2015 Worlds Free Dance March 27 | Page 48 | Golden Skate

2015 Worlds Free Dance March 27

sisinka

Medalist
Joined
Nov 25, 2006
Ilinykh & Zhiganshin:

I have problems how to judge this couple.

It is said: “No risk, no gain.“ They went for big risk…and it didn’t pay off too much.

During season there were some minor changes in this FD, but after European Championships team decided to make bigger changes and create more difficult Transitions during whole dance. Why?

While their SD was marked very well since the beginning of the season and suddenly it started to look like Lena & Ruslan are immediately a part of World top teams, FD was criticised by so many people in terms of music/choreo/Transitions. Many people argued that with such choreography there is no possibility to compete with top couples. Even at Press Conference I&Z were asked what are they going to do with that “not very successfull“ FD.

After Cup of Russia many people immediately started to expect top results which for example I&K had problems to achieve skating together for 4 or 5 years. Their skating at Grand Prix Final was criticised because they finished last, their Russian Nationals routines were criticised for not being perfect (not to mention tiredness from not planned GPF two weeks early), their European Championships result was criticised for not getting the medal. Simply the couple started to be judged like every other couple skating together for years, and expectations were the same. Such behaviour is understandable from judges who should judge only what they see on the ice without putting any attention to off ice stories…but such behaviour is not understandable from anybody else…

The situation and expectations became even bigger after win at Russian Nationals. Russian number 1 is always expected to win every competition, if not…than to get medal at least, if not…well, rather don’t think.

Visibly Lena & Ruslan put a lot attention to such talks (in my opinion more than they should) and together with their coaches they started to take bigger and bigger risk in making changements in an attempt to make FD more competive and try to fulfill big expectations.

There is a question whether their coaches should allow to take such risk. Maybe not but maybe they had no other choice. On the other hand there is Russian Fed who always has the last word and if somebody should put a barriers and stop taking too much of risk, it should definitely be Russian Fed. Instead of it we could notice multiple articles about number 1 Stepanova & Bukin, poor result of I&Z at European Championships, no good perspectives at coming World Championships, hard situation of Russian dance, Lena coming back to Nikita because of poor results with Ruslan etc.

What happens if you constantly change choreography in program? Usually you don’t have enough time to get used to new parts, so you must skate all new parts under big control, you must be concentrating all the time to every small move. In the middle of season Lena noticed that they started to feel moments during dance where they can breath more and relax more…this all was killed with changements in programs. Before every element you need some seconds to concentrate and get ready for the element. With all new Transitions Lena & Ruslan lost time to prepare for next element, they had to concentrate on every single move in every second… no break, no time to take a breath. Even couple skating together for years would struggle with adapting to new parts in programs, so what to speak about dancers who skate together for almost 12 months only.

I can’t say that mistakes at European and World Championships were caused by those changements in FD, in case of European Championships I have another opinion, but those changements definitely made execution of all elements and presenting of the dance much more difficult.

Taking into account all circumstances they did maximum to make their FD competive and result was not bad at all.
Not taking circumstances into account, this FD is not presenting the team how it should be done and everybody hopes that next dances will be about 70% better choreographed.

As to mistakes – it was nice to see that Lena was fighting to get maximum from Twizzles, she didn’t put her free leg down and saved at least Level 2. Thanks to extended lift I&Z lost another point which could keep them in front of G&P (the difference in final standings was less than a half point).

After Twizzles all other elements were clean, I can see another small improvement in execution of spin and lifts.

Once again that strange strategy of judges – after poorly executed element they went down with GOE in all next elements. Step Sequences are if not the best then one of best we can see and while top couples gets GOE +2.20 points and P&C even +2.36 points, I&Z’s second Step Sequence got GOE +1.26 points only…for what?
Skating Skills lower then top 6 teams is not showing reality also.
 

