2014-2018 Mens in Review: Rise of the #sQuad

[Step Sequence4]

Personally my favourite out of the three is probably Shoma, but Nathan is close behind so if those two are top two at an event I don’t really care what order they place. An unpopular opinion, but I’m not a big fan of Boyang at all, I’ve never really been able to figure out why because he was a favourite of mine as a junior. I’d prefer Kolyada over Boyang to be completely honest, nothing against Boyang but he just doesn’t have that X-Factor in my opinion. But I applaud how much better his artistic side has gotten lately. I’m a pretty big fan of Kolyada and Aliev I really enjoy watching them (not so much Mikhails horrible Elvis program) and Zhou is okay. I’d say Shoma deserves the best PCS then Kolyada, then Aliev, the Jin/Chen and then Zhou.

 

[charlotte14]

I vote for a change in thread title. This isn't a review of men's skating over the last quad at all, it's a discussion about three men in particular.

And I'm in the camp that Boyang and Nathan are very similar in terms of PCS. It's just that Nathan benefited from an unprecedented USFS propaganda campaign about how incredibly artistic he is, and Boyang didn't have that.

And also I've never been a fan of "sQuad" only relating to these three. There are a lot of very talented men out there landing quads. Not sure why a special moniker that implies these three are the only ones is given to them.

Boyang is the one gets the least benefits from the inflation due to his nationality.

 

[Danny T]

I vote for a change in thread title. This isn't a review of men's skating over the last quad at all, it's a discussion about three men in particular.

And I'm in the camp that Boyang and Nathan are very similar in terms of PCS. It's just that Nathan benefited from an unprecedented USFS propaganda campaign about how incredibly artistic he is, and Boyang didn't have that.

And also I've never been a fan of "sQuad" only relating to these three. There are a lot of very talented men out there landing quads. Not sure why a special moniker that implies these three are the only ones is given to them.

Oops, sorry for the confusion Rather than discussing all the men (I mean, I don't mind if we do in this thread, it'll be great), I think the rise of the trio has largely shaped the direction of this Olympics quad. They are representative of the change and/or the ones pushing for quads like we have never seen before. Many other men do quads too, but I guess these three come to mind first because they do the most quads with some semblance of consistency and have been on the podium/close to podium in most mens' events. Plus, they all turned senior around the same period give or take, so there's that.

I would love if anyone can add insights in Kolyada, Aliev, Zhou ... and other men to the discussion too. I just don't follow others than these three enough to give as detailed comments in the OP.

 

[chopinskate]

Boyang is the one gets the least benefits from the inflation due to his nationality.

Let's not engage in these theories about PCS here and try to be objective. Stuff like this can be unpacked elsewhere.

 

[Tutto]

I would love if anyone can add insights in Kolyada, Aliev, Zhou ... and other men to the discussion too. I just don't follow others than these three enough to give as detailed comments in the OP.

I am a bit surprised that Kolyada hasn't been mentioned more in this thread - after all, both the GPF and Worlds podiums were: Nathan, Shoma & Mikhail.
Kolyada has arguably the best jump technique and SS to match, all he needs is more consistency and better programs. Will he be ever consistent enough to dominate - I am not sure (and that coming from his biggest fan ...sigh). But even considering this season he didn't perform to his potential he already beat Boyang more than once in competitions and other two in individual segments so I wouldn't disregard him lightly. To my (granted -biased!) eye he is most complete skater of the 'squad' because his jump technique way better than Shoma's and his SS are better than Boyang's and Nathan's. Judges love the quality he produces on all his elements -jumps, spins, stqs so his GOE are higher than others (when he delivers). He is also a natural performer and I see in him glimpses of Javi. If only he had a half of Shoma's competitive spirit...

Aliev is a fine skater but his lack of stamina prevents me from enjoying his skating, his spins need a bit of work and his jump technique is vulnerable to UR calls.

Zhou I don't follow much but he seems to be an UR prince, why his coaching team pressing so many quads on him totally ignoring jump quality not to mention SS & spins I can't imagine but the result is so often painful to watch. No argument that the potential is there though.

