2016 US Intl FS Classic Mens FP

[HanDomi]

Well, it was [borderline] under-rotated in that video, not to mention pre-rotated as well. So it "looks" nice but, well...needs much work.

it's nowhere near as prerotated as Shoma's quads

 

[Tavi...]

If I recall we've had several threads discussing pre-rotation. What I took from them is that some degree of pre rotation - say up to 180 degrees - is considered normal or within the "acceptable" range for most toe jumps, but 360 degrees is too much; also, that judges aren't allowed to review takeoff for prerotation. Is that about right?

 

[HanDomi]

If I recall we've had several threads discussing pre-rotation. What I took from them is that some degree of pre rotation - say up to 180 degrees - is considered normal or within the "acceptable" range for most toe jumps, but 360 degrees is too much; also, that judges aren't allowed to review takeoff for prerotation. Is that about right?

The question that I would ask is why judges can't review pre rotation. Seriously some jumps shouldn't then be even counted as a quad or triple

 

[Mrs. P]

https://www.facebook.com/shirley.worthen/posts/10210023230758691?notif_t=like¬if_id=1474094571305220 Here's the video

So as an aside, I chuckle ( sorry, it is a lovely skate, but can't help myself) seeing Jason do those leg extensions with other people around cause I feel like he could take them out with them.

Now that's a way to kill in the choreo, ha.

We'll see where the quad is in five weeks. Regardless, He's had a solid start to the season. He's only scored 170+ in the FS once previously and he's already done so two comps in a row.

ETA: It seems he is taking seriously staying healthy. He seems to generally limit his quad attempts, both in practice and warm-up, relative to the other men competitors, even in the US.

 

[Tavi...]

The question that I would ask is why judges can't review pre rotation. Seriously some jumps shouldn't then be even counted as a quad or triple

Can't answer that. Really my only reason for bringing it up was that while fans can debate whether or not a skater pre rotates excessively, unlike <, it's not something the judges currently call - so why was it even mentioned in the context of how much work Jason's quad still needs?

 

[Mrs. P]

Can't answer that. Really my only reason for bringing it up was that while fans can debate whether or not a skater pre rotates excessively, unlike <, it's not something the judges currently call - so why was it even mentioned in the context of how much work Jason's quad still needs?

http://static.isu.org/media/1001/tphb-singles-2016-2017.pdf

There is a provision to deem a jump downgraded based on a "cheated takeoff" but it sounds like it had to be pretty exgregious -- clearly forward. And the judge can check for this, just not in slow mo.

There's also language that states the judge must keep the camera angle in mind when reviewing jumps for rotation and to give "benefit to the skater" if there is any doubt.

 

[Tavi...]

http://static.isu.org/media/1001/tphb-singles-2016-2017.pdf

There is a provision to deem a jump downgraded based on a "cheated takeoff" but it sounds like it had to be pretty exgregious -- clearly forward. And the judge can check for this, just not in slow mo.

There's also language that states the judge must keep the camera angle in mind when reviewing jumps for rotation and to give "benefit to the skater" if there is any doubt.

Thanks Mrs P! Appreciate the information.

 

[el henry]

The only reason I'm replying is because I have attended this event all week, including 2 day of practice prior to the event start Thursday. I don't want to get involved in any controversy and, for the record, I am a quad hater. For met, a lover of the artistic side of skating, it really detracts from my experience as a fan. And prior to this week, I would not have hesitated at this post or even thought of replying. As far as I'm concerned, Jason Brown should be left to do what he does best and just let me sit back and enjoy watching it! Ok, back to reality. Until this week, I questioned whether Jason could do a quad. But then there's the old adage "seeing is believing". And I have watched, and caught on video, Jason doing not just a mediocre quad...not a shaky quad; but Jason doing a BEAUTIFUL QUAD....actually about 3 times, at least, including the SP run through. By the way, on the SP run through at practice....it was nearly flawless. ABSOLUTELY, ELEGANTLY, BEAUTIFUL! I only just got the video of it uploaded to Youtube, at first I only knew how to post it on Facebook. On Facebook it has around 12,000 views and so many comments from all around the world about the excellence of the performance. And, to use someone else's phrase....he again left a very nice quad on the warm-up ice before the FS. So Jason can do quads and he can do them very nicely. Yes, I then sat and watched the 2 performances and watched him do the same thing on both of the quads. I cringed, I screamed inside....and I can't account for it. Because now I know he can do them. Who knows? Psychology and pressure....beyond me.

