2017-18 State of U.S. Men's Figure Skating

[Mrs. P]

Okay, cause I like to play it on different sides.

I can understand why people felt Vincent had positive momentum. He did win the silver medal beating a number of vets including Max and Jason (who both weren't at 100 percent really, but still). And then he won Jr. Worlds with what I think is a record Jr. Men score (or if it isn't, it's still pretty dang close). Then he basically dazzled in the SP at Skate Detroit with a 4Z and 4F in like June.

I just don't believe in "locks" in general since you never know what things can happen, but I can understand why people felt it was reasonable to bet on Vincent.

 

[evasorange]

My main problem with this concept: Vincent doesn't rotate. We know he doesn't rotate. He's been called out for not rotating. He should be saying his prayers and thanking every lucky star there ever was that he did not skate in Canada because of the rotation issues.

A US Nationals panel is not gonna call him out on it.

The skaters who can rotate will be punished as the ones who can't are given a leniency they don't deserve.

Hey I'm an Ashley Wagner super fan, I know all about the unfairness of judges and their selective under rotation calls I agree that a us nationals panel will most likely go easy on Vincent, and probably most of the other guys as well. I just hope they don't fall into the quads=success train. IMO that's the only way Vincent gets on the Olympic team at this point by landing successful quads. He didn't make the splash any of us were really expecting him to. All the other contenders got at least one gp medal (possibly two for Nathan and Adam). Honestly at the end of the day it's gonna be heartbreaking no matter what but I just really hope at nationals all these guys skate their absolute best and the judging is fair and accurate.

 

[evasorange]

It's too bad Ross and Grant had such shaky debuts, it's like they've dropped off the Map and they're former World Team members.

I know right! I especially have a soft spot for Grant. At this point I think their best bet is to skate well at nationals and get sent to 4cc.

 

[zanadude]

I don't think that "they will give Vincent a spot." But he might earn one by out-pointing everyone else at Nationals.

Technically, that alone wouldn't "earn it". US Nationals champ doesn't get an automatic birth.

 

[Mrs. P]

Technically, that alone wouldn't "earn it". US Nationals champ doesn't get an automatic birth.

I don't feel that other than Nathan, though there would be a body-of-work argument for anyone if Vincent dazzles and places in the top 3 and others place 4th or something.

 

[sheetz]

I still think Vincent has what it takes to make the Olympic team. He just needs to be realistic and do what he can do now and not try to cram 2 years worth of development into 6 months. It's most important for him to prove that he can skate 2 clean programs. If he just does 1 quad in the SP and 3 in the FS along with better spins, choreography, and presentation I feel he shouldhave a good chance of getting on the team.

 

[Mrs. P]

I still think Vincent has what it takes to make the Olympic team. He just needs to be realistic and do what he can do now and not try to cram 2 years worth of development into 6 months. It's most important for him to prove that he can skate 2 clean programs. If he just does 1 quad in the SP and 3 in the FS along with better spins, choreography, and presentation I feel he shouldhave a good chance of getting on the team.

I do feel like Vincent, even prior to this season, has been a "fast development" type of skater. He's very driven and ambitious.

I remember in the 2015-2016 season, he basically put in the 4S and the 3A both that season. He had UR-ed the 4S at both his JGPs, but still went ahead and added the 3A at sectionals (which he didn't even have to compete in because he had a bye for qualifying for JGPF.) He had jump issues at U.S. nationals and placed 8th, which is I think a lower placement than he wanted.

Last season he put in the 4Z even though he still didn't had a ratified 4S internationally. Everything truly came together at junior worlds. So Vincent's strategy works, as we saw with the end of last season. But the longtail, work on things while other stuff (i.e. quads) comes along strategy that Jason has adopted also works (although it means accepting hiccups along the way).

I really don't see Vincent cutting back on his quad attempts. He seems determined to make his mark in a big way.

 

[sheetz]

I do feel like Vincent, even prior to this season, has been a "fast development" type of skater. He's very driven and ambitious.

I remember in the 2015-2016 season, he basically put in the 4S and the 3A both that season. He had UR-ed the 4S at both his JGPs, but still went ahead and added the 3A at sectionals (which he didn't even have to compete in because he had a bye for qualifying for JGPF.) He had jump issues at U.S. nationals and placed 8th, which is I think a lower placement than he wanted.

