2018 Skate America Mens FS

[Metis]

I'm not that good a watcher (or judger of the right edges, the underrotations, etc.) as some of you, and though I actually liked his programme today (whether he had unfair calls or not), I do think Vincent's miss yesterday made him not good enough today to reach the podium even if today he skated beautifully (he did, I loved it). I for one was pleased to see Sergei up there and Michal, even though I thought yesterday Michal was held up too high (although there's no conspiracy I know of to hold up a Czech skater) together with Nathan who definitely was the best here - anyone who disagrees with that is sticking to a conspiracy theory of his own which is not shared.

Actually, Zhou is just... not very consistent. He can have a well-scored short and fall apart (see: WC17), so I seriously doubt it was his score after the short that rattled him. I’m not trying to beat up on Zhou, but he’s a well-known headcase to the point of making Kostner look like the model of grace under pressure, and he’s had UR issues for his entire career. Moreover, having a whole suite of coaches is not a great sign and it doesn’t seem to have helped him with his technique — he’s definitely not improved at all there. Zhou’s main gimmick has been having the 4Lz and 4F, which gives him the BV to challenge Chen, among others; unfortunately, this isn’t quite as effective a strategy since the scoring change and he lacks other outstanding qualities — his skating skills are quite weak, his jumps (aside from the UR issue) don’t have much to recommend them (exceptional height, distance, etc.), and his components are already generous despite being deservedly lower than most of the other men’s. Zhou is also about to meet serious competition for his slot as “the US guy who isn’t Nathan Chen” from Alex K., so it’s going to get worse and it may not get better for him.

Overall thoughts:
Nathan: Clear winner. Total score was a bit much, however, but what else is new? (I’m admittedly annoyed by his component marks, as always.) Not sure what to make of his FS — I don’t dislike it but I don’t like it either, which has been the way I’ve felt since we first saw it in shows. Not sure what happens next — this was a relatively weak field and everyone was sloppy — but it was a solid debut. Good luck to him in managing both school and skating.

Brezina: I remain thrilled he didn’t retire. Even if he’s not in contention for a medal, he’s one my favourites to watch. MamaMetis joined me in watching the event and she’s become a major Brezina fan, which is adorable. I appreciate his skating skills and programme aesthetic; I still prefer his FS from last season, but this one is still very much a Brezina programme, and it’s always a treat to watch a skater who has developed their style to the point where every programme is clearly “theirs.”

Matteo: I remain in love with (NotSo)BabyMaleCaro. I am not in love with this free, as it seems like a lesser version of last season’s programme, which actually worked for me because of the joy he brought to performing it. The music cuts are (relatively) okay, but I wish the entire programme (or 80% of it) was to “Paint it Black,” as we have a number of PIB programmes but none using the original track; it’s also the cut Matteo clearly responds to. There’s a good amount to unpack in PIB — the dissonance between the lyrics and the tempo, for one — and I would like to see Matteo have the opportunity to interpret a longer piece of music in the free. (If it’s going to be a medley, I’d rather something like Chan’s Beatles programme, as despite multiple tracks, they were all of a piece.)

I’m semi-irate over his scores, as always. SS was too low relative to what Chen received, and I’m not sure how his step sequences aren’t an automatic +5. Sigh. I would have placed him just ahead of Voronov — perhaps even with the same 0.63 gap. Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose — I don’t think the expanded GOE range is going to save me from another season of disappointment over Matteo’s marks.

(Also, has he always had edge issues with his flip? Because I always felt his toe jumps were lovely and particularly like his Lutz.)

Voronov: Can’t quibble with the placement, as MamaMetis finds him extremely attractive and I’d rather not upset her. [emoji56]

Julian: Thrilled for him. He really impressed me earlier this season and I hope he’s able to keep building momentum. Not my favourite free programme, but he lights up while skating it and seeing a skater taking joy in their performance always wins me over.

 

[friedbanana]

Nathan - program is a bit sparse at the beginning, but the last minute is fire! Great start to the GP series. I'm very excited to see how his free program (and short) develop over the season. Of the top men, Nathan has made some very interesting choices. Go Nathan

Vincent - tech panel was harsh this entire competition, and Vincent's rep as a chronic underrotater + the new UR threshold rule probably didn't help lol. I don't necessarily disagree with his UR calls though.

 

[Jaana]

I really loved Zhou´s performance = the music and choreography, suites him so perfectly! Hoping that he´ll soon fix the UR´s with his coach! While thinking about the matter a bit more, my guess is that the strategy of his coaches and him has been a good one: One should not publicly admit errors or faults, but just silently work to fix them...

 

[VegMom]

Because it’s a sport. You don’t get points for “trying”.

