2015 World Team Trophy Mens FS Apr 17

[Tavi...]

For the record, 8 out of the top 10 men at Nats attempted quads in their free skates. Only Jason & Alex Johnson did not. The problem is that only 4 guys - Josh, Max, Doug Razzano and Nathan Chen - were credited with fully rotated jumps. Only Max did two quads, and he is the only one of the 4 guys who got +GOE (and he got it for the combo but not for his single jump).

What that could mean is something as simple as our guys just don't compete enough to work out their quad issues. We may need more emphasis on training & competing quads, but it's a big leap from there to conclude that we don't believe quads are important.

By the way, generalizing about a US mentality - or a Canadian or Russian one for that matter - wouldn't make you a racist, because like many countries, their citizens don't comprise a single race. However, if you said something disparaging about all American whites (aka Caucasians) or blacks (aka African Americans) you might be guilty of both race and national origin discrimination.

 

[deetrakt]

It's a pleasure reading your posts. papagena--they're always so thoughtfully composed, cogently argued and carefully worded.

 

[cheerknithanson]

No, I'm not. People in that particular 4CC thread were, however. As you know, I really like Kevin - I was happy for his success. But there was a lot of "oh, that's all that matters now - quads! The Art of Figure Skating is now dead!" etc going on. You should be glad you missed it.

Sorry. It's just that I get REALLY defensive over him. Like literally the day after the SP for 2015 nationals, I was looking him up on twitter I saw one dude making fun of him and I snapped loudly....in front of my teammates : and I blocked that imbiscle jerk of a glob who dare to mock him.

I'm pretty sure that I would have to have been put in a straightjacket to prevent myself from SNAPPING at them.

 

[Interspectator]

I've been constantly saying Hanyu needs to work on his lutz as it's undoubtedly his weakest triple. More often than not he's off axis, and the 3T he gets off of it is always tight and rarely has flow coming off of it because of how he lands the lutz. Like, it's not a shock anymore if he messes up his combo, and I wish he'd consider a combo like 3F+3T now that his lip has been pretty much sorted out.

Yuzu commented on his Lutz problems recently and said that especially in the short program he is not able to gather enough speed from the difficult transitions leading up to it. He says, 'my skills are lacking.'

But instead of changing the layout, he's probably just going to try to raise his skill level until he can get the right amount of speed out of the transitions. Like his determination with the 4S, he doesn't like to back down or take the easier jump.

 

[WYW]

I've been constantly saying Hanyu needs to work on his lutz as it's undoubtedly his weakest triple. More often than not he's off axis, and the 3T he gets off of it is always tight and rarely has flow coming off of it because of how he lands the lutz. Like, it's not a shock anymore if he messes up his combo, and I wish he'd consider a combo like 3F+3T now that his lip has been pretty much sorted out.

It's his weakest triple so he puts it as the last element of every SP + LP? Being fatigued is a more likely reason for sometimes getting scratching landings or missing it. It is pretty much equivalent to Farris' 3S that he throws on at the end of the program. I have no doubt it that the 3S is a strong element for Farris. But he has been off axis and missed it a few times at 4CC and nationals due to fatigue + difficult entry - same case with Hanyu.

 

[TuTU9678]

As what some people have already said here, I think the skaters' program content reflect their strategies to make themselves the most competitive possible. Afterall these athletes are competing for results. I'm sure a lot of thought and number-crunching go into these decisions, including BV, GOE, PCS, success rate, effect on overall program, stamina, etc.

That said, if the skater's is aiming for the top, the quad might be a necessity. For example, Jason is an amazing skater as we've seen here, however, it would nearly be impossible for him under current ISU rules to beat the likes of Hanyu/Denis/Fernandez without upping his technical (unless the others have major issues). Having already achieved 4th in worlds this year, he unfortunately doesn't have much choice if he wants to improve on his results.