Thank you Shirfire not only for the links, but the first hand reports from someone in the rink. It helps a lot to hear the descriptions from you and @AHBlack, those who were there

 

[Violet Bliss]

The only reason I'm replying is because I have attended this event all week, including 2 day of practice prior to the event start Thursday. I don't want to get involved in any controversy and, for the record, I am a quad hater. For met, a lover of the artistic side of skating, it really detracts from my experience as a fan. And prior to this week, I would not have hesitated at this post or even thought of replying. As far as I'm concerned, Jason Brown should be left to do what he does best and just let me sit back and enjoy watching it! Ok, back to reality. Until this week, I questioned whether Jason could do a quad. But then there's the old adage "seeing is believing". And I have watched, and caught on video, Jason doing not just a mediocre quad...not a shaky quad; but Jason doing a BEAUTIFUL QUAD....actually about 3 times, at least, including the SP run through. By the way, on the SP run through at practice....it was nearly flawless. ABSOLUTELY, ELEGANTLY, BEAUTIFUL! I only just got the video of it uploaded to Youtube, at first I only knew how to post it on Facebook. On Facebook it has around 12,000 views and so many comments from all around the world about the excellence of the performance. And, to use someone else's phrase....he again left a very nice quad on the warm-up ice before the FS. So Jason can do quads and he can do them very nicely. Yes, I then sat and watched the 2 performances and watched him do the same thing on both of the quads. I cringed, I screamed inside....and I can't account for it. Because now I know he can do them. Who knows? Psychology and pressure....beyond me.

Doing a quad in a program is very different from doing a quad on its own. And doing a quad at a competition is entirely different again from doing it in practice, something many a great skaters never master, e.g. Jeremy Abbott. Some do get over the initial challenge to go on to regularly successful quads and programs and to the podium. Jason is a steadily improving type so I believe he will get there.

 

[skylark]

..
But I have to ask you. Adam has been "attempting" this quad Lutz for at least two and a half years, if not more, and he's never gotten any closer to landing it. At what point do you acknowledge that the failed jump is planned?

Countless elite athletes, from track runners to football and hockey players, to Olympic athletes of all kinds, say that the mental aspect of competition is more important ... some say far more important ... than anything else. That the essential thing is believing that they can do it. It's the mental game.

So, I can't imagine that any elite figure skater would go into a competition planning to fail on a key element. It doesn't make sense. They'd be sabotaging themselves from the brain, on down. No, I don't believe it.

.... quad Lutz for at least two and a half years, if not more, and he's never gotten any closer to landing it.

I saw Adam land a quad lutz at Skate America in 2013. In the SP, it was underrotated and neg. GoE, but there was no fall. In the FS, UR and a fall. Now, in the past six months, he landed one at Worlds and one at SLC challenger. Both UR but landed.

But it seems that in the face of evidence to the contrary, you're still saying that Adam hasn't landed it, and you're still claiming that he plans to fail. That defies logic to me.

But it does explain why people on GS don't bother to answer your false statements or call you out on claiming to read Adam's mind.

 

[4everchan]

there are a lot of semantics issues here with quads

Ratified : quad that was rotated and landed
Landed : skater stays on his feet... however, if could be under-rotated, even downgraded... Mind you, this happens with triples as well!!!
Rotated : skater is credited for the full rotation of the quad. However, skater can still rotate fully the jump and fall on it.



So Adam has a few landed quad lutz attempts but none of those ones were ratified as fully rotated

PS : I do not pretend that those terms are official but I have noticed them commonly used in GS competition threads so I thought I'd give GS definitions as many users have been using 'landed" even if the jump later on gets downgraded. I just thought making the difference between a ratified jump versus a landed one would matter here.

