2016 Cup of China Ladies FS

[ancientpeas]

Ashley Wagner ‏@AshWagner2010 14 minutes ago
On the bright side, I have a lovely garden salad to eat with all of those carrots I got yesterday #laughitoff and #keeppushingforward

Oh Ashley why are you so endearing, can't wait to see you at Nationals

It's good that she can see the humour in it all. I think Ashley has some love of gallows humour.

When they cry and leave I always worry about them. It's really nice that some of them have the outlet of twitter or instagram to let people know that they are okay with it after they have had a chance to process.

 

[topaz emerald]

I would prefer if the judging system would reward good height and distance more, then we wouldn't have this pre-rotation discussion and the audience would understand the sport better. A good jump has a nice spring to it right after the take-off.

this!

 

[largeman]

he second topic Frank discusses in this video is pre-rotation of jumps on take-off. This means, rotating part of a jump before even leaving the ice. One key point Frank makes in this video is, every jump pre-rotates, and the pre-rotation increases with difficulty of the jump. For example, Frank shares that a triple axel will sometimes rotate a half turn on the ice before jumping. Notice that even though Frank knows this, he does not share it with his skaters. He is concerned that by telling his skaters thism, they will tend to rotate too much on the ice and not produce the needed lift.

http://icoachskating.com/jump-principles-speed-and-pre-rotation-frank-carroll/

You might have missed the recent thread where the prerotation issue was discussed at length. What a lot of posters (including myself) believe is that prerotation is perfectly acceptable up to a certain amount. I recognize that no edge jumps ever leave the ice backwards and hardly any ladies' toe jumps do either, and I also cited what Frank Carroll said in the above link.

What a lot of us take issue with is that there's no clear standard or rule set regarding how much prerotation is allowed at takeoff, unlike the clear rule regarding underrotation at landing. This results in the unfair treatment and scoring between the following two jumps, as an example:

A. a triple toeloop where the toe pick leaves the ice at the 180 degree mark of the first revolution (i.e. taking off "forwards"), and touches down on the ice just over 90 degrees short of completing the final revolution. Total revolutions completed in the air is therefore just under 2.25 revolutions.

B. a triple toeloop where the toe pick leaves the ice at the 270 degree mark of the first revolution, and touches down on the ice just short of completely backwards. Total revolutions completed in the air is therefore also just under 2.25 revolutions.

Under the current judging system, A is marked UR and B isn't. Jump A, despite completing the exact same amount of in-air revolutions as Jump B (and employing a more correct takeoff technique), receives a UR penalty on the BV and a GOE reduction.

To many of us, this a major flaw of the current system.

 

[nocturnalis]

Last year Karen has a serious boot issue. It was like they were all a poor fit. She went through 14 pair of boots and the fit issue caused her injury late in the season. (Ironically, she and Polina have the same boot makers and both suffered from boot issues and were injured.)

I think she got a late start this season, which may be why she makes some errors. I'm hoping for Some great skates at nationals.

:shocked: Maybe this boot maker needs to get new job?

 

[skylark]

i was very happy looking at the protocols... it makes me happy when i feel a jump is not rotated and the carrot appears on the protocol... there were many today unfortunately but it seemed fair...

Not I. It's ridiculous when something that needs a slo-mo camera to be sure it's even a mistake, is penalized so severely.

 

[Lzbee]

Don't forget Kaetlyn, who has come closer this season than others, to beating Med in competition.

In that case, you can't leave out Anna either! She got 215+ at Rostelecom, higher than anyone who isn't Evgenia this season.

 

[skylark]

Ashley Wagner ‏@AshWagner2010 14 minutes ago
On the bright side, I have a lovely garden salad to eat with all of those carrots I got yesterday #laughitoff and #keeppushingforward

Oh Ashley why are you so endearing, can't wait to see you at Nationals

It's good that she can see the humour in it all. I think Ashley has some love of gallows humour.

When they cry and leave I always worry about them. It's really nice that some of them have the outlet of twitter or instagram to let people know that they are okay with it after they have had a chance to process.

All so true. And yet, Ashley wasn't born with all this character and humor. She climbed that Mt. Everest all on her own. I mean, can you imagine what it must be like to screw up so spectacularly in front of a whole world of figure skating fans, not to mention judges and all the others who judge.

It's the "keep pushing forward" part that's hard won, I think. Ashley has said it took her a year to get over not making the 2010 Olympic team. Wasn't any easier for her than it is for anyone else.

 

[frida80]

:shocked: Maybe this boot maker needs to get new job?