Last season he put in the 4Z even though he still didn't had a ratified 4S internationally. Everything truly came together at junior worlds. So Vincent's strategy works, as we saw with the end of last season. But the longtail, work on things while other stuff (i.e. quads) comes along strategy that Jason has adopted also works (although it means accepting hiccups along the way).

I really don't see Vincent cutting back on his quad attempts. He seems determined to make his mark in a big way.

I don't think there's anything wrong with what he's doing as a long term strategy. Tracy Wilson said something to that effect in her commentary of his FS. I just think that if he wants to make the Olympic team this year he may have to cut back.

 

[Mrs. P]

I don't think there's anything wrong with what he's doing as a long term strategy. Tracy Wilson said something to that effect in her commentary of his FS. I just think that if he wants to make the Olympic team this year he may have to cut back.

I'm just wondering whether he will, however. I agree it's logical to cut back in the short-term to allow for some key goals, but based on his past approach, I don't see that happening. Of course, I'm would be glad to be wrong, cause generally, I think there are opportunities to boost his score that doesn't require attempting 4-5 quads in a FS.

OTOH..maybe those 4 quads will come together at U.S. Nationals. As I said several times -- things are clear as mud!

 

[el henry]

Alexei probably is not a U.S. citizen, so wouldn't be able to go to the Olympics regardless of how he places.

Duh, I knew that:

He spoke with Ted Barton after his second JGP win and said that he was proceeding apace on citizenship, IIRC. He certainly has the English language skills down now:agree:

 

[GGFan]

I know the Olympics are a huge deal but this Vincent v Max long-term discussion just stinks of crabs in a barrel. Both skaters could use tons of work interpreting music better. Why are fans of both skaters trying to prove who is better?

For all of Max's years competing he's shown only slight improvements in presentation and his jumps have never moved past the level of that first Nationals. Vincent is clearly a first year senior. His skating still leaves a lot to be desired. What I'm failing to understand are the political tactics in this discussion over a third spot. It appears that every time Vincent competes every single movement he makes has to be dissected, criticized, and highlighted for the sole purpose of showing he doesn't deserve an Olympic spot. Really? He's got a lot of work to and he may not have the time to finish it before Nationals, but why do we need to anti-Vincent messaging operation?

It seems over the top. The international judges don't love either skater for obvious reasons. You would think that this would instill humility in both fan bases but instead it seems like it intensifies the fight. Sorry but if Adam and Jason get their stuff together for Nationals neither Max nor Vincent will be skating in Korea. Good luck to all of the skaters!

 

[Ginask8s]

Who is his team and why are they giving him a new program and all those quads to do? ( He was doing Romeo and Juliet and now he is doing Moulin Rouge?) The erosion of confidence was so evident in France. He is such a talent. I hope someone gets it right before he misses this window of opportunity. I am a big fan .

 

[mrrice]

You know really the only place I read or see hype about Vincent being the second coming of whomever is here! I think some posters have talked him up to the point that it's become a fact that he's awesome. He can jump.....but they're sloppy. His moves in the field or whatever you want to call them are juvenile at best. He has no personality on the ice. He has always had a lot of talent and my personal opinion is that it isn't being tapped. I would like to see him with a different coach and a good choreographer. He clearly needs some direction if he's to advance in the sport. It was almost embarassing today.

Max was sloppy on his SP and LP. He made little mistakes - as Mrs. P pointed out - and they do add up. I do think he skated better than Vince, however, and that comes down to the ridiculous rule of getting points for attempting quads....no matter how ugly they turn out. I do think there should be a bigger penalty for falls. That would take some of the inconsistency out of the judging. You fall.....you don't get points. (whoa - the outcome of this competition would have been significantly different - interesting thought) But quite frankly if you were just judging on this competition - neither one of them did very well. I expected at least a 4th place from Max.

And it was wonderful to see Misha Ge get a medal without a quad. Shows that there still is value in beautiful skating.

I saw Vincent as the "Future" when he won Junior Worlds last year. However, I certainly didn't, and don't see him on the Olympic or World Team this year. It took a rare occasion for Max Arron to skate 2 bad programs at Nationals last year for him to make the podium. As we just saw, if Max is anywhere close to his real self, he stays ahead of Vincent. I still have a lot of faith in Vincent and even if he doesn't make the team this year, I see a National and possible World Championship in his future. IMO, his future will depend on Nathan Chen. If Nathan stays healthy and active until 2022, I think Vincent has a long road ahead of him. Of course, he will still make the teams and that will be a big deal. Maybe Nathan and Vincent will become the Evan and Johnny this Era.