 

[karne]

I saw Adam land a quad lutz at Skate America in 2013. In the SP, it was underrotated and neg. GoE, but there was no fall. In the FS, UR and a fall. Now, in the past six months, he landed one at Worlds and one at SLC challenger. Both UR but landed.

But it seems that in the face of evidence to the contrary, you're still saying that Adam hasn't landed it, and you're still claiming that he plans to fail. That defies logic to me.

But it does explain why people on GS don't bother to answer your false statements or call you out on claiming to read Adam's mind.

Land = one foot and rotated. Not "oooh quick let me do a massive hook turn so that I can try and fool people into thinking it was around when it was nowhere near!".

Adam has "stood up" on quad Lutz attempts. He's never landed it. He's never even been close to rotating it. He plans the failed jump.

He was the one who rolled his eyes at the cameras because someone "without a quad" beat him in 2015, yet he doesn't have one himself (but when HE'S the one that wins Nationals, that's all fine!).

 

[skylark]

Land = one foot and rotated. Not "oooh quick let me do a massive hook turn so that I can try and fool people into thinking it was around when it was nowhere near!".

Well, I'll refer you to the post just ahead of yours by 4everchan, clarifying the differences between "landed," "ratified," and "rotated."

Adam has "stood up" on quad Lutz attempts. He's never landed it. He's never even been close to rotating it. He plans the failed jump.

He was the one who rolled his eyes at the cameras because someone "without a quad" beat him in 2015, yet he doesn't have one himself (but when HE'S the one that wins Nationals, that's all fine!).

Did Adam say somewhere that that's what he was thinking? Or is that you reading his mind again?

Actually I ask this in humility, because there have been times when I thought I knew what someone was thinking by reading their facial expression, and it turned out that wasn't their thought process at all. We all do interpret facial expressions, but we're not always perfectly right in our interpretations.

 

[MaxSwagg]

Adam doens't have a quad. Why do he fans feel that is such a controversial thing to say?

 

[StitchMonkey]

So, I can't imagine that any elite figure skater would go into a competition planning to fail on a key element. It doesn't make sense. They'd be sabotaging themselves from the brain, on down. No, I don't believe it.

Others can help more but I honestly believe that Jeffrey Buttle has gone record his attempts were planned falls.

As for sabotaging themselves.... why? If the fall is expected how is that messing with them mentally? They are completing what they expected to do.

And if you can get the rotation consistently... then it is worth it point wise to include a planned fall. This weekend Jason Brown earned 5.3 points for his fully rotated but landed on engine 4T. His 2A in the second half earned him 4.23 points. Last week it earned him 3.93. So mathematically it does make sense to included a planned fall over a second 2A.

To be clear, I don't think Jason is doing it as a planned fall... for one he is not that consistent on it, for another I think he can land it and is doing it for practice. But the math still is rewarding him in the free for it if he can at least rotate it - so i thought i would use it as an example.

I think the mental discipline these skaters have to get to this level is such that learning to deal with an expected fall is well within their abilities.

 

[skylark]

Others can help more but I honestly believe that Jeffrey Buttle has gone record his attempts were planned falls.

As for sabotaging themselves.... why? If the fall is expected how is that messing with them mentally? They are completing what they expected to do.

And if you can get the rotation consistently... then it is worth it point wise to include a planned fall. This weekend Jason Brown earned 5.3 points for his fully rotated but landed on engine 4T. His 2A in the second half earned him 4.23 points. Last week it earned him 3.93. So mathematically it does make sense to included a planned fall over a second 2A.

To be clear, I don't think Jason is doing it as a planned fall... for one he is not that consistent on it, for another I think he can land it and is doing it for practice. But the math still is rewarding him in the free for it if he can at least rotate it - so i thought i would use it as an example.

I think the mental discipline these skaters have to get to this level is such that learning to deal with an expected fall is well within their abilities.

for this clarification, Stitch. I didn't know that Jeff had gone on record with that. What I had heard was Scott Hamilton saying, more than once, that because the penalties for underrotation are now so severe, it's almost better (I think he said "almost") to make sure that you fully rotate the jump even if it means that you fall. That's somewhat different IMO from planning to fall.

