2021 U.S. Nationals: Senior Men - Free Skate

[BlissfulSynergy]

I did not say that you denigrate skaters, and I did not make a sly jab at you.

In fact, I bent over backward from the beginning to say that my earlier post was not a reaction to anything that I have seen from you and that I know that you do not like "dissing" anyone.

What I had in mind is assorted comments -- not from you -- about *men* skaters who are working hard on PCS but who often are the subject of "dissing" -- again, not by you.

I was not thinking about pairs at all.

Inappropriate in this thread, or in any thread. End of.

 

[el henry]

As a general comment, I would like to add that "dissing" also gets old for a different category of skater -- the ones for whom PCS is the biggest target area for improvement. (Jason obviously is not in this category.)

A skater could be working very hard on PCS, and consistently performing quality run-throughs at home that would be worthy of good PCS -- without (yet ) getting over the hurdle of delivering the same quality *in competition*.

(BlissfulSynergy, I am in agreement with you about Jason, and I know that you do not like "dissing" of anyone.
I want to be clear that my post is not a reaction to anything that I have seen from you.
I just am taking the opportunity to make a similar point that is applicable to skaters other than Jason.)

Are you talking about some of my posts, where I decidedly think that Nathan and Vincent, particularly in their early years, could improve their PCS?
even in this LP, even with Jason's mistake, I did not find their PCS to be equal that of Jason's.
If you think my opinions are getting old, I would appreciate the courtesy of telling me directly.

And if you do not, well, it is hard to tell when you talk in vague generalities rather than directly engage.

 

[el henry]

I was about to call and report a robbery in that Yaroslav didn't have a Fan Fest but then I remembered anyone can create a Fan Fest, so here's Yaroslav's

Thread 'Yaroslav Paniot' https://www.goldenskate.com/forum/threads/yaroslav-paniot.87643/

As I said I'm at work, so it's not very exciting yet, but hopefully I can add some links and stuff later.

Yay for starting a new Fan Fest.

A quick note for those who have not seen Yaro before: he did compete in American summer comps (or at least in the Philly summer comp where I have seen him), representing Ukraine. He has trained in California forever, although I do not remember who his previous coaches were?

As I remember him, he was a most impressive jumper, but with little polish. I don't even remember his programs, TBH. He has really upped his performance game. And I say that as someone who if I never see another Elvis program again, it will be too soon, I still liked Yaro's

Maxim has also come to Philly as a junior, but his commitment to a program was always there, and impressive in one so young.

I'm glad they both made impressions here.

 

[moonvine]

When did Paniot start representing the US? I remember he represented Ukraine in Pyeongchang. It’s a little interesting to switch to a larger country, especially in terms of qualifying to go to the higher level competitions.

Last year I believe. I seem to remember him skating in Sectionals and a big deal being made.

 

[moonvine]

I can only speculate, of course, but putting an iffy element in the SP is much more of a risk than putting it in the LP. All three jumping passes are required elements, unlike the LP, and also unlike the LP there's really no opportunity to make up points after a mistake. Jason needed to set himself up in the top group in the short, which is what he did, and the way he knew he could do that was with a clean skate. No doubt his goal was to make sure he's chosen for the world team. This makes perfect sense to me. If this was a random grand prix, I'd say take the risk in the SP, too, to get the quad out there as much as possible. But the strategy with the world team on the line would be different here.

Agree 1000%. Land it in the short and he’s a genius. Fall and bye bye worlds

 

[anonymoose_au]

As I remember him, he was a most impressive jumper, but with little polish.

I noticed the jumps right after appreciating the Elvis costume. They were so secure, I was like "Did he just do a quad?!" and then I checked the BOX and saw he had.

And he sure sold that performance!

I haven't managed to catch up on Alexei K's performance (I hear it was really good), but apart from Yaro and Jason the other guy who really stood out to me was Jimmy Ma! I would have cheered and whooped for him if I hadn't been on the bus

 

[TontoK]

Getting level 3’s is unusual for Jason- I’m sure he and his team will analyze that and see how to fix it. This was Jason’s first major competition of the year, usually you get to figure these things out in early comps. When I think of it that way I’m not as sad about the popped 3A. He hasn’t competed since last February!

I would have to go and look at the protocols to see if this is actually true, but I kept half an eye on the score box, and it seemed there were a lot of L3 and L2 spins and steps in this competition.

Whether that's because the skaters are competition rusty or whether this caller was strict, I don't know.

 

[ice coverage]

Are you talking about some of my posts, where I decidedly think that Nathan and Vincent, particularly in their early years, could improve their PCS?
even in this LP, even with Jason's mistake, I did not find their PCS to be equal that of Jason's.
If you think my opinions are getting old, I would appreciate the courtesy of telling me directly.