You'd think. Boot makers rely on famous skaters for reference so they'll try everything to keep you. Remember Mirai's emergency boot fixes at both nationals and worlds?

 

[skylark]

I just looked at the protocols, and I have thoughts.

1. Elena! I was worried about her jumps after the test skate, but she's really pulled it together.
2. I'm so excited that Kaetlyn is (probably) going to the Final! It looks like she finally has the momentum back that she had back in 2013 before all the injuries started popping up. She's a joy to watch and I can't wait to see her in the Final.
3. Elizaveta Tuktamysheva: good for her! sounds like she did really well.
4. Mai Mihara: she kind of bores me, but I like that she's consistent.
5. Rika Hongo: what happened to the super-consistent Rika we had last year? I want that Rika back.
6. Ashley Wagner:...what happened? 6 URs? I kind of thought she was (mostly) over that..:scratch:

Ashley isn't making any excuses for herself. But in TSL interview of Marai Nagasu after last nationals, they asked her about her URs. She said that in practice she trains the jumps relentlessly. But in competitions, she said that when she is a little tired or gets nervous, it's all too easy to revert back to competition habits that she learned before URs were penalized so highly.

In those long-ago days before 2011, Mirai trained with the idea that it was better to land a jump imperfectly than to risk a fall.

I thought that very interesting. The new rules favor skaters who trained their jumping technique, particularly their triple jumps, after 2011. It really helps explain so much of the current phenomena of the 15, 16, 17 and maybe even 18 year old girls. Add that to the fact of it being harder for girls after puberty, and you've got a double or triple-loaded situation.

 

[ancientpeas]

Not I. It's ridiculous when something that needs a slo-mo camera to be sure it's even a mistake, is penalized so severely.

Yes but, and I'm not trying to be argumentative, this is a legitimate question, if it's easier to UR your jumps to get them landed how do we reward those who do not ur? Surely it's unfair to give the same mark (say 8 BV) to a jump that is ur as a jump that is landed cleanly? If a flutz is easier to land than a lutz then if they don't call it the person doing the flutz is getting the same mark for doing an easier jump. Sort of like giving the same mark for a triple toe as for a triple flip?

I'm all for calling both UR and edges as long as it's done fairly. I think if there is room for doubt though it should be given to the skater. Innocent until proven guilty.

Just my opinion.

 

[Osmond4gold]

Officials using instant reply is the norm in most sports today. Take baseball as an example, if a team request a replay, the call goes to a technical panel in NYC in real time. There has to be sufficient evidence to overturn, and if not enough evidence or the play is still unclear, the original call on the field stands. No team wants to lose a major pennant, because of a questionable umpire call. IMO it has improved the sport for the better, same with hockey.

I think there has to be a sense of fairness in skating that shows the jumps were executed to a technical degree of proficiency, and by doing so skaters get awarded accordingly.

 

[Lipea]

Watched top ladies finally and cannot understand the scoring :sarcasm:

Elena - every jump was shakily landed, how could she get positive GOEs on them? 0 or -1 would be fair there. The PCS are ridiculous - remembering her in Boston, she was clearly the weakest skating skills-wise. Good programs and glad she is on her usual level despite the body gain, but her total should not be over 200 by any means.
Kaetlyn - yes, she is a nice skater, but clearly overscored as well. Two falls, and the components like if she had reputation of a world top skater. C'mon, she should deserve them first with clean performances just like other skaters do, - indeed, the girl was never known for a clean LP

Liza - unlike Elena and Kaetlyn was scored fairly. Otherwise, she should have been second at least. Except that doubled lutz everything was just as good as in her golden season - I don't get why on the earth former WC gets such low marks. In 2014-2015 out of the main starts she performed her 3A only at Worlds, in other competitions she had the same jump layot. And her jumps looked as good as ever - great technique, flow, edges, rotation, how on Earth can she get same GOEs for them as Radionova??? Zero objectivity. Yes her transitions and choreo are not the best, but her SS clearly better than Lena's, and the LP was performed and interpreted greatly, better than Kaetlyn's. How on earth there is such difference in PCS?
She could be in the final if only was scored fairly relatively to others.

Pity for Ashley. Underotations are judged too harsh in today's system. Either decrease in base value or minus on GOEs, but not both. If one jumps clean double he/she gets full credit for it and GOEs, therefore, triple with UR should be treated as 2.5 jump, but receive full GOE it deserves.
Pity for Mai too - I really like her, and she is very strong.

