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- Feb 18, 2014
Quite honestly, I am surprised that costume was allowed!
2014 Nebelhorn Trophy
- Thread starter Alex D
- Start date
Quite honestly, I am surprised that costume was allowed!
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2012
An album of 98 photos from Nebelhorn taken by Robin Ritoss was posted today on ISU Figure Skating's Facebook page:
Figure skaters have skates and ice, ballet dancers have ballet shoes and stage, ballroom dancers are dancing on the floor with dancing shoes…
But the point of any dancing is to explain and express the music – that is dancing, not doing moves while music is playing.
If the couple takes such well known music with well known story danced by famous dancers, it is only logical to expect to see anything from it on the ice.
C&B had more options: 1) they could concetrate on dance style, 2) they could keep story line, 3) they could take both of it (it would be probably the best choice).
Gene Kelly like a tap dancer is constantly in flexion in knees…and in extension…in reality while dancing he is constantly changing knee’s flexion and extension. He was sometimes with round-shoulders, sometimes straight posture, sometimes bent upper body, sometimes not.
Leslie Caron had many balletic pieces. The contrast of tap dance and ballet dance was visible. But there were also some parts with much more free style from her, not really balletic, even doing the same moves Kelly did.
In the story Kelly meets Caron and it was him who was attracted to that woman, it was him who tried to get close to her. The man was the main one, the leader (it is even in title, an American – not American lady).
The cathegory is still called Ice DANCE, so skaters and choreographers SHOULD spend a lot of time thinking about dancing and expressing what is playing at the ice rink, not just performing the elements.
The origin of Ice Dance is in ballroom, that it true. But Ice Dance in those times had very strict and different rules, strict close holds etc. Since that time Ice Dance changed dramatically and became almost anything you can bring on the ice.
To avoid dancing saying that it is not a ballet, tap dance, Hip-Hop, some skaters even say that it is not a ballroom…this is not excusing the fact that music and story should be expressed perfectly, especially by those who call themselves Ice DANCERS and especially those who are fighting for medals.
I don’t expect from Reed & Rogov that they will be technically great and that their dance‘s ability and the whole concept of the program will be on high level. But I definitelly expect those things from couples who flirt with top 10 at World Champs.
I would say that skaters can bring any dance style / story / concept on the ice, if they have enough imagination, courage and if they put a big effort into it.
By the way…
Grishuk & Platov‘s FD in 1995 – using tap dance imitations, Brodway style - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IdGgAY1-hng
Gene Kelly - Singing in the Rain with Kurt Browning and Denis Ten:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZBqqX3eVuRc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fyqtnX54HmQ
Michael Flatley was also tap dancer and Bourne & Kratz transformed his routines into the dance on the ice - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pZxdCZUAPjo
Ballet routines on the ice – I would put Oksana Baiul and her Swan program on the first place.
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
I don't think it is necessary for skaters to act out a story just because they choose familiar music. As for Chock and Bates, IMHO Madison is the centerpiece of that duo no matter what the title of the song says. But I think Evan is coming along nicely.His "lead" seems more firm, or something like that.
I came across some more images from Nebelhorn - Johanna Welnicki Photography has posted 147 photos on Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.640089152771687.1073741835.286903201423619&type=3
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.640089152771687.1073741835.286903201423619&type=3
I wrote B&S, I&Z&K&S… I meant six dancers, not three couples.
(I don’t count Virtue & Moir, because they don’t compete and I personally don’t believe that they will really come back. But taking them into account, they would be the best two technical skaters, a little but above those six.)
Every skater has his/her own skating skills. So everything starts from one single person…That is why I didn’t put attention that we didn’t see new couples, because once you have great skating skills, you don’t loose it with changement of partners having great skating skills also…
Skating skills like one of Component means:
Overall skating quality, edge control and flow over the ice surface demonstrated by a command of the skating vocabulary (edges, steps, turns etc.), the clarity of technique and the use of effortless power to accelerate and vary speed. Varied use of power/energy, speed and acceleration.
Criteria:
•Balance, rhythmic knee action and precision of foot placement
•Flow and effortless glide
•Cleanness and sureness of deep edges, steps and turns
•Power/energy and acceleration
•Mastery of multi-directional skating
•Mastery of one foot skating
•Equal mastery of technique by both partners shown in unison
Only the last requirement – equal mastery for both partners - talks about the whole couple like one…so this is the only thing we don’t know not seeing new couples…
Those six dancers have the most deep edges from today’s competive skaters - http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=30bkz00&s=8 …
They have rhytmic knee action – Lena and Nikita probably the best and the most fluent knee’s action in the world, then others, the worst is Victoria…
Everybody of them is very fast skater, B&S and Sinitsina and Zhiganshin were able to skate fast even with difficult choreography.