 

[icybear]

Does Boyang have so much more one foot skating that it makes an impact on the program as a whole compared to Nathan's one foot skating? Or does it require an ardent fan to sit down and count the total seconds on one foot so he can announce to the world such a difference? Let's not make say, a 65, sound like it's so much more impressive than say, a 60.
Also, the post you are addressing was referring to step sequences, which are usually done on one foot anyway, so your point is moot. In addition, one foot vs two foot skating only constitutes one aspect of skating skills.

There's no need to get so agitated by one statement

 

[eppen]

After witnessing the miserable men's FS last group in the Worlds live, I don't feel all that hopeful for the youngsters... But hey, I guess they can still surprise me!

But I am hoping that in the coming years Nathan Chen will redeem the promise that he is showing now. He was a bit of a disppointment live - slow and doing not a whole lot between the jumps. His StSqs were very good, but in the SP it was just about the only place where he actually performed and came alive. Otherwise, a whole lot of twofooted posing between jumps. But considering the way high PCS seems to accompany high TES almost automatically, I don't know how much motivation Nathan will have to improve his SS and TR. Not to mention the rest of the PCS categories. And how much time will he have with a college work load added to his training?

The more I look into Shoma, the less credible and more fake he seems as a well-rounded skater. Jumps both pre- and underrotated (the quads, 3A seems to be good) - what is there in between, a double?? His interpretetive skills seem to be limited to what he has been doing since he started in seniors - the programs are all very much alike musically and as routines, no variation in movement styles whatsover. His transitions also often consist of twofooted posing with dramatic arm movements. I don't know whether it his own (lack of?) musicality or the poorly constructued choreos, but hardly anything he does seems to match what happens in the music (usually it looks more like a coincidence if they do match). He usually has a long pause in the middle of his FS after the steps to catch up with his music; I once timed a particularly long period he stood in one place doing absolutely nothing, 8 seconds (which is just about how long it takes to do a 3A or a quad even with the whole preparation and transitions)... Also, his ice coverage is pitiful in the FS - the first half of Turandot was spent almost completely on the right half of the ice (where most of his elements are also done), saves a lot of energy not having to skate that much, I guess. I would be interested to see him have another choreographer (his coach does them now, right?). But again, as his jump technique gets rewarded with high scores and he gets also huge PCS, so no motivation to try anything else or to develop as a skater.

Boyang Jin has perhaps the best jump technique of these guys, but he is fairly seriously lacking in many other aspects. Like level 2 steps??? Seriously?! He can do a credible SP, but his performace skills are not sufficient for the FS. He has gotten a bit better over the past couple of years in that, but not very much in the end.

Kolyada has nice jumps when he can hold on to them, but that is not very often. They were incredibly ambitious technically this year, going for two new quads and the first time doing 5 altogether in each competition, but it simply did not work out. He has perhaps the best SS of these guys and also a good set of TR, but please get him also another choreographer with more original choices of music (the Javier Fernández recycling is getting on my nerves, because Kolyada does not have what it takes to do that kind of routines). Who knows, maybe he will get either the 4Lz or the 4Sal to work next season along with his (only) slightly more reliable 4T and will be able to do better than this year. He is totally saved by the high BV of the failed quads and the incredibly high PCS he still gets despite falling almost always in most competitions (and not really having a lot to offer in the composition, performance and interpretation categories).

Vincent Zhou I don't even want to think about. Slow as a snail, no other content except the failed jumps. No performance skills whatsoever. He was plain awful to watch.

Aliev has tech problems with his quads, but he was injured most of summer and fall, so the the problems he had with technique and stamina may be resolved if he managed to stay healthy for next season. But he has a bit of charisma, he kind of skates big also. Fairly good and ok SS. I kind of like him a bit better than Kolyada...

Is there anyone else? Samohin? Hard to know what he produces in the coming years, but he could be good if the gets his stuff together. Could he benefit from a change in coach? I would love to see Deniss Vasiljevs do well, but those terrible attempts at 4T in Moscow practice sessions don't make me too hopeful of seeing him do one let alone multiple quads...

E

 

[oatmella]

I think Kolyada and Aliev weren’t mentioned more in this thread (yet) because they aren’t particularly known for their quads and aren’t seen as leading the field in this aspect of skating.
As far as I know - the 3 skaters we’ve been discussing here all got their quads (or at least some of them) at quite a young age.

