2017 Japan Open

[OS]

So tell me which of these countries you think are biased towards Russian skaters. Because that was my point. For most European countries it just doesn't make sense at all to prefer Russian skaters over other skaters because of nationality or for cultural reasons.

More like possible bias in support European Champions which currently include Russians, which is the only possible explanation I have on Kostner's and Russia' number 1's PCS at worlds these past few years. AS WELL as inexplicable low PCS for any other none European's who does not do servitude to European classical programs.

 

[Tulipstar]

For fun, I found the details and list them here.
Here are all the WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP LADIES FS judge panels since 2013.

Etc.

You're ignoring the point, which is that a lot of those countries are not all that heavily influenced by Russia or Russian culture. There are, however, more countries in Europe than in North America, and since judges need to come from different countries, you'll likely see lots of Europeans judging. This especially since more European countries have the money/climate/interest for skating than many countries in other continents.

I really don't see why that would mean they all want Russia to win above others, though. I think almost any Western European would agree that we get a lot more exposure to American culture than Russian culture. Maybe the percentage of this exposure is declining somewhat recently, but I would say this is in favour of own or Asian (especially East-Asian) pop-cultural influences, not Russian culture.

 

[NAOTMAA]

I don't like the half (?) gloves that Alina and Karen are sporting. It makes them look cheap The rest of their costumes are beautiful and would be greatly improved without them :

 

[OS]

You're ignoring the point, which is that a lot of those countries are not all that heavily influenced by Russia or Russian culture. There are, however, more countries in Europe than in North America, and since judges need to come from different countries, you'll likely see lots of Europeans judging. This especially since more European countries have the money/climate/interest for skating than many countries in other continents.

I really don't see why that would mean they all want Russia to win above others, though. I think almost any Western European would agree that we get a lot more exposure to American culture than Russian culture. Maybe the percentage of this exposure is declining somewhat recently, but I would say this is in favour of own or Asian (especially East-Asian) pop-cultural influences, not Russian culture.

You are also ignoring the importance of diversity should be modern standard in any judge and jury situation that involves human judgement, to prevent inherent human biases. World Championship should be a global event, not an European event.

Why do you think any jury selection under the court of law generally requires pre-check, interview and vetos from all sides to ensure a balanced and credible view can be represented to push for the likely fairest outcome. This can have anything to do with social status, geography, culture, race, gender, profession, income, ethnicity, education, criminal records etc... but apparently not done, even at Olympic level judge panel.

The disproportionate European judges at WORLD Championship events for the past FIVE consecutive years should be contention, for making more than 87% representation of judges all from Europe (When there are so many ISU judges from all continents to choose from on the list). How would it not eventually create a snowball effect that favours Europeans? To slant a panel, you just need minimum 2 judges working together. They had more than ample opportunities to do so with this current set up.

Is the UN only made out of European countries? Why does PCS inflation always goes to European skaters first? There are currently 7 continents in the world, it will be nice to have more than 3 continents make the judges panel every year, and have the panels be more fairly represented. 13% representation from all other continents during the last 5 years is truly appalling and ISU should be sued for discrimination. What if we lump all european countries under EU only, and have minimum 3 per continent. 3x Asia/Australia, 3x Europe, 3x North and South America, that would have been fairer to represent a global view.

 

[Arriba627]

Just curious, are there monetary prizes for teams?

The teams split $80,000, $60,000, $40,000. Not a bad gig!

 

[charlotte14]

Better than a bomb or plane, I guess.

I feel a bit bad for Medvedeva. Not a fan of her. But I find it quite annoyed when some people attack her jump technique even though other ladies have the same flaws. Some mock her programs even though they're nothing sort of some disasters. Her new program is fine and it has connection to a story, there is no need to attack it.

 

[Baron Vladimir]

The disproportionate European judges at WORLD Championship events for the past FIVE consecutive years should be contention, for making more than 87% representation of judges all from Europe (When there are so many ISU judges from all continents to choose from on the list). How would it not eventually create a snowball effect that favours Europeans? To slant a panel, you just need minimum 2 judges working together. They had more than ample opportunities to do so with this current set up.

Is the UN only made out of European countries? Why does PCS inflation always goes to European skaters first? There are currently 7 continents in the world, it will be nice to have more than 3 continents make the judges panel every year, and have the panels be more fairly represented. 13% representation from all other continents during the last 5 years is truly appalling and ISU should be sued for discrimination. What if we lump all european countries under EU only, and have minimum 3 per continent. 3x Asia/Australia, 3x Europe, 3x North and South America, that would have been fairer to represent a global view.

