying for 3As, and tbh I don't even see many of the amazing Russian ladies we have get that one, as most of them simply don't have a 2A that's good enough (not saying no Russian lady will get any, but the affinity for the 3A still seems higher in Japan - and 3As are just cooler then quads, okay?

). The Japanese ladies are doing fine, there are many young, talented girls that are already really good and will only get better. Majorily they don't seem to be rewarded the same way by judges, but I doubt adopting different "strategies" like backloading will do that much of the trick (read: if the political part is missing). The only thing they can do is improve more and be as consistent as possible to force the scores to come - and I'm sure they'll do.

matmuh · Mar 15, 2018

yume said:
I can't remember the last time that Mai did an apparent mistake in the free skate. Or Kaori in short program.

she doubled her 3S in SCAC (not sure if it counts as apparent :biggrin:

), and then you have to go back to 2016 COC , she had occasions where she altered her layout but managed to skate clea (not counting the UR since you said apparent mistake)

tjb · Mar 15, 2018

FCSSp4 said:
Okay, gotta debunk this right now. Rika's 3A is 52cm-48 cm in height (data is outdated and her 3A looks bigger now to be honest) and Trusova's 2A is measured at 41.2cm. Rika's 3A is bigger by 10 cm in height max and 7 cm minimum. In fact, Rika's 3A isn't that much smaller than some men.

it's a 17/30 frames 3A, how is that 52 cm in height? lol. just because some random guy in a blog said it's 52 cm it does mean that it's actualy 52. i can say it's 80 cm, so what? with this ammount of frames it's 43-45 cm at best. and no, her 3A is not bigger this year, it's still the same 16/17 frames.
there is men with 75 cm high 3A, and i can't remember any man who jumps lower than 50 (well, may be nathan and patrick).
41.2 is an average height of all trusova's 2A's, including her last jumps in the FS, not some "measured" one.
rika does a 3A as her first jump in the program

FCSSp4 said:
Even after I wrote about Rika's success rate on 3A, people are still arguing it's an inconsistent jump for her. Seriously? :sarcasm: There's a difference between consistent and landing it when it matters. Trusova landed 4S and 4T when it mattered, but can anyone really say she's consistent with it knowing that she only landed 4S twice and 4T once? We can celebrate Trusova's success without comparing Rika to her, the amount of vitriol this girl is getting is unbelievable especially when she just landed 3A3T for the first time in all history a few months ago. If you're not happy with her performance in WJC, FINE but stop putting the poor girl down.

yes, trusova is very consistent with her quads. she wasn't consistent just 2 months ago, but at JWC i was 100% sure that she lands at least one. because in practices she lands 80% of her attempts.
and honestly i can't understand why people are making a big deal out of 3T combo in 2018.
all of eteri's girls can add 3T to any jump if the landing is not horrible, they are able to jump 3T without any speed into it (and so does rika), so i can't see a big difference between 3A and 3A-3T, or 4T and 4T-3T. sasha also can do 4S-3T, but she's not doing it just to keep her triples in the bonus (but hopefully she lands it once in a competition just to become a first lady who landed a 4-3)
for me rika's biggest achievment is not a 3A-3T, but a first 8 triples program

yume · Mar 15, 2018

You are free to go praise Trusova in russian ladies thread or her FF. There is enough place.

Li'Kitsu · Mar 15, 2018

tjb said:
it's a 17/30 frames 3A, how is that 52 cm in height? lol. just because some random guy in a blog said it's 52 cm it does mean that it's actualy 52. i can say it's 80 cm, so what? with this ammount of frames it's 43-45 cm at best. and no, her 3A is not bigger this year, it's still the same 16/17 frames.
there is men with 75 cm high 3A, and i can't remember any man who jumps lower than 50 (well, may be nathan and patrick).
41.2 is an average height of all trusova's 2A's, including her last jumps in the FS, not some "measured" one.
rika does a 3A as her first jump in the program