 

[sowcow]

So do the rules instruct judges to mark pre-rotations with, I guess, a >? You write that some ladies have ALMOST no pre-rotation? So they still are pre-rotating. Seemingly it is so prevalent, as Carroll suggest, that there is really little point in judging them.

You might have missed the recent thread where the prerotation issue was discussed at length. What a lot of posters (including myself) believe is that prerotation is perfectly acceptable up to a certain amount. I recognize that no edge jumps ever leave the ice backwards and hardly any ladies' toe jumps do either, and I also cited what Frank Carroll said in the above link.

What a lot of us take issue with is that there's no clear standard or rule set regarding how much prerotation is allowed at takeoff, unlike the clear rule regarding underrotation at landing.

...

To many of us, this a major flaw of the current system.

In fact, the Tech Panel does have a clear rule regarding pre-rotation of jumps, which includes the specific penalty to be applied to the offending jump element:

Cheated take-off

• A clear forward (backward for Axel type jump) take-off will be considered as a downgraded jump. The toe loop is the most commonly cheated on take-off jump. The TP may only watch the replay in regular speed to determine the cheat and downgrade on the take off (more often in combinations or sequences).

Source: Technical Panel Handbook — Single Skating — 2016/2017 (version as of 24.07.2016) — see pg 15 of 19.
Link: http://static.isu.org/media/1001/tphb-singles-2016-2017.pdf
​

► Interestingly, while the Technical Panel Handbook says that a jump with cheated take-off should be downgraded, it does not assign a unique symbol to be able to differentiate a "cheated take-off" downgrade versus a jump "missing rotation of ½ revolutions or more".

► So, it would seem that both types of downgrade are indicated by the same "<<" notation.

► This means that many of the GS debates regarding controversial "<<" calls — which tend to almost exclusively be discussed/argued in terms of whether the jump was "missing rotation of ½ revolutions or more" — may have focused on entirely the wrong reason for the downgrade!! In some cases, perhaps the reason was due to a "cheated take-off" assessment by the Tech Panel; which is made all the more difficult since the Tech Panel "may only watch the replay in regular speed" to assess pre-rotation penalties!!

 

[Lipea]

Ashley in 6th, so no American lady in the GPF while Canadian Kaetlyn is in.

Liza is gaining her confidence for sure. I hope to see her bring her 3A.

Why don't they give Mariah a second assignment? The girl has a silver already, even 4th could be enough to bring her into final. Makes no sense at all.

 

[Lipea]

GB is fired! I might have to go and deflate him.

So.. no Ashley in the GPF? That's shocking. I might have picked her to win here.

First time Ashley is not in GPF for 5 years? :shocked:

 

[Lipea]

Huge Congratulations to Elena!!!! yahoo::hap57::hap85::hap85: That's a Champion for being a fighter!!!

She always fights. I personally tired to wait when she would finally stop fighting and start skating...

 

[Lipea]

thats what we call 'russian women' here:yes2:
never give up & get things done!

& Papa Mishin is even better reverse jinxer than me!!:rofl2::agree:
congrats my Queen Liza!!!!


& sorry but Daleman >>>>>>>> Osmond

Sad about Ash (((((

100% agree
If federation preferences would be different with the same performances it could be likely 1. Liza, 2. Mai, 3. Elena

 

[ancientpeas]

This is useful information. So this means sometimes when we think it might be a UR it actually a PR? hmm...

 

[shiroKJ]

Why don't they give Mariah a second assignment? The girl has a silver already, even 4th could be enough to bring her into final. Makes no sense at all.

USFSA can't just assign skaters to other GP's because they did well in one event, its not like Jr.GP. Mariah wasn't on the original roster and was a last minute substitute for SA because someone withdrew due to injury. Other GP assignments are solely up to the host federation and they are not obligated to fill last minute withdrawals (if there is one).

It was basically impossible for her to make the GPF regardless of how well she does at SA.

 

[Crossover]

Why don't they give Mariah a second assignment? The girl has a silver already, even 4th could be enough to bring her into final. Makes no sense at all.

I'm not sure to whom you're referring for "they", and I can't answer the question because I'm not an organizer of any GP event with the power to invite skaters whom I want to see. However, Mariah wasn't initially assigned to any GP event because of her low standing at Nationals as well as her track record in the previous seasons. She was lucky enough to compete at Skate America as the substitute of Angela Wang. It was great for Mariah to grab an opportunity to shine through in front of the home crowd, but there is also no guaranteed for her to place in above 4th even if she has another chance because of her inconsistency. She is not the only one in the case this season. Kevin Reynolds wasn't invited after winning a bronze at Skate Canada. I hope this may be sufficient for your question.