Should PCS scores reflect Technical Errors?

fredtx121 · Jun 14, 2018

So if they are revising the technical side of scoring, they should also mark more penalties against the PCS scores if elements are not completed, falls, etc.
Zagitova with all her falls and backloading her program unsuccessfully should of gotten PCS scores for performance much lower. I believe she should of received mid to high 7s, not 8s for performance at the World Championships.
I just don’t get how Wakabas awesome performance scored only1 pthogher in PCs to zagitovas sloppy performance in PCs

chopinskate · Jun 14, 2018

The judging standards should have been looked into. Unfortunately, that will never happen.

Colonel Green · Jun 14, 2018

I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the PCS categories themselves. The issue is more or less exclusively with how the judges use them.

moriel · Jun 14, 2018

fredtx121 said:
So if they are revising the technical side of scoring, they should also mark more penalties against the PCS scores if elements are not completed, falls, etc.
Zagitova with all her falls and backloading her program unsuccessfully should of gotten PCS scores for performance much lower. I believe she should of received mid to high 7s, not 8s for performance at the World Championships.
I just don’t get how Wakabas awesome performance scored only1 pthogher in PCs to zagitovas sloppy performance in PCs

I am clueless why you people bash so much Zagitova, while Kostner gets 75 PCs for this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkJMM6egNYQ
If you want to start revising PCs, you should start from here.

drivingmissdaisy · Jun 14, 2018

Reputation scoring will always be a part of PCS and, to a lesser extent, GOE. You can easily find instances of well known skaters earning too high scores for mediocre skates. If you want the highest scores, you need to put together several strong skates and/or be known as the best skater from your country.

yume · Jun 14, 2018

PCS? Judges' candies? Noooooooo,they will never be revised, never. Or just only to up them.

OS · Jun 14, 2018

Yeah... What a fun and uplifting thread...

I think the whole thing can be solved if the judge's GOE and PCS buttons are fitted with an electric shock mechanism and a lie detecting bracelet. Where if the judges fall out of the parameter into heavy bias (according to a computer algorithm that calculates according to the corridors, patterns, judge's history, federation loyalties, peer reviews etc), they will get a huge electric shock along with a giant electric index finger signage pointing downwards in their direction in BOLD RED LED lights. Followed by Drones flew in carrying vuvuzela blowing, and enormous fans blow wind beneath their feet. I bet the sport will enjoy an unprecedented rise in popularity with this new 'judge's aid'... Kiss and Cry may be renamed 'Kiss, and Cry, plus laughs and finger pointing'.

fredtx121 · Jun 14, 2018

moriel said:
I am clueless why you people bash so much Zagitova, while Kostner gets 75 PCs for this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkJMM6egNYQ
If you want to start revising PCs, you should start from here.

Zagitovas scoring at the worlds was just an example. Kostner is the poster child for ridiculous inflation of PCS. What really was shocking was how low Michelle Kwans scores for PCS were when this system was put in place and how much Slutskayas rose. Like others have said judging corruption at its best. The new rules technically definitely puts Nathan Chen at a disadvantage. Once the ISU sees someone they don’t want on top anymore, they change the rules in favor of the skaters they want.

yume · Jun 14, 2018

OS said:
Yeah... What a fun and uplifting thread...

I think the whole thing can be solved if the judge's GOE and PCS buttons are fitted with an electric shock mechanism and a lie detecting bracelet. Where if the judges fall out of the parameter into heavy bias (according to a computer algorithm that calculates according to the corridor, patterns, judge's history, federation loyalties etc), they will get a huge electric shock along with a giant electric index finger signage pointing downwards in their direction in BOLD RED LED lights. Followed by Drones flew in carrying vuvuzela blowing, and enormous fans blow wind beneath their feet. I bet the sport will enjoy an unprecedented rise in popularity with this new 'judge's aid'... Kiss and Cry may be renamed 'Kiss, and Cry, plus laughs and finger pointing'.

Genius!

Shayuki · Jun 14, 2018

moriel said:
I am clueless why you people bash so much Zagitova, while Kostner gets 75 PCs for this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkJMM6egNYQ
If you want to start revising PCs, you should start from here.

Agreed. Kostner's the greatest benefactor of the current PCS system and honestly, considering how high some of her terrible performances(especially in free skates) get, you can't really call Zagitova overscored in comparison.

It all starts with that one skater that the judges feel like scoring up to the heavens and then them having to judge every other skater in relation to them, causing many skaters' scores to skyrocket.

Sam-Skwantch · Jun 14, 2018

No need to include penalties if they would just reduce PCS and it’s impact on scores. I’d prefer it only worth about 20pts,

Up to 10pts for connection to music and 10 pts for overall impression. Everything else is TES or redundant.