yes, trusova is very consistent with her quads. she wasn't consistent just 2 months ago, but at JWC i was 100% sure that she lands at least one. because in practices she lands 80% of her attempts.
and honestly i can't understand why people are making a big deal out of 3T combo in 2018.
all of eteri's girls can add 3T to any jump if the landing is not horrible, they are able to jump 3T without any speed into it (and so does rika), so i can't see a big difference between 3A and 3A-3T, or 4T and 4T-3T. sasha also can do 4S-3T, but she's not doing it just to keep her triples in the bonus (but hopefully she lands it once in a competition just to become a first lady who landed a 4-3)
for me rika's biggest achievment is not a 3A-3T, but a first 8 triples program

IIRC, that "random guy on that blog" is basically doing these analysis' for a living. Consistency is measured on competition success, not what you do in practices. Or I guess Yuzu was super consistent with his 4S back in 2013-14. Rikas 3A is (so far) more consistent then Sashas quads - deal with it. Also, obviously Rikas 3A3T is a big deal - no, "your faves" can't tag 3Ts on anything, given they can't even land 3As in competition at all. Maybe next season they will, and what the Russian girls are doing already is obviously awesome as well - but again, there is no need to put down Rika.

Edit:
Isn't that frame-counting method developed by Mishin? Funny, because "the random blog guy" actually works with Mishin sometimes :biggrin:

Shayuki · Mar 15, 2018

Li'Kitsu said:
IIRC, that "random guy on that blog" is basically doing these analysis' for a living. Consistency is measured on competition success, not what you do in practices. Or I guess Yuzu was super consistent with his 4S back in 2013-14. Rikas 3A is (so far) more consistent then Sashas quads - deal with it. Also, obviously Rikas 3A3T is a big deal - no, "your faves" can't tag 3Ts on anything, given they can't even land 3As in competition at all. Maybe next season they will, and what the Russian girls are doing already is obviously awesome as well - but again, there is no need to put down Rika.

It really shouldn't be that high(52cm) with such air time. Trusova's 2A is 16 frames and listed at 40cm. And even with one's eyes, you can pretty clearly see that Rika's 3A isn't very high. It's based around swift rotation.

Still, what I don't really understand is this consistency argument. The situations are completely different. Rika's really not been that consistent, in fact I'd say she's been rather inconsistent with her 3A. She sometimes has landed it and other times has not. When it comes to Trusova, it's more of a progress for her. She didn't have a good quad early in the season, then her quad got good, and then she started landing it all the time, practice and competitions. Because of that, comparing to early season with "consistency" just doesn't seem accurate, because the entire state of the jump has changed. It's a "progress" issue, not "consistency".

As for the +3T, I guess it's a big deal as an accomplishment, but really isn't a very big deal from a program construction standpoint. There are huge diminishing returns on performing a second 3A and with Rika's consistency I don't think it even is worthwhile. She would get better returns by scrapping the second 3A and performing a +3Lo combo instead. Her current layout only gains 0.34 points in BV in comparison to a single 3A layout including a +3Lo combo. If even that.

tjb · Mar 15, 2018

Li'Kitsu said:
IIRC, that "random guy on that blog" is basically doing these analysis' for a living. Consistency is measured on competition success, not what you do in practices. Or I guess Yuzu was super consistent with his 4S back in 2013-14. Rikas 3A is (so far) more consistent then Sashas quads - deal with it. Also, obviously Rikas 3A3T is a big deal - no, "your faves" can't tag 3Ts on anything, given they can't even land 3As in competition at all. Maybe next season they will, and what the Russian girls are doing already is obviously awesome as well - but again, there is no need to put down Rika.