You are talking nonsense. Or you dont have a clue how choice of judges works in a sport competition. In Figure skating union 2/3 countries are European. A lot of contries in the world just dont have FS at all. Talking about judges, even more of 2/3 are represents of European countries. You cant have judge from Colombia when they are not part of figure skating union, and you cant have judge from Singapore or Indonesia if there is no one. If you want right proportion by continents in panel of 9 judges then 1 judge should be from America, 1 or 2 from Asia(and Oceania) and 6 or 7 from Europe. And usually judging pannel looks like that in Competitions.

 

[zanadude]

At the same time, Zagitova beat both Wakaba and Marin - Japans #2-3 now.

Miyahara is still alive.

 

[Skater Boy]

Ohh, please!! Where exactly were Russian ladies favored by the judges? As far as I remember, at the Worlds in Boston 2015 Gracie and Ashley were pushed as hell. I think that Anna P deserved there the silver. And at last year Worlds, Osmond was again very pushed by the judges (I mean in the short, both Canadian ladies had inflated scores, to the detriment of Anna P). And Osmond was pushed all last season, and probably will continue this season as well. Zagitova will have a hard life to overcome this, because more than sure she'll be underscored as Russia no 2, and judges will favour Osmond and a Japanese.

I respectfully disagree. Osmond has worked very hard and if anything is often undermarked ironically like her compatriots - Manley, Chouinard and Rochette. All like Osmond and Daleman powerful jumpers yet charismatic and artistic. But somehow they got held back artistically. i am not sure how you can make these allegations. Osmond had been getting stronger and stronger last year and her short was getting better and better. If you want to complain about skaters being pushed it should be Kostner. Kostner does not have the skating skills equivalent of Chan - not quite yet she gets marks galore despite tech lacking programs. The judges will only push Osmond if she performs. However, it looks like Mai and Marin and the Japanese are right there - Medeveda is no longer so dominant.

 

[OS]

You are talking nonsense. Or you dont have a clue how choice of judges works in a sport competition. In Figure skating union 2/3 countries are European. A lot of contries in the world just dont have FS at all. Talking about judges, even more of 2/3 are represents of European countries. You cant have judge from Colombia when they are not part of figure skating union, and you cant have judge from Singapore or Indonesia if there is no one. If you want right proportion by continents in panel of 9 judges then 1 judge should be from America, 1 or 2 from Asia(and Oceania) and 6 or 7 from Europe. And usually judging pannel looks like that in Competitions.

If ISU's intention is to genuinely promote the sporting worldwide and creating a level playing field where no one is advantaged or disadvantaged, then it needs to take better initiatives to include more diversity in its judge panel, but as it is, it is a cesspool of hand me downs from the rich who clearly abuse their management positions who want to retain power and hog favourable advantages where they can benefit them. How is it any different than inside dealing or corruption? If UN or any international organisation is run like that, it will still be predominantly rich western countries, all developing country might as well stay out as there will never ends up anywhere.

You say 2/3 are European countries, that's 66% yet the past 5 consecutive years, the proportion of European judges makes well over 87 % (8/9) proportion even when 2 WCs took place in ASIA (no Asian judges selected), as a result we see overwhelming trend of inflation only happens with European skaters. To the point making the sport becoming totally uncompetitive and frankly a bit of a farce today. You could have Anyone over 70 PCS mess up half of their program while a 2nd or 3rd tier skaters who might not had the chance to establish their artistic credentials but aced all their 7 triples program (without 3A) but still not get close to their score. An organisation should not make judging conditions and rules based on protecting their most wealthy while making it uncompetitive for others to get a foothold. This is a form of corruption and does not help the credibility of the sport. This not home games, so why is ISU treating it like one.

I don't care how things were, had been, these trends clearly indicate grounds for discrimination for none Europeans without representation. To able to compete fairly in the Olympics games is a human right, if IOC intend to strengthen its resolution towards non discrimination with initiatives to stamp out discriminatory practices and promote social inclusion, they should look into this matter asap. If the Asian countries had done this to any sport, there'd be massive complaints already in the media. They should look for opportunities to train and include mores judges from other regions including Singapore, Indonesia and beyond, if not, why not. Don't tell me IOC don't have money either, these greedy lot.

 

[Tulipstar]

You are also ignoring the importance of diversity should be modern standard in any judge and jury situation that involves human judgement, to prevent inherent human biases. World Championship should be a global event, not an European event.

I would love for the sport to have more skaters and judges at top levels from many countries. This is why I'm very happy when countries like India or Malaysia are sending participants now, for instance. You were talking about Europeans favouring Russia and 'Russia cultural imperialism', so that's what I responded to.