If you do a clean and beautiful 3Lz, that should be worth more than an underrotated 4Lz, because you have done what you set out to do. If we are just going to say, oh well, 3.5 revolutions beats 3 revolutions, well not something I want to watch.....

First off, it wasn't 3.5 revolutions. There would be no debate if it were that under-rotated. It was 3.75 revolutions or 4 revolutions depending who you ask and what camera angle you used. No one called it 3.5 revolutions.

Second, it was a bigger, better jump than a 3Lz.

And yes, you do get points for trying. They deliberately give 75% of a jump's base value if it's under-rotated. That 75% is still higher than the base value for the triple. So the intention appears to reward bigger jumps even when they are not perfect.

My issue is that the double penalty on it (one penalty from the tech panel and additional penalties from the GOE scores) resulted in a score that made his 4Lz worth fewer points than his 3Lz, though it appears that is not what the IJS scoring intends to do.

 

[el henry]

First off, it wasn't 3.5 revolutions. There would be no debate if it were that under-rotated. It was 3.75 revolutions or 4 revolutions depending who you ask and what camera angle you used. No one called it 3.5 revolutions.

Second, it was a bigger, better jump than a 3Lz.

And yes, you do get points for trying. They deliberately give 75% of a jump's base value if it's under-rotated. That 75% is still higher than the base value for the triple. So the intention appears to reward bigger jumps even when they are not perfect.

My issue is that the double penalty on it (one penalty from the tech panel and additional penalties from the GOE scores) resulted in a score that made his 4Lz worth fewer points than his 3Lz, though it appears that is not what the IJS scoring intends to do.

That is why I used the 3.5 figure, I actually had dimly in my memory that you could get a lower point total for in-between rotations. I understand what you are saying now about the "double" count, but theoretically, one could have a gorgeous underrotation, although I don't know how that would happen. My personal preference still stands, and it looks as though maybe the scoring system is going that way, I would rather see a gorgeous, high, perfectly executed triple than a half baked (or three quarter baked) quad; lookee here, what a jock I am, Imma tryin a quad.

We are just going to have to disagree on whether Vincent rotated four times "depending on the camera angle". I will depend on the American tech caller rinkside for that call.

 

[Seren]

I was at the rink and I agreed with all Vincent’s calls. In person I thought they were fairly obvious. The hook and the amount of snow were the give away.

 

[VegMom]

One of Vincent’s coaches has gone public with some thoughts:

https://www.facebook.com/CoachTomZ/posts/323866178417034/

 

[moriel]

One of Vincent’s coaches has gone public with some thoughts:

https://www.facebook.com/CoachTomZ/posts/323866178417034/

Cant say i agree. Many people here have pointed out that Vincent URs were fairly obvious here.
Yep, finishing off podium hurts. But also, there are many events where other skaters could have finished ahead of vincent if the URs were called properly.

Also Mirai is known for having UR issues.

 

[VegMom]

He’s saying there’s a need for better and more cameras so the tech panel can make a more informed decision. You don’t think skating could benefit from more and better cameras? Really?

 

[karne]

He’s saying there’s a need for better and more cameras so the tech panel can make a more informed decision. You don’t think skating could benefit from more and better cameras? Really?

Sure. But it wouldn't be to Vincent's benefit as all that would happen is it'll be easier for the TP to see more of his URs.

 

[moriel]

He’s saying there’s a need for better and more cameras so the tech panel can make a more informed decision. You don’t think skating could benefit from more and better cameras? Really?

I'm saying that he should have said that when Vincent beat Aliev with 6 uncalled URs.

 

[Jaana]

He’s saying there’s a need for better and more cameras so the tech panel can make a more informed decision. You don’t think skating could benefit from more and better cameras? Really?

With more cameras it might happen that Zhou gets even more UR´s..., would that be a good idea?

 

[VegMom]

With more cameras it might happen that Zhou gets even more UR´s..., would that be a good idea?

If that's what happens so be it. I'm not a ride or die Zhou fan. I like the kid and want to see him succeed but I also don't really care that much.
What I care about is my skater - I want my kid to have a chance to succeed. When I see how biased and subjective the scores are - and how efforts to make things more fair, like cameras, are ignored, it makes me feel like my kid won't have a chance.

I think Vincent should probably stick to triples now that he's basically got no chance of doing a quad and getting good marks on it. Rizzo beat him without any good quads. Judges hated Rizzo's quad way worse than they hated Vincent's quads but Rizzo scored 4th instead of 5th. Sergei got 3rd with only a quad toe. Brezina got 2nd with only a quad salchow. We know Vincent has good triples. The new scoring doesn't reward quads nearly as high as it used to, even when done well. So they're not as crucial to a program. So... leave them out. Or stick to one easy one.