 

[shine]

There's no need to get so agitated by one statement

Agitated? That’s debatable. And why don’t you respond to the actual content of my post? I’ve seen you repeatedly post this one single line of argument in countless threads and maybe it’s time we actually discussed the validity of it.

 

[xeyra]

I think Kolyada and Aliev weren’t mentioned more in this thread (yet) because they aren’t particularly known for their quads and aren’t seen as leading the field in this aspect of skating.
As far as I know - the 3 skaters we’ve been discussing here all got their quads (or at least some of them) at quite a young age.

I think it was mostly because the OP originally specifically referenced Nathan, Shoma and Boyang (the sQuad), so people stuck to talking about them. Only later did OP widen the discussion.

 

[oatmella]

I see Aliev as having a lot of potential to challenge - especially if he can stabilize his quads. He could be the whole package skater.
Other than Nathan’s Nemesis - I think my second favorite SPs were Aliev’s Masquerade Waltz (thought it was performed beautifully) and Shoma’s Winter (music well matched to his overall intensity)

 

[echeveria]

I see Aliev as having a lot of potential to challenge - especially if he can stabilize his quads. He could be the whole package skater.
Other than Nathan’s Nemesis - I think my second favorite SPs were Aliev’s Masquerade Waltz (thought it was performed beautifully) and Shoma’s Winter (music well matched to his overall intensity)

I’m very excited to see Aliev going forward, I think he can definitely be a medal contender at the next olympics (assuming he doesn’t retire, why would he?) His SP was beautiful this season, I think if he builds up his stamina enough he’ll go very far, he has the musicality, the transitions, the skating skills.

 

[icybear]

Agitated? That’s debatable. And why don’t you respond to the actual content of my post? I’ve seen you repeatedly post this one single line of argument in countless threads and maybe it’s time we actually discussed the validity of it.

Er I have not repeatedly posted this single line countlessly so stop accusing me

 

[Ice Dance]

Nathan is my favorite. I think anyone who can overcome all the injuries he had growing up, topped off by a hip surgery that kept him out of his first senior World Championships--at home, by adding the two hardest jumps currently being performed in men's skating and tearing up the men's field is worth applauding.

As for all your other questions, I like the skating from all three of these young guys. Have seen them all live and think they are all strong skaters and strong performers relative to the field. The men's field is and has been so full of disastrous skates for so many years, I'm thrilled by the reality that we now have several guys who can win on any given day should they perform at their best.

I'm so glad to see some depth again in men's skating. (Though I'll miss Javi).

 

[chopinskate]

As for all your other questions, I like the skating from all three of these young guys. Have seen them all live and think they are all strong skaters and strong performers relative to the field. The men's field is and has been so full of disastrous skates for so many years, I'm thrilled by the reality that we now have several guys who can win on any given day should they perform at their best.

This is such a good evaluation of these three.

 

[Haleth]

I just want to thank people upthread who took time with their answers and really built cases for their replies with detailed, thoughtful examples. That's not something I could do in the same detail yet, so it's nice to learn from those who can. Bonus points for those who come from a place of positivity/love but also are quite clear about the shortcomings they've seen.

Personally I can see why these three men are grouped together as the new faces who can land multiple types of quads with some consistency and who are linked more with the tech side at least in the popular imagination, no matter how much skill they might have in other aspects of fs. I've tended to prefer Shoma and Nathan (SP only) this season, but some people are making good cases for Boyang's improvement since his junior days. In fact, my opinion of Boyang grew in the second half of the season, whereas both Nathan and Shoma seemed more enjoyable to me artistically and musically much earlier in the season. Nathan's powerful Nemesis at Rostelecom inspired me to watch and rewatch, but sadly it never again had such a powerful impact on me. I hope to catch up with any videos made of it at SoI in the hopes it will be even better in that environment. Shoma always had this artistic promise, but nothing struck me as strongly as his FP last season. As for Boyang, he seemed to come alive at the 4CC and Olympics, so I look forward to giving more attention to those performances as I rewatch all three men.

Talking about these three does make me appreciate Yuzuru and Javi even more, though I get why they are not part of this discussion, being fully mature complete-package skaters. I wonder which of the three youngsters will be able to actually get to their level over the next quad. Or is that unfair to the youngsters? Regardless, I hope they all (youngsters, Javi, Yuzuru, everyone really) remain safe from injury and illness and are given the chance to grow for as long as they wish to remain in competitive skating.