Why do you think any jury selection under the court of law generally requires pre-check, interview and vetos from all sides to ensure a balanced and credible view can be represented to push for the likely fairest outcome. This can have anything to do with social status, geography, culture, race, gender, profession, income, ethnicity, education, criminal records etc... but apparently not done, even at Olympic level judge panel.

This actually proves my earlier point: you assume I know what a jury and jury selection is, even though I'm from a country where this does not exist. I do know actually, because I've been exposed to so much American media over the years. This while I wouldn't have a clue about Russia's law system or whether they have juries or not.
Because of this exposure, I also know that jury selection is far from a guarantee that a justice system is fair.

The disproportionate European judges at WORLD Championship events for the past FIVE consecutive years should be contention, for making more than 87% representation of judges all from Europe (When there are so many ISU judges from all continents to choose from on the list). How would it not eventually create a snowball effect that favours Europeans? To slant a panel, you just need minimum 2 judges working together. They had more than ample opportunities to do so with this current set up.

Is the UN only made out of European countries? Why does PCS inflation always goes to European skaters first? There are currently 7 continents in the world, it will be nice to have more than 3 continents make the judges panel every year, and have the panels be more fairly represented. 13% representation from all other continents during the last 5 years is truly appalling and ISU should be sued for discrimination. What if we lump all european countries under EU only, and have minimum 3 per continent. 3x Asia/Australia, 3x Europe, 3x North and South America, that would have been fairer to represent a global view.

You keep insisting that Russians/Europeans are favoured by European judges, but totally ignore what we have told you before: lots of European countries don't have a great affinity with Russia at all.
Do most people in your country have a special affinity with countries that you first need to pass three to four other countries for to reach? I don't think so.
Europe and the relationships between different countries is way more complex than "they're all Europeans, they must favour each other!"

That said, I wouldn't mind if judges came from different continents. I would also love it if we have serious medal contenders from all over the world instead of just North-America, Europe and East-Asia.

 

[slider11]

Mirai is progressing nicely! Mid 130s mean 140s are in reach! Get that 3A solid and work on your PCSs. The Miss Saigon is a good vehicle for her. She should watch the US Public Broadcasting program "Vietnam" by Ken Burns. With her Asian ancestry, I think this could help her garner the appropriate emotions for this challenging period.

 

[OS]

You keep insisting that Russians/Europeans are favoured by European judges, but totally ignore what we have told you before: lots of European countries don't have a great affinity with Russia at all.
Do most people in your country have a special affinity with countries that you first need to pass three to four other countries for to reach? I don't think so.
Europe and the relationships between different countries are way more complex than "they're all Europeans, they must favour each other!"

That said, I wouldn't mind if judges came from different continents. I would also love it if we have serious medal contenders from all over the world instead of just North-America, Europe and East-Asia.

It is my conclusion after seeing the pattern of judging over the years. How else can you explain the unprecedented level of PCS inflation for selected European skaters? And why we always get the greatest inflation at European Championships every year without fail? And how would that impact the field if these trend continued to WC by the same pool of judges with the same European contenders?

In any case, think of them as preventative measures that is progressive part of modernising the sport into the 21st century. More inclusion and representation. In the last 5 years, China has not even judged once, Japan only once, USA only once, despite all hosted WCs. Theoretically, if all judges are fair and just, there should be no difference, so there should be no problem.

You can say that about Ukraine and Russia too, yet we have Yuri Balkov, judged multiple time at the Olympics despite caught cheating, working for Russia interests.

Actually, I have been a eurosceptic for years... but given the ongoing observation on Kostner's PCS for many many years, seeing the type of programs that does well, do not do well, analysed all these protocols, observed these past 5 consecutive years of unprecedented PCS inflation for the selected few (New European Champions = New Kostners, Javier's scoring), it is the only explanation.

Although now anonymous judging system has been finally removed preventing hiding judges bias, it remains fairly easy to hack through targeted stats manipulation which was not possible under 6.0

This can be achieved through targeted scale values, bonuses, features, elements, penalties changes for or against your skater etc.. To improve or disadvantage score probability I can just compile all data from all the judging panels, compile a list of judges who have historically favoured my skater, which judges had historically been most harsh with my potential rivals, and place them strategically on targetted events to result a probable outcome, including technical judges. All done without breaking any rules or being found out. Imagine the amount of favour I would able to carry with various federations if I am the gatekeeper. I can fiddle around the variabilities without ever being discovered or challenged (put that in the rule book), given these protocols are supposed to be scrambled anyway (during old anonymity days), even the judges themselves might not able to tell whether their scores have been entered correctly.