They are all gliding greatly etc.
Simply taking any of those requirements (except the last one) I don’t find any other today’s dancer to execute it better.
Sure, Victoria‘s stiffness and poor knee action from gala in May is frightening, but she was never done this before with Ruslan and I refuse to believe that what was Vika learnt under Kustarova for years – she lost under Zueva after month and half (when her edges and skills were great at World Champs in April), so I put this under stress reaction and the fact that ice surface was smaller than usual.
You probably mean an Element Score. When new judging system appeared, I frankly believed that this is the mark equal with Technical Merit and that it shows technique of the couple. It is not true.
We know that couples like Coomes & Buckland are technically weak, but they have great lifts. Also very weak skaters like Sthork & Rand or Reeds are able to get all levels 4 for lifts. So, visibly lifts are not about skating skills of the dancers. And how about spin? Looking at Junior Grand Prix ecent - a girl who gets Skating Skills for 4.93 points is able to execute spins level 4. So it is visible that level 4 spin is also not the mark of great technique.
Until last season FD included 5 lifts and 1 spin – the base value of those 6 elements were maximally 21.2 points. At last season’s World Championships base element value of top ten couples were from 38.1 to 41.7 – so those six elements (lifts and spin) which have nothing to do with real skating qualities took more than 50% of the base value.
So we have Twizzles and Step sequences only to represent skating skills in Element Score. But how you want to judge Twizzles when somebody is doing them from no speed and has no ice coverage and somebody else has shaky Twizzles but uses higher speed and covers more ice – who is better? Judges are sure – the slower one….is it really so right? Skating skills describes speed, acceleration, gliding…..not standing on one place to execute clean Twizzles….
And what about step sequences? Edges must be correct, but is there any way how to describe and point DEEP edges, speed, acceleration? At last World Champs technically weaker Cappellini & Lanotte who has always problems with keeping some at least moderate edges got level 3 twice like I&K, S&Z got level 3 and 2.
With B&S out of World Champs 2014 I&K and S&Z were skaters with the deepest edges and the best gliding, the best arcs – for step sequences I&K got GOE +2.00 and +1.71…..Cappellini & Lanotte got GOE +1.57 and +1.57…Weaver & Poje got GOE +2.14 and +1.57 (even with Andrew’s bent free leg and small speed)…Sinitsina & Zhiganshin got GOE +1.57 and +1.00…
I lost faith that the Element Score would be a real measure of skaters technique….so I watch what demands to equipment of great technician and I judge it like that (between the elements part of programs are helpful a lot)…and sometimes I am surprised when comparison of Element Score reflects the real technical comparison of couples…but it doesn’t happen as often as I would like to…
That is true. Dance program doesn’t always need a story, it can be a pure dance.
Althought it is not very logical – try to take Phantom of the Opera, Carmen or Romeo & Juliette and say that this program has no story, you are just dancing…
If the couple and choreographer choose pure dance than it should reflect the mood of the music perfectly. Tap dance imitating movemenst would fit some of music cuts but it would be possible to find another dance style.
Make an experiment and watch C&B’s last three FD from past seasons without sound, compare them and look for different dance style. You will see that all three programs are too similar, which is surprising when the first one is Dr. Zhivago, another Les Miserables and now American in Paris.
Do you remember Virtue & Moir programs? Their Valse Triste, Umbrellas of Cherbourg and Funny Face? Was it similar? Of course not…different music and different characters means another dance style – that is called variability of dancer.
Sphilband surely remembers those V&M’s dances, so why he didn’t put more energy into creating choreography for C&B which would really express the music with no similarity to their previous dances? This year Sphilband brought some flirtatious arm movements into Madison’s choreography (nicely done by her) but the rest of the choreography was the same like FD from two previous years.
I agree that Madison is the one you watch while the couple is skating, I would say that she is the leader in the couple, at least I took her like that. But I prefer to have two dancers on the ice instead of one dancer and her companion (because she can’t lift herself).
Sphilband should start to think how to make Evan better in both technique and presentation and frankly coming into next Olympic quad I expected that this will be one of coaches main task. I was wrong.