4everchan

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 7, 2015
Country
Martinique
I am not an expert at all... not even a skater but I read this with great respect and totally agree with what you wrote... thank you for explaining clearly what I was instinctively feeling... and for me, as a musician, what matters the most and was lacking the most is rhythm... and that was for everyone
Presentation in mind:

Gilles & Poirier:
…thanks to weak technique I have problem to appreciate this couple more, but what I can say for sure – this was a dance, not only program skated by two people…

Monko & Khaliavin:
…the couple creates an opinion of multiple energy, they are very powerful and dynamic in movements (like in technique)…needs to improve body posture and spacing…
…together with Shibs the best Twizzles of the day…

Hubbell & Donohue:
…I am glad that such ice dance program exist, it gives more diversity at such competitions and it helps to remind that there are more dance styles that classical elegant or flirting style…
…unfortunately it is not welcomed by judges…

Hurtado & Diaz:
…great and emotional presentation…
…I take this program not as good like Picasso was, but today’s presentation was better than I ever saw in Picasso…
…for me top 6 in presentation…

Cappellini & Lanotte:
…I was nicely surprised…this time I liked their presentation especially Anna’s a lot…they gave it everything they could and they were dancing…
…looking at their presentation I see a concept – she is The Death and he is a kind Devil who doesn’t know that he will become her victim soon…

Shibutani & Shibutani:
…the second and even bigger surprise of the day – they were expressive and they were very visible on the ice…
…infortunately they are still suffering from choreo not suitable for Waltz, but they did everything what they could (in comparison with the choreographer)…
…the best Twizzles of the day (but please never ever so many Sets)…

Chock & Bates:
…nicely done, but today from all top couples they created mind of being more skaters than dancers…
…great execution of Curved lift…
…in comparison with W&P, P&C and even C&L their choreography was an ordinary thing for me…

Weaver & Poje:
…great program and great presentation…
…overall this time I didn’t have a feeling that I see a piece of art, I had a feeling that I see a great presentation of the dance with concentration on elements more than on some deep emotions…
…I like choreography – I would give the highest SS, CH and TR to this couples…PE and IT great also…great gradation towards the end…

Papadakis & Cizeron:
…while in case of W&P I would use words “great and difficult dance“, in case of P&C I would say a “great dance“…
…perfect emotional gradatation towards the end…

What I would like other couples took from W&P and P&C is a big attention to details – arms, elbow, hand movements (Gabriella would need better ballet preparation for having better finger movements). Other choreographies look a little bit plain or plain a lot as to details, even some top couples from pair cathegory have more intricate details.

What I would like other couples took from W&P are more difficult Transitions with close holds, intricate change of holds.

What I would like all couples change in future is decrease a number or jumps and hoops, decrease time spend with two-footed skating.

Padakis & Cizeron’s win is not very welcomed by me. I know that the question “who else?“ would follow and I would answer W&P because right now they are overall the best dance team.
If you are champion you are supposed to:
…have great technique…
…not be constantly out in the most difficult dance element – Twizzles…
…keep the rhythm…
…have choreography which is not simple (in skating term), not fulfilled with two footed skating, hugging - not skating parts…

Looking at score P&C have all of this, looking at their skating they are missing things mentioned above. I expect they will keep improving and one day they will learn most of this, but this day didn’t come yet.

I have a feeling that even after this season Ice Dance doesn’t have real leader. In past the couple who won World Championships usually had everything perfect or near to it and there was nothing you could advise them to improve. With new judging system it started to change slowly and right now all top couples have still something to improve (W&P), more things or a lot of things to improve (all other couples).
 

Alba

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 26, 2014
Cappellini & Lanotte:
…looking at their presentation I see a concept – she is The Death and he is a kind Devil who doesn’t know that he will become her victim soon…

I think you've seen the wrong concept sisinka. :biggrin:
He is the death, not her, and the death (he) takes her in the end.
 
Last edited:

Alba

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 26, 2014
i see it like you. He seems The Death and she is the victim.

It's not just me and you. ;) First of all it was already written about the idea at the beginning of the season. She had that rose pastel dress and he in black, like here and at Euros. Second, and more importantly it doesn't make sense because the devil, the satan, is supposed to be a supernatural entity and usually fights with God over the human soul. The Devil is a fallen angel, well in christianity and islam at least. Anyway, it was obvious from the choreography as well, and the last pose says it all. BUT I have to say that Anna did overact her part (just like the Paso) which in many cases is used to stress the evil (which might've confused sisinka), and that was something I didn't like at all.
 