Performance on the day is almost secondary. When you can manipulate probabilities through Maths to deride a probable outcome. Inflating PCS is only good if you wish to cushion those you want to keep at the top, whereas if you have a skater you want to catch up and reach the top, The top skater's PCS should be deflated or contained, while you look for opportunities to reward your skaters with more TES while curtailing potential scoring opportunities and remove any advantages from your rival skaters. Which is why we are now experiencing extremely diversifying styles between the old and new for the ladies. Men progresses by merits of quads, women progress by virtue of restructuring their programs to the new points formula. Both were results of the system tweaks.

Mathematically, you just need 2 judges on your side at key competitionsto slant the panel, so a regional panel with regional preferences can have a higher probability of supporting regional taste. Intentional, unintentional, circumstantial are not important when you have 8/9 probability for minimum 2 judges slant. It is not hard to see how the sport came to be these recent years, and who has benefitted the most.

 

[madison]

I respectfully disagree. Osmond has worked very hard and if anything is often undermarked ironically like her compatriots - Manley, Chouinard and Rochette. All like Osmond and Daleman powerful jumpers yet charismatic and artistic. But somehow they got held back artistically. i am not sure how you can make these allegations. Osmond had been getting stronger and stronger last year and her short was getting better and better. If you want to complain about skaters being pushed it should be Kostner. Kostner does not have the skating skills equivalent of Chan - not quite yet she gets marks galore despite tech lacking programs. The judges will only push Osmond if she performs. However, it looks like Mai and Marin and the Japanese are right there - Medeveda is no longer so dominant.

Ohh, please, Osmond..... lol ) She makes crossovers before each of her jumps, she's not gracious at all and her free program this season makes me madly laugh )) I don't want to be rude (just maybe colourful ) but when I see her skating my thoughts are to a truck on the skating ring ... And yes she was really promoted last season, in detriment of Anna P, mainly, who is indeed a powerful skater, but also very sophisticated and polished.

 

[madison]

You keep insisting that Russians/Europeans are favoured by European judges, but totally ignore what we have told you before: lots of European countries don't have a great affinity with Russia at all.
Do most people in your country have a special affinity with countries that you first need to pass three to four other countries for to reach? I don't think so.
Europe and the relationships between different countries is way more complex than "they're all Europeans, they must favour each other!"

That said, I wouldn't mind if judges came from different continents. I would also love it if we have serious medal contenders from all over the world instead of just North-America, Europe and East-Asia.[/QUOTE]
I totally agree on that...

 

[Baron Vladimir]

If ISU's intention is to genuinely promote the sporting worldwide and creating a level playing field where no one is advantaged or disadvantaged, then it needs to take better initiatives to include more diversity in its judge panel, but as it is, it is a cesspool of hand me downs from the rich who clearly abuse their management positions who want to retain power and hog favourable advantages where they can benefit them. How is it any different than inside dealing or corruption? If UN or any international organisation is run like that, it will still be predominantly rich western countries, all developing country might as well stay out as there will never ends up anywhere.

You say 2/3 are European countries, that's 66% yet the past 5 consecutive years, the proportion of European judges makes well over 87 % (8/9) proportion even when 2 WCs took place in ASIA (no Asian judges selected), as a result we see overwhelming trend of inflation only happens with European skaters. To the point making the sport becoming totally uncompetitive and frankly a bit of a farce today. You could have Anyone over 70 PCS mess up half of their program while a 2nd or 3rd tier skaters who might not had the chance to establish their artistic credentials but aced all their 7 triples program (without 3A) but still not get close to their score. An organisation should not make judging conditions and rules based on protecting their most wealthy while making it uncompetitive for others to get a foothold. This is a form of corruption and does not help the credibility of the sport. This not home games, so why is ISU treating it like one.

I don't care how things were, had been, these trends clearly indicate grounds for discrimination for none Europeans without representation. To able to compete fairly in the Olympics games is a human right, if IOC intend to strengthen its resolution towards non discrimination with initiatives to stamp out discriminatory practices and promote social inclusion, they should look into this matter asap. If the Asian countries had done this to any sport, there'd be massive complaints already in the media. They should look for opportunities to train and include mores judges from other regions including Singapore, Indonesia and beyond, if not, why not. Don't tell me IOC don't have money either, these greedy lot.