i'm not putting rika down in any means, but you actually putting sasha down for no reason (and in a japanes ladies thread). she wasn't consistent with her quads just a couple of month ago (not in practices, not in competitions, i don't really see a difference between those two), but not anymore, she improved a lot since then, and very consistent now in practices. and we will see next season her consistency in competitions, i'm sure she will be ok, there is no need in putting her down.
and yes she can add 3T to every jump she can land.
just an example (and i don't think that such combo is a big deal in 2018)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYTSSExls7g
but yes she can't add 3T to her 3A, just because i've never seen her landing a fully rotated 3A, but i'm sure as soon as she gets her 3A ready there will be 3A-3T in place (at least in practices, in competitions there is no reason for such combo)

jabberwocky13 · Mar 15, 2018

If you want to continue bashing Rika and her low jumps, please refrain from doing so in the Team Japan thread. We are all here to be supportive to the Japanese ladies who are all extremely talented, and you clearly are not

rikaquegira · Mar 15, 2018

tjb · Mar 15, 2018

jabberwocky13 said:
If you want to continue bashing Rika and her low jumps, please refrain from doing so in the Team Japan thread. We are all here to be supportive to the Japanese ladies who are all extremely talented, and you clearly are not

i'm not bashing her jumps, i'm just saying that her jumps are not big. trusova jumps not the biggest as well (nana araki has the biggest jumps on the junior circuit). i like japanese ladies especially rika (i wish egoistically that she stays for another year in juniors to compete with my favorite russian juniors ladies).

Grin · Mar 15, 2018

jabberwocky13 said:
If you want to continue bashing Rika and her low jumps, please refrain from doing so in the Team Japan thread. We are all here to be supportive to the Japanese ladies who are all extremely talented, and you clearly are not

Saying that Rika's 3A is mostly based on her rotation speed isn't bashing. No one calls her a jumping machine with no artistry or smth like that.

yume · Mar 15, 2018

All those Trusova avatars, talking about Rika's jumps.......and saying that it's not bashing.:disapp:

Grin · Mar 15, 2018

yume said:
All those Trusova avatars, talking about Rika's jumps.......and saying that it's not bashing.:disapp:

My avatar has nothing to do with Rika's jumps. It's a temporary avatar to celebrate new era in ladies figure skating. I'm going to change it in a week or two.
Anyway, I have nothing but respect to Rika and her team for pushing ladies figure skating forwards. Wish her good heights on her jumps and steel nerves.

Shayuki · Mar 15, 2018

yume said:
All those Trusova avatars, talking about Rika's jumps.......and saying that it's not bashing.:disapp:

Was I bashing her? If so, how? I believe I've been supportive of Rika throughout and have wished for her success throughout the season. In principle, I don't understand how calling relatively small jumps small is "bashing". The 3A / Rika's jump air time just is not very great and relies on fast rotation... That's just how it is. That's discussing reality, not bashing. I'll note, my favorite skater in the world has small jumps that rely on fast rotation.

As for avatars, what does that have to do with anything? I believe that's approaching ad hominem...

samkrut@mail.ru · Mar 15, 2018

jabberwocky13 said:
If you want to continue bashing Rika and her low jumps, please refrain from doing so in the Team Japan thread. We are all here to be supportive to the Japanese ladies who are all extremely talented, and you clearly are not

For a record, bashing any skater in any thread is bad style and even against this board's rules. On the other hand, this is not "Team Japan thread" and whatever the name could be it would not meant to be a forum of support of "extremely talented Japanese ladies". There is "Fan fest" section for that. You could try to read "Team Russia thread" from the beginning to appreciate the amount of the critique, comparisons, and outright bashing. It is not like that now mainly because of the insurmountable 500+ page long body of work of "the regulars". The rest just gave up.

yume · Mar 15, 2018

Evidently there is some biased comments about Trusova. Like saying that her quads are consistent because she lands them in practice. Suddendly there is no difference between competition and practice.
Or "she wasn't inconsistent, she was progressing"
Meanwhile, saying that Rika's 3A -3T is not a big deal.
Totally objective comments.

2017-18 State of Japanese Ladies skating

tjb

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yume

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FCSSp4

yume

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Li'Kitsu

matmuh

what are levels anyway

tjb

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yume

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Li'Kitsu

Shayuki

tjb

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jabberwocky13

rikaquegira

tjb

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Grin

yume

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Grin

Shayuki

[email protected]

Medalist

yume

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