4everchan

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 7, 2015
Country
Martinique
funny how i have very little recollection of their dance... i felt the music was too big for them, and for ice dance of today in many ways.... i can see usova zhulin do something wicked on this if we could time travel :) ... i am wondering if it were just not memorable or if i were already tuning out because of the results from the first two teams from the final flight...
It's not just me and you. ;) First of all it was already written about the idea at the beginning of the season. She had that rose pastel dress and he in black, like here and at Euros. Second, and more importantly it doesn't make sense because the devil, the satan, is supposed to be a supernatural entity and usually fights with God over the human soul. The Devil is a fallen angel, well in christianity and islam at least. Anyway, it was obvious from the choreography as well, and the last pose says it all. BUT I have to say that Anna did overact her part (just like the Paso) which in many cases is used to stress the evil (which might've confused sisinka), and that was something I didn't like at all.
 

Caustica

Final Flight
Joined
Feb 9, 2014
:( shibs are the only 5th place finishers not to be invited ...

edit: oops meant to post in gala thread
 
Last edited:

sisinka

Medalist
Joined
Nov 25, 2006
It's not just me and you. ;) First of all it was already written about the idea at the beginning of the season. She had that rose pastel dress and he in black, like here and at Euros. Second, and more importantly it doesn't make sense because the devil, the satan, is supposed to be a supernatural entity and usually fights with God over the human soul. The Devil is a fallen angel, well in christianity and islam at least. Anyway, it was obvious from the choreography as well, and the last pose says it all. BUT I have to say that Anna did overact her part (just like the Paso) which in many cases is used to stress the evil (which might've confused sisinka), and that was something I didn't like at all.

I know the story and I know that some moments in their choreo remind how the concept was planned. I liked the expression (and didn't mind mimics this time) and I liked they gave it everything. But Anna was so big (in terms of exression) and aggresive that she overdanced and totally overshadowed Luca.
If you want to be in role of The Death you must be more visible than your victim. That is why I wrote that concept is different. :)
 

Alba

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 26, 2014
But Anna was so big (in terms of exression) and aggresive that she overdanced and totally overshadowed Luca.

As usual, and I don't like that.

If you want to be in role of The Death you must be more visible than your victim. That is why I wrote that concept is different. :)

Yeah, but she was not playing the role of the death though. That's what I'm saying.

i am wondering if it were just not memorable or if i were already tuning out because of the results from the first two teams from the final flight...

I don't think it was memorable either. Not suited to them maybe and it looked too big, IMO. Luca isn't able to play that part.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Watching on big screen TV last night, and without bothering too much about the scoring, I liked Chock and Bates' dance the best.
 

Barb

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 13, 2009
:( shibs are the only 5th place finishers not to be invited ...

edit: oops meant to post in gala thread

:disapp:. well, I hope they take a rest and had more time to visit Shangai. whoever choose the invited skaters is very lost, usually I skip the galas, but the ex of the Shibs is very special.
 
Last edited:

slider11

Medalist
Joined
Jan 12, 2014
Very strange that the Shibs were not invited to the gala as 5th placed finishers. Who received their spot?
 

icekiwi

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 10, 2007
Watching on big screen TV last night, and without bothering too much about the scoring, I liked Chock and Bates' dance the best.

I agree with you, Mathman. I thought Chock & Bates' dances were the best in both the Paso and the Free.

I am neither Canadian nor American, so I don't hold any 'patriotic' biasness. Just from simply watching the skating and following figure skating for more than 20 years, Chock and Bates are by far my favorites this season. They have so improved from the last couple of years. I noticed a huge difference in their skating right at the start of the season, at Skate America. I was simply blown away by their total 'package' this year - speed and edges across the ice, posture and line, costuming (Maddison has the best Paso dress among the ladies!!), complicated choreography and the best overall presentation. In one straight viewing on Youtube, I decided to watch just the top couples' blades and not look at the upper body movements at all, and contrary to some moderators here, Maddison does have strong lovely edge work - she and Evan does have strong edge quality.

Chock & Bates - their 'Paso' - the best of the evening - great costuming, great characterisation - listen to what the BBC guys, in particular, Nicky slater said about Maddison - that "all female skaters should look at her commitment to the Paso dance". To me, their Paso has the most difficult and complicated choreography of the evening. Skating wise, great edgework in the side by side straightline footwork (this is from purely watching the movement of their blades).

Chock & Bates - Free Dance - light, fresh and joyous - again beautiful costuming (love Maddie's dress - modern and stylish), skated so light and free, no inhibitation or tightness at all. In fact, their free dance has the most difficult lifts!! The music itself has lots of 'shapes' and therefore different dance moves were incorporated which makes this a rather difficult free dance to execute.