Sorrento · Jun 14, 2018

The next big step for ISU could be a TES and a PCS programs. Why calling them technical and artistic programs, come on, leave those abbreviations and get them jump in TES program and dance in PCS program. Period. Also- for PCS program- get back to 6.0 judging system. Everyone would be like

moriel · Jun 14, 2018

Sorrento said:
The next big step for ISU could be a TES and a PCS programs. Why calling them technical and artistic programs, come on, leave those abbreviations and get them jump in TES program and dance in PCS program. Period. Also- for PCS program- get back to 6.0 judging system. Everyone would be like

Nah, this would be boring. I already hate dance, and cant imagine what if half of all the other disciplines was dance.
And singles cant even do lifts =(

drivingmissdaisy · Jun 14, 2018

Sam-Skwantch said:
No need to include penalties if they would just reduce PCS and it’s impact on scores. I’d prefer it only worth about 20pts,

Up to 10pts for connection to music and 10 pts for overall impression. Everything else is TES or redundant.

Yeah, I think the biggest dilemma with scoring will always be the extent artistry should impact placements. Like you, I prefer athletic achievement to prevail as long as the artistry is present.

gkelly · Jun 14, 2018

Sam-Skwantch said:
No need to include penalties if they would just reduce PCS and it’s impact on scores. I’d prefer it only worth about 20pts,

Up to 10pts for connection to music and 10 pts for overall impression. Everything else is TES or redundant.

Where would you put Skating Skills?

CanadianSkaterGuy · Jun 14, 2018

OS said:
Yeah... What a fun and uplifting thread...

I think the whole thing can be solved if the judge's GOE and PCS buttons are fitted with an electric shock mechanism and a lie detecting bracelet. Where if the judges fall out of the parameter into heavy bias (according to a computer algorithm that calculates according to the corridor, patterns, judge's history, federation loyalties, peer reviews etc), they will get a huge electric shock along with a giant electric index finger signage pointing downwards in their direction in BOLD RED LED lights. Followed by Drones flew in carrying vuvuzela blowing, and enormous fans blow wind beneath their feet. I bet the sport will enjoy an unprecedented rise in popularity with this new 'judge's aid'... Kiss and Cry may be renamed 'Kiss, and Cry, plus laughs and finger pointing'.

There wouldn't be a single judge left. They'd all be electrocuted.

CanadianSkaterGuy · Jun 14, 2018

Sorrento said:
The next big step for ISU could be a TES and a PCS programs. Why calling them technical and artistic programs, come on, leave those abbreviations and get them jump in TES program and dance in PCS program. Period. Also- for PCS program- get back to 6.0 judging system. Everyone would be like

A PCS program is absolutely unnecessary, IMO - the judging bias would be through the roof given how subjective it is. Literally there would be nothing preventing a judge from putting their favourite skater in first and saying "Well I thought they were the most artistic!".

You would see placements similar to ice dance pre-IJS, where skaters progressed up the rankings at a snail's pace and only when their "superior" predecessors retired.

randomfan · Jun 14, 2018

Lately, the ones with the most inflated PCS are Medvedeva, Kostner, Zagitova, and Osmond. I’m going to put down how I see the inflations of these four, so if you don’t want to see it, you can just scroll down and skip everything below.

Medvedeva received way too big of a PCS boost in her first senior season (SA - 31 in the SP which equals 62 in FS is fine, but she suddenly gets a 67 out of nowhere), and now judges feel that she needs to keep being scored higher so she can “dominate” the sport. Yes she is a fantastic performer and has difficult programs packed with transitions, but my question is...is she really THAT much better than the others? Miyahara and Higuchi should be contending with those PCS scores, yet they’re always VERY behind...

Don’t even get started on the whole “reward consistency” thing. That’s what the medals and rankings are supposed to do.

Kostner has had a long history of inflation, but at least there were a number of times when she was the clear PCS winner. Other than transitions, she has always been very skilled in the PCS categories and always has a charismatic way of drawing in the audience. The only reason why her PCS are still problematic is because she’s so inconsistent, and the mistakes do somewhat disturb the performances. So the constant 74-75s she got this season are completely wrong, I agree, and believe me, there were many instances when her PCS should’ve been way below 70. But hey, at least she still does her best to stay in character even after the mistakes, and sometimes, they are only small portions of an otherwise wonderful performance (of course not Euros 2018 though).

Zagitova is the opposite. She is never anywhere near the top in terms of artistry yet we see her PCS at the top. Her PCS climb is very similar to Medvedeva’s, but the difference is that Medvedeva at least engages the audience and emotes with the music, while Zagitova’s transitions get in the way of a high-quality performance and makes everything she does rushed and not with the music. Landing jumps on the beat is impressive, but not enough to warrant those PCS. She has been getting better at presenting her programs as the season progressed though, so I hope that she can finally reach a stage when she truly deserves such PCS (though I have my doubts about her skating to POTO).

Osmond is the lesser severe case here, but I still included her because she’s like a mix of Medvedeva and Kostner. Like Kostner, she was always known to be a lively performer, but her inconsistency interfered with it (2015-16 was understandable because it was her recovery period). And like Medvedeva, she’s strong across the board, but is she really THAT much greater than the others?

I’m sorry if I got too carried away and for being off-topic, but it’s very irritating to see the same people always score high for whatever they do while others with similar skill levels have to work even harder to get anywhere near those PCS.