- Joined
- Nov 8, 2013
sisinka, thank you for taking the time to share you analyses with us. It's nice to have a concrete set of claims to get the debate going. I appreciate that all your opinions are supported by clearly written observations of the skating itself. I haven't finished catching up to all the recent dance events yet, but I will keep your assertions in mind while I watch.
Hawayek and Baker didn't borrow that curve lift from Virtue and Moir. They used it last season as well, and I remember reading they were excited when they realized VM was doing the same lift as them because they thought it would impress upon people how difficult it is (they were skating Juniors at the time).
I think Evan and Madison balance each other out. Evan is the stronger skater, and Madison is the stronger performer. All they have to do is rise to each other's level, and they will be great. In fact, I think Evan has become a much better performer over the last couple of seasons.
It's funny, I am used to always hearing that Evan is the visibly better skater.
I think Evan and Madison balance each other out. Evan is the stronger skater, and Madison is the stronger performer. All they have to do is rise to each other's level, and they will be great. In fact, I think Evan has become a much better performer over the last couple of seasons.
It's funny, I am used to always hearing that Evan is the visibly better skater.
Because maybe Ilinykh and Bobrova and Katsalapov are all actually better skaters than Shibs and Weaver and whonot? Who else today should be the standard? Also, I/K and B/S finished higher than C/L, C/B, W/P, and Shibs last season. B/S missed last year's Worlds due to injury, otherwise the already diluted World Podium of 2014 would have looked much different.
This is all very true, sisinka. I can't believe how people still don't know this already. For example, in the past year and before that even, this forum would hop on the bandwagon of a certain dance team if they had high TES: "They are technically the best skaters and ice dancers...just look at the TES!" or "Look at the Level 4s, this shows their superior technique to everyone!" while degrading other team(s) who had miles better skills and abilities across the ice that they just "aren't comparable" because their TES/base values are not as high. What total BS.
Although what is frightening is the hypocrisy. In the 2012 season, V/M's Funny Face FD was undefeated all season (GPF, 4CC, Worlds). They had the highest TES in each of these competitions. Yet, these same people I mentioned above claim that V/M undeservedly "robbed" that other team of the gold, because they felt that other team was so technically perfect and were the best technical competitors (even though that other team's TES was lower than V/M in the FD at GPF, 4CC,and Worlds, and lower than V/M and even P/B in the SD at Worlds).
And to further your point, I hate what the key points in the SD have become. Just have a camera/equipment designated at every key point to measure the depth of angle on the edge or something, no need for a human to do it. I mean, it's not about quality at all anymore, and the equipment would ensure lower degree of bias. So stupid. And the so called "creative steps"...What a joke. First they abolish CDs because of bored audience. Replaced with 'stuff everything into 2 minutes, including a CD pattern' program that looks like same to everybody. Quality is overlooked at the expense of racking up TES in some cases, particularly the pattern (which isn't done that well by almost everybody). The people heading the Dance Committee of the ISU are grasping at straws. And the experimental 'division of labour' judging is
and but mostly I would hate if my home judge only marked my PE and nothing else while my rival's judge marked all my other PCS or GOEs. Or my rival getting marked by my home judge on only CH while their home judge marks everything else for them.Not ice dancing is the new ice dancing. Let's see what I/Z bring. Unfortunately, I think S/K are going to have horrible programs. I am curious but not holding my breath. But I will try to watch them with an open mind.
I want Ice Dancing to get cancelled so bad. But not until watching B/S, C/L, I/Z, and S/K. Yes, I am excited to see even C/L's masterpieces from genius 'screw you, Igor' Zoueva
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
I am on the fence on this one. I agree about Phantom of the Opera. One expects the man to try to look scary and menacing (best Phantom - Sergei Sakhnovski). Carmen, though, with such well-defined rhythms and strong hum-a-long melodies, all you need is a little bit of swashbuckling from the man and a femme fatale vibe from the lady and you're off to the races, IMHO. The skaters don't really have to know if the story had a happy ending or a tragic one or whether Carmen was a good girl or a bad. Great music choice for any level, young or old.
To me, it's tricky. We are (perhaps foolishly) trying to make this discipline into a sport, sort of. You can't give a team a lower score than their actual performance merits just because they twizzled the same way as they did last year. (For that matter, does the music of Swan Lake or Romeo and Juliet cry out for the performers to go twizzling down the ice in unison?) My favorite skater -- Michelle Kwan -- did basically the same program over and over to different music -- and she got me every time.