I don't expect everyone to agree (and I imagine someone will say "this has already been done to death"); but I think it's a damn shame and is a key reason figure skating has been shedding fans at such an alarming rate over recent years. Say Skater A loses 3 points for a UR that's only visible through slow motion camera, or only visible to FS wonks who are watching for URs with a critical eagle eye. Skater B loses the same 3 points for a fall, in the same competition.

Which fans will fall through the cracks? The ones who watch skating for enjoyment, beauty, and the emotional expression and transfer that a good figure skater can give them. That description includes many of us true figure skating fanatics, but it's bound to include many, many more casual fans who want to watch sport, beauty and art all in one package. There's very little beauty or artistry in a fall.

As for sabotaging themselves.... why? If the fall is expected how is that messing with them mentally? They are completing what they expected to do

It could come down to what motivates a skater. Is the primary motive (aside from the love of figure skating itself, which the following have all declared) the love of competing (Evan L.), or because they want more than anything to win the Olympics (Tara L.), or because they want to be an artist (Oksana Baiul), or because, as I heard Michelle Kwan say once, "I want to be a legend." Is their primary motive to skate a program that the audience will enjoy (Javier). Is it to make the audience happy, to bring joy (Scott Hamilton). Or is it to "bring good skating" (Ekaterina Gordeeva).

(I know that doesn't follow exactly my thoughts about belief being a key ingredient to an athlete. It may not be a straight line, but to me it's all part of the whole.)

I could go on. But for skaters with some of those above quoted primary motives, then anything that messes with the quality of the performance is not going to be a positive outcome. And falls mess with the quality of the performance, big-time, and with the enjoyment of the audience. You hear audiences groan every time a skater falls because they want to enjoy the performance, and they want the best for the skater.

To me personally, it seems rather cynical for a skater to calculate all this coldly and decide to go for a planned fall if that's how they get the most points. That's another loss, to the skater and audience. And that kind of "outcome" thinking is a direct result of a scoring system that penalizes a nearly invisible underrotation nearly as much as it penalizes a fall. Or, as you pointed out with your example, when you do the numbers it means that with a planned fall, certain jumps can be included and voila, more points.

Rant over. In my defense, the moderators and others do say "post long and post often."

 

[4everchan]

^^ I think a bonus score (let's say + 3 or even + 5 points) should be added to clean performances, (no UR downgrades, no edge calls and no falls), rewarding a skater who executes what is planned.

Perhaps it would mean that some quad monsters have to remove one or two big jumps in order to be safer, but it could promote clean skates again.

I think that the system is a bit broken though every year or so, the ISU is tweaking it which is punishing falls more and more..


Finally, regarding Jeff Buttle, I don't recall him saying this himself about planning a fall... I think commentators are the ones who brought that concept. (he may have said it himself, i never heard it from him though)

Funny note, he won his world title the year that he didn't have any quads in his programs... he went for extreme quality and got it... and guess what : he got belittled for it... by a certain Joubert...

 

[MaxSwagg]

^^ I think a bonus score (let's say + 3 or even + 5 points) should be added to clean performances, (no UR downgrades, no edge calls and no falls), rewarding a skater who executes what is planned.

Perhaps it would mean that some quad monsters have to remove one or two big jumps in order to be safer, but it could promote clean skates again.

I think that the system is a bit broken though every year or so, the ISU is tweaking it which is punishing falls more and more..


Finally, regarding Jeff Buttle, I don't recall him saying this himself about planning a fall... I think commentators are the ones who brought that concept. (he may have said it himself, i never heard it from him though)

Funny note, he won his world title the year that he didn't have any quads in his programs... he went for extreme quality and got it... and guess what : he got belittled for it... by a certain Joubert...

The system is convoluted enough and I"m not fond of rewarding something (skating "clean" with no calls of any kind) that should be expected. Deductions just need to be harsher and more strictly enforced.

 

[4everchan]

The system is convoluted enough and I"m not fond of rewarding something (skating "clean" with no calls of any kind) that should be expected. Deductions just need to be harsher and more strictly enforced.

but they are not.

 

[MaxSwagg]

but they are not.

Unfortunately.