Everyone keeps saying Vincent just needs to learn to jump higher, rotate faster, land it more cleanly. But really, what if he can't do better than he's doing? Statistically, he's pretty much at his peak athletic ability right now at age 17 and it's mostly just mental from here on out. He's not likely to jump higher or rotate much faster.

Or what if the risks outweigh the benefits? The competition prizes are not enough to pay for skating, as discussed in the coach's comments. And the injury risks of quads... it's just not worth it. If I were his mom, I'd say stop the quads and just focus on other stuff for 3 years. If in Olympic year he wants to go for it, then add them back in.

 

[ancientpeas]

I have a plan. Let's cut 30 more seconds from each program so we can spend 30 more seconds waiting for marks when the judges have to review 15 different camera angles. Fun!

I could see several of is urs in real time. If an old blind bat like me can see them then you are under rotating.

 

[nguyhm]

If that's what happens so be it. I'm not a ride or die Zhou fan. I like the kid and want to see him succeed but I also don't really care that much.
What I care about is my skater - I want my kid to have a chance to succeed. When I see how biased and subjective the scores are - and how efforts to make things more fair, like cameras, are ignored, it makes me feel like my kid won't have a chance.

I think Vincent should probably stick to triples now that he's basically got no chance of doing a quad and getting good marks on it. Rizzo beat him without any good quads. Judges hated Rizzo's quad way worse than they hated Vincent's quads but Rizzo scored 4th instead of 5th. Sergei got 3rd with only a quad toe. Brezina got 2nd with only a quad salchow. We know Vincent has good triples. The new scoring doesn't reward quads nearly as high as it used to, even when done well. So they're not as crucial to a program. So... leave them out. Or stick to one easy one.

Everyone keeps saying Vincent just needs to learn to jump higher, rotate faster, land it more cleanly. But really, what if he can't do better than he's doing? Statistically, he's pretty much at his peak athletic ability right now at age 17 and it's mostly just mental from here on out. He's not likely to jump higher or rotate much faster.

Or what if the risks outweigh the benefits? The competition prizes are not enough to pay for skating, as discussed in the coach's comments. And the injury risks of quads... it's just not worth it. If I were his mom, I'd say stop the quads and just focus on other stuff for 3 years. If in Olympic year he wants to go for it, then add them back in.

I think Vincent is quite ambitious and will be reluctant to back down on doing the quads (I hope I'm wrong). IIRC he took pride in being able to do/learning the 4Lz in very short period of time. May be learning too fast without proper techniques could back fire later on.

 

[Hyena]

Moving the discussion away from Vincent for a moment - I’m not sure how I feel about the new FS length yet. For most of the skaters here, their programs were jumping exercises that only really came alive during the step sequences. I noticed this especially for Rizzo and Voronov. The good side is that I think the skaters felt that too, and it made for some very exciting step sequences. Sergei and Nathan in particular killed them. Credit to Julian Yee - I thought his FS was the most completely choreographed and performed throughout.

 

[Mrs. P]

Moving the discussion away from Vincent for a moment - I’m not sure how I feel about the new FS length yet. For most of the skaters here, their programs were jumping exercises that only really came alive during the step sequences. I noticed this especially for Rizzo and Voronov. The good side is that I think the skaters felt that too, and it made for some very exciting step sequences. Sergei and Nathan in particular killed them. Credit to Julian Yee - I thought his FS was the most completely choreographed and performed throughout.

Julian is SUCH a performer. It is not reflected in the PCS nearly enough. Thanks for the report! It is interesting to hear how people loved the SS of so many skaters, and your observation does explain that!

 

[jersey1302]

Ok so.. I said this in my recap of skate america on the freeskate youtube channel, I will say it here too.. I found the men very lackluster.. Aside from Chen looking like hes a much more rounded skater this year, I was very disappointed. I was disappointed in the number of downgraded jumps and the amount of men who under rotated jumps.. 7/12 under rotated.. thats more than half the field. Lets be real...and this isnt taking anything away from the silver and bronze medalists.. but those scores are so far off a podium spot at a world championship its not even funny.. I also notice Nam had much more power and speed this year through out both of his programs.. that was a huge thing he was missing the last few years. That was nice to see. Also congrats to Yee as he became the first Malaysian skater to land a quad and he was 3rd after the SP.. good for him!!. Kevin Reynolds needs a new coach.. or to just give up.. honestly he hasnt improved since he was 15. His quads are just too small to get the full rotation. I am really surprised they haven't re worked his technique to try and get them higher.