Mathman · Jun 14, 2018

Sam-Skwantch said:
No need to include penalties if they would just reduce PCS and it’s impact on scores. I’d prefer it only worth about 20pts,

Up to 10pts for connection to music and 10 pts for overall impression. Everything else is TES or redundant.

I think the present weighting system is closer to your ideal than you realize. Taking the men's short program (unfactored) as the base line, right now you get max 10 points for overall impression (presentation) and 20 points for connection to music (interpretation and composition together). As gkelly reminds us above, there is also the "tech" part of the PCSs: skating skills (speed, depth and control of edges, which certainly deserve some consideration) and transitions.

I would hate to see transitions treated as "redundant." Even under 6.0 skaters were constantly encouraged to work on their "in-betweens." I would, however, favor more specific emphasis on moves like Ina Bauers, spread eagles, split jumps and other non-scored technical elements. To me, this falls under "demonstrating mastery of the full skating vocabulary."

Isn't this

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-ItpNfKEl5...1600/Julia+Lipnitskaia+FS+SC+2013+(getty).jpg

worth as much as the half-loop in a triple-triple combination? (0.5 points)?

CanadianSkaterGuy · Jun 14, 2018

randomfan said:
Lately, the ones with the most inflated PCS are Medvedeva, Kostner, Zagitova, and Osmond. I’m going to put down how I see the inflations of these four, so if you don’t want to see it, you can just scroll down and skip everything below.

Medvedeva received way too big of a PCS boost in her first senior season (SA - 31 in the SP which equals 62 in FS is fine, but she suddenly gets a 67 out of nowhere), and now judges feel that she needs to keep being scored higher so she can “dominate” the sport. Yes she is a fantastic performer and has difficult programs packed with transitions, but my question is...is she really THAT much better than the others? Miyahara and Higuchi should be contending with those PCS scores, yet they’re always VERY behind... Don’t even get started on the whole “reward consistency” thing. That’s what the medals and rankings are supposed to do.

Kostner has had a long history of inflation, but at least there were a number of times when she was the clear PCS winner. Other than transitions, she has always been very skilled in the PCS categories and always has a charismatic way of drawing in the audience. The only reason why her PCS are still problematic is because she’s so inconsistent, and the mistakes do somewhat disturb the performances. So the constant 74-75s she got this season are completely wrong, I agree, and believe me, there were many instances when her PCS should’ve been way below 70. But hey, at least she still does her best to stay in character even after the mistakes, and sometimes, they are only small portions of an otherwise wonderful performance (of course not Euros 2018 though).

Zagitova is the opposite. She is never anywhere near the top in terms of artistry yet we see her PCS at the top. Her PCS climb is very similar to Medvedeva’s, but the difference is that Medvedeva at least engages the audience and emotes with the music, while Zagitova’s transitions get in the way of a high-quality performance and makes everything she does rushed and not with the music. Landing jumps on the beat is impressive, but not enough to warrant those PCS. She has been getting better at presenting her programs as the season progressed though, so I hope that she can finally reach a stage when she truly deserves such PCS (though I have my doubts about her skating to POTO).

Osmond is the lesser severe case here, but I still included her because she’s like a mix of Medvedeva and Kostner. Like Kostner, she was always known to be a lively performer, but her inconsistency interfered with it (2015-16 was understandable because it was her recovery period). And like Medvedeva, she’s strong across the board, but is she really THAT much greater than the others?

I’m sorry if I got too carried away and for being off-topic, but it’s very irritating to see the same people always score high for whatever they do while others with similar skill levels have to work even harder to get anywhere near those PCS.

I will say, with these skaters, they tend to bring a consistent level of performance (with some exceptions.. e.g. Zagitova's Worlds FS). I'm not saying Kostner and Osmond's scores are always justified (they aren't), but they are consummate performers who always showcase a quality of skating and a level of performance regardless of how those jumps are on the day. With Zagitova and Medvedeva it only works when they are clean (if they make mistakes, they just start going through the motions) - although, let's be honest, they are wayyy cleaner than Kostner and Osmond - however, when Med/Zag fall apart, the program falls apart too, whereas no matter how good or bad their jumps are, Kostner and Osmond always deliver a strong performance.

To me, therein lies the difference in terms of PCS. If a skater falls apart technically and doesn't deliver the performance, their PCS should be way lower than it is for a clean performance. But if a skater falls apart technically but still tries to deliver a performance, they should get much lower PCS than usual but not AS low as skaters who call it in and just go through the motions once they realize they're not going to win.

Should PCS scores reflect Technical Errors?

fredtx121

chopinskate

Colonel Green

moriel

drivingmissdaisy

yume

🍉

OS

Sedated by Modonium

fredtx121

yume

🍉

Shayuki

Sam-Skwantch

“I solemnly swear I’m up to no good”

Sorrento

moriel

drivingmissdaisy

gkelly

CanadianSkaterGuy

CanadianSkaterGuy

randomfan

Mathman

CanadianSkaterGuy

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