 

[xibsuarz]

That said, if the skater's is aiming for the top, the quad might be a necessity. For example, Jason is an amazing skater as we've seen here, however, it would nearly be impossible for him under current ISU rules to beat the likes of Hanyu/Denis/Fernandez without upping his technical (unless the others have major issues). Having already achieved 4th in worlds this year, he unfortunately doesn't have much choice if he wants to improve on his results.

I agree with that. Jason is an amazing skater and knows how to play with his strong points better than many skaters. He can beat most of the guys in the field, but when you run across the top 3 guys that are rounded skaters, it would be difficult for Jason to overcome them. I've come to think that the lack of quad may be the reason why some judges give him lower PCS sometimes (some may love quads idk). Sure, he can get some really nice, high placements, his 4th place at Worlds and 2nd here is a prove of that. But the difference in score with Denis and Yuzuru was big, and with how the CoP works, he needs to rise the tech content to become a constant podium contender in international competitions when all the top guys are there.

 

[Skater Boy]

It's his weakest triple so he puts it as the last element of every SP + LP? Being fatigued is a more likely reason for sometimes getting scratching landings or missing it. It is pretty much equivalent to Farris' 3S that he throws on at the end of the program. I have no doubt it that the 3S is a strong element for Farris. But he has been off axis and missed it a few times at 4CC and nationals due to fatigue + difficult entry - same case with Hanyu.

But the judges love him anyways so it doesn't matter really. He is pretty overall solid.

 

[MaxSwagg]

But the judges love him anyways so it doesn't matter really. He is pretty overall solid.

Of course! That lady judge on the end (Sissy Krick of GER) was smiling through most of his free skate.

 

[andromache]

Did Jason have a lot more speed here than at Worlds or is it only a difference of camera angles?

I thought T&I was nice at Nationals, very impressive at Worlds, and totally beyond stunning here at WTT. Has his interpretation simply increased so much from performance to performance? Some skaters get tired throughout a season, but not Jason (although next season it will be very important for him to be competition-ready to back up his late-season results with GP medals).

I'm simply shocked by the impact this performance of T&I had on me. I saw the scores and figured it would be very similar to his Worlds performance (which I was impressed by, but I have seen a lot by now). But it was so much better!

 

[Bonesfan]

I've been constantly saying Hanyu needs to work on his lutz as it's undoubtedly his weakest triple. More often than not he's off axis, and the 3T he gets off of it is always tight and rarely has flow coming off of it because of how he lands the lutz. Like, it's not a shock anymore if he messes up his combo, and I wish he'd consider a combo like 3F+3T now that his lip has been pretty much sorted out.

Hanyu's 3Lz-3T seemed okay last season, with GOEs 1.3, 1.5, 1.4 at GPF, Oly, Worlds. It looked worse this season. I think Hanyu has said flip is his least favorite jump, and Orser joked that of all the potential quads, Hanyu would never do a 4F.

 

[HanDomi]

Well Jason situation is in some ways complicated. He can beat most of the mid level guys with quads, can achieve 4th in world, but then he is in the middle btween mid guys and top guys. While he has some advantage of this from mid, he also has quite big gap to this top3. Javier scores may be the closest for him to catch, then Denis, and Hanyu scoring potential is quite unreal for now to catch for anyone but Chan with monster PCS

 

[gmyers]

The thing that confuses me about Kovtun is his layout -- he repeats the 4S, great. But then the other jump he decides to repeat is... the 3S? So basically, he attempts two 4S and one 4T, which is VERY technically ambitious, but then he attempts one 3A, one 3Lz, no 3F (I'm assuming he lips so understandable), no 3Lo, two 3S, one 3T, and then 2 2As. Is he not capable of doing the loop? The fact that he can do two kinds of quads but still does two double axels and not attempting two of the five triples does "throw away" some points, indeed.

This is what I don't get! What's tarasova/buinova doing?!?

 

[gmyers]

oh but since the second triple didn't count, that's quite weird the second lutz doesn't count as well :/

You are right. When the scoring erased the second axel from existing the lutz should count. The salchow was the problem not the axel.