Congrats to Chock & Bates - keep up the great work!! Gold is within reach!!!:cheer:
 

Astrid56

Final Flight
Joined
Oct 24, 2014
I agree with you, Mathman. I thought Chock & Bates' dances were the best in both the Paso and the Free.

I am neither Canadian nor American, so I don't hold any 'patriotic' biasness. Just from simply watching the skating and following figure skating for more than 20 years, Chock and Bates are by far my favorites this season. They have so improved from the last couple of years. I noticed a huge difference in their skating right at the start of the season, at Skate America. I was simply blown away by their total 'package' this year - speed and edges across the ice, posture and line, costuming (Maddison has the best Paso dress among the ladies!!), complicated choreography and the best overall presentation. In one straight viewing on Youtube, I decided to watch just the top couples' blades and not look at the upper body movements at all, and contrary to some moderators here, Maddison does have strong lovely edge work - she and Evan does have strong edge quality.

Chock & Bates - their 'Paso' - the best of the evening - great costuming, great characterisation - listen to what the BBC guys, in particular, Nicky slater said about Maddison - that "all female skaters should look at her commitment to the Paso dance". To me, their Paso has the most difficult and complicated choreography of the evening. Skating wise, great edgework in the side by side straightline footwork (this is from purely watching the movement of their blades).

Chock & Bates - Free Dance - light, fresh and joyous - again beautiful costuming (love Maddie's dress - modern and stylish), skated so light and free, no inhibitation or tightness at all. In fact, their free dance has the most difficult lifts!! The music itself has lots of 'shapes' and therefore different dance moves were incorporated which makes this a rather difficult free dance to execute.

Congrats to Chock & Bates - keep up the great work!! Gold is within reach!!!:cheer:

Thank you! I share those very sentiments!
 

peg

Medalist
Joined
Jan 17, 2014
During first season (in this moments Ilinykh & Zhiganshin skate together for almost 12) months the couple:
… won Russian Nationals (I&K never won)…
…got silver medal at Grand Prix (I&K got silver Grand Medal during their 3 senior season)…
…qualified for Grand Prix Final (I&K got into Final after 3 years of trying and only once in during those four years)…
…got personal best for SD over 69 points – 69.94 points at European Championships and 69.46 points at World Championships (I&K got over 70 points just at home Olympics, during their career they achieved highest points in their last fourth season together – 69.54 points at European Championships 2015 and 69.07 points at TEB)…
…at their first appereance at European and World Championships they finished at 4th and 7th place (when I&K finished in such placements during their first senior year everybody called them very promising and next Virtue & Moir…when last season Sinitsina & Zhiganshin finished on exactly the same placement – 4th at their first European and 7th at their first World Championhips – it was just not too bad in meaning of Fed and fans)…

Let’s look at Stepanova & Bukin achievements after skating in seniors for two seasons and skating together since 2006 – for 9 seasons:
…they finished third at Russian Nationals…
…they won Bronze medal at Grand Prix this season…
… they didn’t qualified for Grand Prix Final…
their personal best in SD is 64.95 points (but being objective S&B’s personal best for FD is about 1.02 point higher then I&Z’s personal best for FD)…
…they finished 3th and 9th at their first big events…

And even that is due more to poor choreo of I/Z's FD than anything to do with their skills and abilities. Plus the fact that they made changes so they didn't quite have the mileage on the new version of the program.

It really looks like that I&Z created something incredible during their first season together, and in this comparison it looks like that they are more succesfull team then S&B and looking at how long they skate together probably twice as talented. So if Bestemianova forces such team like I&Z to split because of poor results and speaks that the couple didn’t succeed, then she could also force S&B to split…or no?

By her standard, I/K should have been forced to split years before they did! :laugh2:

Also, there is currently no team in ice dance that has had more success in their first season together. So if I/Z aren't working as a team, then we might as well just cancel ice dancing completely because all the teas are complete failures. :biggrin:

Does this woman really think people are all complete idiots?
 

Ryan O

Final Flight
Joined
Mar 5, 2004
Country
Canada
A crime that Gilles/P's TES were HIGHER than the Shibs. What the ??????

That's incorrect.

G&P have placed very close to the Shibutanis before (including last year at Worlds at this very event) so there is nothing that unusual about the marking.

G&P and The Shibs are close in ability, and these scores reflect that.
 
Top