I think there are two problems in ice dance in the United States in general (I don't know about other countries). The first is that there are 100 little girls who want to take up ice dancing for every boy. First you have to pry the boys away from hockey. And the boys that do have an artistic flair are more interested in showing off by skating fast and jumping high in men's singles. So one would expect that even at the elite level there would be quite a few very talented ladies who have to make do with whatever partner comes available. (Not saying that this is the case with Chock and Bates, but just in general).
The second thing is that U.S. ice dancing generally leans more toward pure ballroom and not so much to performance-oriented genres like ballet or to lavish story-telling. This means that male ice dancers in the U.S. do not tend to wear flashy costumes (lots of black
) and that their job is more or less to provide the frame for the lady -- who gets to wear a bright-collored dress and to smile a lot and to swish her skirt back and forth. 
Taking these two points together, I am not surprised when I see a couple in which the lady seems to be the engine that drives the performance. (There are exceptions, of course, like Belbin and Agosto and my current U.S. faves the Shibutanis.)
I should mention this caveat. I have a fondness for all the Detroit teams because, in many cases, I have had a chance to see them in local club shows, etc., growing up, and have even exchanged a few words with them now and then. To me, this makes all the difference in the world.
As for the new Russian couples, we'll have to wait and see, but more power to them. At the end of last year I thought I&K were poised to win everything in sight going forward. It wasn't meant to be.
- Joined
- Aug 1, 2011
:agree:
Thank you for pointing this out. American dancing is VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY different from European dancing. I'm not sure how useful it is to criticize one style of dancing by expecting it to resemble another.
To me, it's tricky. We are (perhaps foolishly) trying to make this discipline into a sport, sort of. You can't give a team a lower score than their actual performance merits just because they twizzled the same way as they did last year. (For that matter, does the music of Swan Lake or Romeo and Juliet cry out for the performers to go twizzling down the ice in unison?)
I think there are two problems in ice dance in the United States in general (I don't know about other countries). The first is that there are 100 little girls who want to take up ice dancing for every boy. First you have to pry the boys away from hockey. And the boys that do have an artistic flair are more interested in showing off by skating fast and jumping high in men's singles. So one would expect that even at the elite level there would be quite a few very talented ladies who have to make do with whatever partner comes available. (Not saying that this is the case with Chock and Bates, but just in general).
The second thing is that U.S. ice dancing generally leans more toward pure ballroom and not so much to performance-oriented genres like ballet or to lavish story-telling. This means that male ice dancers in the U.S. do not tend to wear flashy costumes (lots of black
I didn’t mean the same element did the same way…I meant a dance style.
If you look at Waltz versus Paso Doble – it is visible for everybody that moves and the way you execute them must be different to go with the music style. And this goes for every kind of music. Every dance couple try to be different every season – from hair style, dress, make-up, music…they try to come with music which is very different from what they used seasons before…but because they choose different genres of music, they shouldn’t forget that they should change their dance style and expression into what new music needs.
I think that in past US was in trouble having some good American male dancers…so we had more foreign dancers (mainly from Russia) coming to dance with American ladies – Tchernyshev, Barantsev, Zavozin. Now the situation looks better and Donohue, Baker and Shibutani look to be leaders.
...My favorite skater -- Michelle Kwan -- did basically the same program over and over to different music -- and she got me every time.
Btw I loved Michelle Kwan’s programs in 1996 and 1997, and I wouldn’t say that those two SP and oriental FD were similar, but yes, later she had very similar programs. But I don’t think that a comparison of single and dance skating should be good example. In single skating having great dancing qualities, variety and deep edges looks to be more like a bonus…while in dance cathegory I take it like a necessity for top dancers.
Everybody’s dancing should reflect the music, no matter what country are you from. All dancers use different genres, so I expect that they will be able to show it.
French Pechalat & Bourzat were able to dance greatly American western or American City Lights movie. Virtue & Moir were able to skate Carmen by French composer.
Keeping the idea that the couple takes style which is the same for all couples living in the same country…just look at Davis & White and Virtue & Moir – how much different the couples were…and compare Europeans – Cappellini & Lanotte, Bobrova & Soloviev, Pechalat & Bourzat, Zhiganshina & Gazsi, Riazanova & Tkachenko – where do you see any similarity? Absolutely different dance style, dance approach, different lines, postures, speed, technique etc.