 

[century2009]

I like these 3 new male skaters to take over the older skaters as they push the sport to an exciting quad level. They are very different and it creates depth and excitement in mens FS. I usually watch female FS, but it is not as exciting as mens FS because of the dynamic of these new skaters (as well as others like Mikhail and Dimtri).

As the older of the 3, Boyang probably got things started as he introduced new quad. It was new and add new things to the mens field. In watching him through the years, i wish he had more growth and development in his skating. I feel like he is still finding himself because there is just not much in his program other than jumps. He has so much potential and he has gotten better watching his 2018 4cc but he still needs to really work on his artistry to be at the level of Shoma and Chen, and find his voice because I want to know more about who Boyang is other than jumps.

Shoma came next as a young artistic gun with the quads. His quad technique is not as good as Chen or Boyang and does not have the harder quads mastered but his artistry is wonderful. He is a joy to watch with his program and enjoy more his SP this year. Some of the programs could be better but it is his own compared to Boyang. But he does need to work on his consistency and break through because through his senior years, he is always behind someone. First, it was the top guys, but then this year it was his young comrades. He has won Silver in all the major competitions this year, and wondering when he will do it, because he had many opportunities to, and just didnt walk through the door.

Nathan is the new guy that took the quads to another level. I saw him first at the TdeFrance as a 1st year senior and saw huge potential in the young man to have these hard quads and artistry. He has nice movement and skating. With his program layout, I wondered if he can do this because no one has ever done a clean 4 quad program. At the GPF, it was amazing to watch him break through because what a performance that showed he belonged with the top guys and his 1st year as a Senior at that. Then he took it another level with 5 quads, which was unbelievable. Then the following year, he up it with 6 quads, which is crazy. His Nemesis SP is just brilliant. Never heard anything like it in FS. Modern, unique, different and works so well with his personality and quads. Just at his 2nd year as a senior, Chen has really improved and have to give him credit for really becoming the "Quad King" because he earned and proved it. I would like to see more of that brilliant SP in the coming years, and grow in that direction because it is exciting to watch him mature these short 2 years, and look forward to seeing more of him.

 

[friedbanana]

I'm not exactly an uber of any of these younger skaters yet, but I'm fond of them, and I see a lot of potential. I appreciate Boyang's efforts to become more artistic, Nathan's SP was amazing this season, and Shoma, I just really like the way he moves on the ice. While I'll miss the older skaters, I think the next four years will be very, very exciting.

 

[Danny T]

Talking about these three does make me appreciate Yuzuru and Javi even more, though I get why they are not part of this discussion, being fully mature complete-package skaters. I wonder which of the three youngsters will be able to actually get to their level over the next quad. Or is that unfair to the youngsters? Regardless, I hope they all (youngsters, Javi, Yuzuru, everyone really) remain safe from injury and illness and are given the chance to grow for as long as they wish to remain in competitive skating.

I totally agree with this. I hope all the younger guys, Chen Jin Uno Aliev Kolyada etc, stay for the next full quad. They are young enough to further push the technical side, but I would love it if they can refine their technique even more. I want to see more quads, but landed beautifully, and quads out of crazy steps or interesting transitions. In addition, I would predict they would hit the maximum jumping ability within the next quad, and once BV's stuck, the only way left to go is GOE (and PCS, but that's dubious ). I think Hanyu said that the strength of the quadrennial is dependent on its skaters' levels - so I wish them health to achieve even more.

And yes, I did avoid touching on the Patrick Javier Yuzuru trio because IMO it can be rather unfair to pit any of the younger guys against them. Aside from the full package argument, the 'veterans' also have a lot more experience under their belt. The youngest of them Yuzuru turned senior in 2010, a whopping 5 years before Boyang turned senior.

 

[xeyra]

I totally agree with this. I hope all the younger guys, Chen Jin Uno Aliev Kolyada etc, stay for the next full quad. They are young enough to further push the technical side, but I would love it if they can refine their technique even more.

I always find it slightly amusing Kolyada is placed with the younger kids when he's Yuzuru's age.