 

[deetrakt]

Did Jason have a lot more speed here than at Worlds or is it only a difference of camera angles?

I thought T&I was nice at Nationals, very impressive at Worlds, and totally beyond stunning here at WTT. Has his interpretation simply increased so much from performance to performance? Some skaters get tired throughout a season, but not Jason (although next season it will be very important for him to be competition-ready to back up his late-season results with GP medals).

I'm simply shocked by the impact this performance of T&I had on me. I saw the scores and figured it would be very similar to his Worlds performance (which I was impressed by, but I have seen a lot by now). But it was so much better!

It seems like this season took longer for Jason to master his programs than the previous one. For one thing, unlike most of the American men (and women), he introduced 2 new programs. (In the Olympic season, he'd carried over his short--Prince's Question of U--from the previous year.) Second, training and mastering Riverdance took a lot out of him physically (I remember him saying that the program was by far the toughest he'd ever done. He lost 15 pounds (!) and had to do a lot of endurance training just to get through a performance.) Third, the Riverdance "phenomenon" took a lot of his time and energy last winter and spring 2014-15. And he toured the country for half of Stars on Ice's post-Olympic run.

I don't think he had both Juke and T&I until a month or six weeks before his first summer competition. Neither one of the programs looked sharp to me until Nationals. The commentators mentioned then that he seemed to be skating faster and jumping higher than in the past. But, I agree with you. He seems to have grown into both programs a lot since then. I wonder if he'll keep one or both of them for next year. I've liked both from the beginning, but I'd especially hope he'll keep T&I for a second year.

PS This may have been mentioned elsewhere, but I've been asking myself whether the fact that he's seemed to fill out a bit and mature physically since last season had an effect on his jumps, and especially the axel, last fall.

 

[Mrs. P]

Well Jason situation is in some ways complicated. He can beat most of the mid level guys with quads, can achieve 4th in world, but then he is in the middle btween mid guys and top guys. While he has some advantage of this from mid, he also has quite big gap to this top3. Javier scores may be the closest for him to catch, then Denis, and Hanyu scoring potential is quite unreal for now to catch for anyone but Chan with monster PCS

An interesting quandary, indeed. At this point the only people left to beat are those 4. On top of that he needs to do what is necessary to stay at the top of that mid-level group, which will include rising stars like Shoma (who beat Jason at 4CC).

Of course, the strategy will also depend where Jason is at this point in his career, as far as current abilities. It wil be interesting to watch. I think at this point they know he has probably gone as far as he could without the quad -- though I suppose there are still tweaks he could do to get extra points. But he needs more than a few points to catch up to the top men.

 

[LRK]

Sorry. It's just that I get REALLY defensive over him. Like literally the day after the SP for 2015 nationals, I was looking him up on twitter I saw one dude making fun of him and I snapped loudly....in front of my teammates : and I blocked that imbiscle jerk of a glob who dare to mock him.

I'm pretty sure that I would have to have been put in a straightjacket to prevent myself from SNAPPING at them.

It's all right - I know how you feel. But you know how some of the competition threads can get - should you feel, in the future, that a thread is "getting to you" too much, my advice is to avoid it. That's what I do. (The best is of course to always remain calm - but, alas, with my irritable temparament, that is impossible. So, I do the next best thing.)

 

[silverfoxes]

It's all right - I know how you feel. But you know how some of the competition threads can get - should you feel, in the future, that a thread is "getting to you" too much, my advice is to avoid it. That's what I do. (The best is of course to always remain calm - but, alas, with my irritable temparament, that is impossible. So, I do the next best thing.)

:thumbsup: Sage advice indeed.

 

[Tavi...]

It's a pleasure reading your posts. papagena--they're always so thoughtfully composed, cogently argued and carefully worded.

Aww...thank you so much, deetrakt!

 

[chairmanmao]

I thought that 84 PCS Brown received at Worlds was already quite generous. This component scores are a joke.