 

[noskates]

Good discussion. I disagree, however, that Vincent's strategy is a good one. Maybe I'm old school but I really believe you don't go from 0 to 60 in 7 seconds. I believe that before you try all these jumps you should make sure the first ones are consistent - and not just on the practice ice. I don't know Vincent but I can only imagine what a performance like this weekend does to your self-confidence. Why send a youngster out on the ice to lay down a mediocre skate to build for the future? Why not proceed more slowly and let him develop the other facets of his skating commensurate with his technical abilities - like style and poise and good posture, etc. Why take the chance on him getting hurt again -something that has plagued his career for quite awhile now.

I think he does have a good future ahead of him but if he's to beat a clean Nathan, jumps alone are not going to do it. Nathan's presentation if getting better all the time and he has the jumps. I think Vincent does have a long road ahead of him - still would like to see him with someone other than Tammy G.

 

[mrrice]

Good discussion. I disagree, however, that Vincent's strategy is a good one. Maybe I'm old school but I really believe you don't go from 0 to 60 in 7 seconds. I believe that before you try all these jumps you should make sure the first ones are consistent - and not just on the practice ice. I don't know Vincent but I can only imagine what a performance like this weekend does to your self-confidence. Why send a youngster out on the ice to lay down a mediocre skate to build for the future? Why not proceed more slowly and let him develop the other facets of his skating commensurate with his technical abilities - like style and poise and good posture, etc. Why take the chance on him getting hurt again -something that has plagued his career for quite awhile now.

I think he does have a good future ahead of him but if he's to beat a clean Nathan, jumps alone are not going to do it. Nathan's presentation if getting better all the time and he has the jumps. I think Vincent does have a long road ahead of him - still would like to see him with someone other than Tammy G.

I agree 100%. I don't see it as motivating to go out with an overloaded, injury inducing LP only to finish out of the final flight. All skaters should use Misha's medal as a motivating factor in how they plan their programs. Vincent has one of the best examples of how to win an event without 3 or more quads in Jason Brown. The other thing about Nathan that can't be over looked is the fact that he has better programs than Vincent and several other skaters. Even a perfect Vincent would be no match against a perfect Nathan, especially in the SP.

 

[mrrice]

I'm sure he will, but he hasn't lived in the U.S. long enough to apply for citizenship. IIRC, he came to the US around 2014, so it would have only been three years -- generally you have to be in the US for at least five years.

I had no idea he had been here for such a short time. I had always thought he came here right after he was born. He's from St Petersburg, Right? Did he compete for Russia as a novice?

 

[Mrs. P]

I had no idea he had been here for such a short time. I had always thought he came here right after he was born. He's from St Petersburg, Right? Did he compete for Russia as a novice?

He was actually one of Mishin's students and yes he did compete in the lower Russian levels.

 

[Mrs. P]

Vincent posted a two-page handwritten note on Instagram regarding his experience at IdF:
https://www.instagram.com/p/Bbp9bLBlm9P/?hl=en&taken-by=govincentzhou

I think self-reflection is always good, but am curious about what compelled him to share it publicly.

This bit especially raised my eyebrows a bit:
"There are those who love me, adore me, see me as a threat, annoyance, or a source of entertainment and there are those who rather I would quit skating. I am sorry to those whose respect I failed to earn, those whose expectations I did not meet, and those who standards I did not satisfy."

I hope he's not reading forums. Or paying attention to the noise. Cause honestly, regardless of my thoughts on his approach, it's up to him and he doesn't need to respond to anybody.

 

[Jaana]

I hope they don't give Vincent a spot and leave Max off the team. He was not at his best in France and he still beat Vincent.

Would it really matter whether one is 7th or 9th out of 11 guys? Both were bad placements and neither of them made the GPF. Maybe all US top guys will be ready at the US Nationals and will really show there what they can do (or in worst case what they can´t do)....?

 

[mrrice]

Would it really matter whether one is 7th or 9th out of 11 guys? Both were bad placements and neither of them made the GPF. Maybe all US top guys will be ready at the US Nationals and will really show there what they can do (or in worst case what they can´t do)....?

Actually NO, it wouldn't matter. After the way they skated in France, I could see them BOTH missing the team for Nathan, Adam, and Jason. However, if it came down to choosing between Max and Vincent....You have to go with Max.