You didnt read quite well what im saying. Not every country has an ISU judge with licence to judge Olympic competition. If you look in a poll of licensed judges im pretty sure 75% countries who have it are from Europe. Thats why i said that 6 or 7 of 9 will be the right proportion. I agree that 8 of 9 is not maybe right, but with that logic 2 North Americn judges on the panel will be equally wrong. Anyway i dont think that one judge will make a difference. Like some other posters already said that isnt the reason why Russian skater won or lost the competion. If judges really use so much preferencies while judging like you are saying, how do you think that GBR judge for example will judge in Russia favour, and not in USA favour. That is even more out of logic. And there is no really trends, the situation is there is no FS organization and judges in a lot of countries. In other Olympic sports you have Egyptan or Mongolian judges in sports they wanted to be involved. Rulles are the same for all sport organizations who are part of Olympic sports. To claim FS is different is apsurd.

 

[OS]

You didnt read quite well what im saying. Not every country has an ISU judge with licence to judge Olympic competition. If you look in a poll of licensed judges im pretty sure 75% countries who have it are from Europe. Thats why i said that 6 or 7 of 9 will be the right proportion. I agree that 8 of 9 is not maybe right, but with that logic 2 North Americn judges on the panel will be equally wrong. Anyway i dont think that one judge will make a difference. Like some other posters already said that isnt the reason why Russian skater won or lost the competion. If judges really use so much preferencies while judging like you are saying, how do you think that GBR judge for example will judge in Russia favour, and not in USA favour? That is even more out of logic. And there is no really trends, the situation is there is no FS organization and judges in a lot of countries. In other Olympic sports you have Egyptan or Mongolian judges in a sports they wanted to be involved. Rulles are the same for all sport organizations who are part of Olympic sports. To claim FS is different is apsurd.

Then ISU/IOC/Rest of figure skating world need to take greater initiative to ensure a diversifying and balanced group of judges should be in place, and make a conscientious effort to provide greater representation. Or even better... get rid of fed supported judges. Make Judging organisation independent altogether. This is the 2017, not 1950s.

I am puzzled. Why would 2 North American judges on the same panel be considered as wrong? When 8/9 European judges on the same panel would right? (or even 7/9) :think:

Great Britain (Where I am based) is an always exception, we pride ourselves on independent thoughts (sometimes, uh... too independent).

 

[Spirals for Miles]

Two Americans would be wrong because there's so many more European countries with qualified judges than there are in the US, Canada, and Mexico (the ISU qualified countries) With 7 European judges, which is right considering the amount of countries with qualified judges--who are not all wanting Russian domination, having 2 North Americans would mean no judges from Asia. And we all agree that that's not right.

 

[OS]

Two Americans would be wrong because there's so many more European countries with qualified judges than there are in the US, Canada, and Mexico (the ISU qualified countries) With 7 European judges, which is right considering the amount of countries with qualified judges--who are not all wanting Russian domination, having 2 North Americans would mean no judges from Asia. And we all agree that that's not right.

Oh there should definitely be judges from Asia, but also ideally also from not so obvious places like Mexico, Brazil, Khazahsatan, India, Phillippines, Greenland even (Possible?), but you get my point. Diversity and balanced representation. Prevent snowball effect we experienced that resulted in inflation due to inherant biases (although people can disagree, but the result speak for it self).

No continent should dominate so much consecutively. Make everyone on the ISU judges roster list get to judge at least once every 3 or 4 years on rotation, at different events. Minimum 3 continents per panel, and no more than 4 judges from the same continent, or ideally no same judge from the same continent judging the same event within 3 years. No same judge should judge the same skater consecutively over a season. Those who judged at European Championship should not judge at Worlds. There must be a balance somewhere.

Do they have the same judges make up in gymnastics for example?

 

[Yatagarasu]

Diversity and balanced representation.

Only if they actually know what they're doing. Having seen the "wonderful" way the Mexican judge for example scores, or say Australian, then no, I am not for any diversity just for the sake of diversity and diversity as you describe it, because Europe suddenly became a country according to you and not a continent.

As far as I see, diversity is already represented by different countries. We do not have five judges from one country. And no matter how many times you repeat it, European judges are not some kind of monolith, all of them representing "one" place. Now until by some miracle (and it isn't happening any time soon) all states that comprise the European Union agree to some sort of Euro-USA, and that ends up leading to only one judge from UES, we already have diversity - different countries, different judges.
Nothing is preventing other countries to get qualified judges and put them in the pool.

Once more, European states are not a monolith. We have incredibly differing cultures, socio-economic conditions and history. All of us have different relations to Russia - which seems to be your point - and these are often incredibly complex relations, precisely due to our very long history.