Jumping back to Chock & Bates – so if they have American dance style, it should be the most easy way on the planet…Gershwin was an American, it is an American musical, Gene Kelly was an American, tap dance has big tradition in US…
The point is that if you are great dancer, you can express almost any kind of music. And if you want to be medalist in Ice DANCE cathegory, than you should be able to dance and express different genres, not just use the music of different genres.
Are you really sure that you want to divide dances couple into those with American style and those with European style????
Do you realise that the “master“ who gives every couple “the face and image“ is the main coach, choreographer, technical coach etc? And in case of American/Canadian couples we are talking about Russian and European people. Russians Zueva, Sphilband, Krylova, Epstein or Camerlengo and Scali from Italy. And btw Gilles & Poirier with their very specific choreographies…it comes from Christopher Dean, another European.
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- Jul 26, 2003
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I am sorry, but while Pechalat & Bourzat's Western dance was very entertaining, it was completely inauthentic as a Western dance. The best thing about it was Nathalie's cute red boots.
It is about the only dance of theirs that I didn't like at all. 2009-2010 OD
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WNMOEZvj7Fg
It is about the only dance of theirs that I didn't like at all. 2009-2010 OD
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WNMOEZvj7Fg
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I highly doubt it. There's been too many rule changes since then.
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2012
Another batch of 160+ Nebelhorn photos by Robin Ritoss are in Skate Today's album posted on Oct 5:
"An American in Paris" was the music for the Samuelson/Bates FD that they never competed b/c of his injury.
Whether C/B's choreo bears any resemblance to S/B's choreo is a separate question, at least in part for Mrs. P's reason.
I posted individual links to the Jason photos in his Fan Fest thread.
Lovely one of Mariah Bell on ice:
Cute one of Gold off ice with Leonova:
Lovely one of Mariah Bell on ice:
Cute one of Gold off ice with Leonova:
"An American in Paris" was the music for the Samuelson/Bates FD that they never competed b/c of his injury.
Whether C/B's choreo bears any resemblance to S/B's choreo is a separate question, at least in part for Mrs. P's reason.
Correct. This is not anything new.
The rules from 2011 and the rules now in 2014 remain largely unchanged, even the base levels remain the same. The only thing added is the short level 1 choreographed lift that is in everybody's FD now (holds only a base value of 0.20). Everything else (4 lifts, 2 step sequences, 1 spin, twizzles) are the same. So yes, a simple copy and paste job would suffice. Or in this case, a simple transfer over job, from one defunct team to an existing one. Very smart. Saves time and money too, I bet.
This is not new.
D/W's Samson and Delilah was first choreographed by Zoueva for B&K in the early 2000s before scrapping it for Tarasova's March with Me. Per FSU, people who watched the shortlived B/K's Samson and Delilah created by Zoueva noticed choreographic similarities to D/W's 2009 version, even though B/K's was from the 6.0 system.
In the 2010-11 season, Shpilband/Zoueva gave D/W a choreographed FD to Nino Rota music, which was scrapped by the USFSA officials at Champs Camp. Just the season prior, Shpilband/Zoueva had choreographed a FD to Nino Rota music for Hann-McCurdy/Coreno's Olympic season - this is most likely what D/W's Nino Rota FD looked like:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h0Ti7vTHJA8
And it is not surprising. This couple looks a lot like D/W. The girl also looks like Anna Cappellini.
Also. D/W's original 2011 SD was choreographed to Amelie, but was scrapped by the US officials at Champs camp. Amelie was used by Igor/Marina's team of B/A in 2007. Although Igor/Marina choreographed Amelie for B/A's FD, and not OD.
Most recently, Chock/Bates was given a Les Miserables FD by Shpilband at the Olympics. Little did they know, Igor/Marina Zoueva also choreographed one for Tobias/Stagniunas's in 2011. Also, choreographed by Igor Shpilband, their diagonal step sequence uses the same One Day More music cut as Chock/Bates diagonal step sequence up to the end of the program. I have time-stamped everything:
Tobias/Stagniunas diagonal step sequence: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1S8qe5B4SaY#t=3m38s
Chock/Bates diagonal step sequence: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EY_cKJ91tno#t=3m36s
I can already see Zoueva whipping out the Nino Rota FD (for the third time) from her storage room of pre-choreographies for C/L in the near future.
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