And if you do not, well, it is hard to tell when you talk in vague generalities rather than directly engage.

Actually, some of what I have in mind goes back to Max Aaron's competitive years -- when he received quite a lot of unwarranted criticism on GS for supposedly not working on PCS, for supposedly not caring about PCS, etc.
Max retired in 2018, and at this point, I cannot cite specific posts from specific members who criticized him in that way. (I do not remember any such criticism from you.) But that type of criticism was happening on GS.

Both before and after Max's retirement, I sometimes have seen similar PCS-related criticism against other men skaters. Off the top of my head, I cannot quote specific examples.
But I can assure you that your comment that I am quoting below is *not* at all what I have in mind.

even in this LP, even with Jason's mistake, I did not find their PCS to be equal that of Jason's.

You watched a competition, and you have an opinion about the PCS that judges gave on the day to skaters at that competition.
Nothing wrong with that.
For the purposes of this discussion, no different from having an opinion on the tech panel at a particular competition giving a certain level to a certain spin.

But to continue with the analogy of spinning, what I would be opposed to is if someone had made a hypothetical comment -- that you did *not* make -- that Skater X obviously does not care that he gets only Level 2 on spins.
For me, a competition protocol giving Level 2 to spins is not any kind of proof that the skater is not working hard to improve his spinning and that the skater is incapable of Level 3 or Level 4 spins when he is practicing.

In other words, my point is that being able to show in competition what the skater is capable of doing in practice is a hurdle not only for jumps, but also for other elements and for PCS.

---

... A quick note for those who have not seen Yaro before: he did compete in American summer comps (or at least in the Philly summer comp where I have seen him), representing Ukraine. He has trained in California forever, although I do not remember who his previous coaches were? ...

AFAIK:

I think Gambill was Yaro's first U.S. coach? (I am 99.9999% sure that she was his coach at 2017 Philadelphia International.)
After Gambill relocated to Colorado Springs, he at first continued to work with her at least to some extent -- I am not sure whether he was just making visits there plus working remotely with her, or whether he moved there temporarily?
By the time of 2020 U.S. Nats, Yaro had a different (male) coach in California. (The name escapes me -- anyone who really cares can look it up in the 2020 U.S. Nats event program, which is available on Fan Zone.)
In summer 2020, Yaro and Todd announced that they had started working together.
In answer to someone else's question in the the thread: Todd did say that Yaro's goals include representing the U.S. at Worlds and at the Olympics.​

ETA (on Feb 9)

Coming back at this late date to say that I was wrong about Gambill being Yaro's first coach in the U.S.
My apologies.

Ukraine-born Yaroslav Paniot shakes up U.S. figure skating ranks

At the 2021 U.S. Figure Skating Championships, Elvis was definitely in the building. In a hip-swiveling routine to a medley from the King of Rock ‘n’ Roll, Elvis Presley, Yaroslav Paniot landed three quadruple jumps to place third in the free skate.

olympics.nbcsports.com

(Feb 9)

Waiting Game Comes to an End for Paniot – International Figure Skating

After waiting for almost three years for a release from Ukraine, Yaroslav Paniot will finally be able to represent the U.S. next season.

www.ifsmagazine.com

(Feb 8)​

 

[elbkup]

I hope that Jason abandons the quad. Even if he manages to land one, so what? He will still be behind Vincent Zhou with 3 quads including a quad Lutz, and behind many men internationally.

I would much rather Jason be Jason. Keep on delivering programs that capture our hearts, take our breath away, get viewed a million times on You Tube,and comprize a clinic on skating skills. To me, that is more of a contribution to the sport of figure skating than landing a quad and getting 7th at the Olympics.

Understand the POV but I had to laugh at this!! Jordan Cowan of OnIcePerspectives posted on Instagram not long ago a montage of Jason quad attempts during a typical practice..
he can attempt them as often as he likes imho, or not for that matter... no big deal ;-)

https://www.instagram.com/p/CHB7O6EnHq1/?igshid=1np5z9g21w1x8

EDIT to add... My BAD!! Several of my friends in GS have pointed out Jason is practicing TRIPLE AXLES in this clip .. not quads!!
What the H was I thinking?! I DO know the difference .. I love the clip anyway because Jason is just being Jason his usual upbeat self.. so my apologies
Jason is the best of the best and I am a total fan!!

 

[ice coverage]

Understand the POV but I had to laugh at this!! Jordan Cowan of OnIcePerspectives posted on Instagram not long ago a montage of Jason quad attempts during a typical practice..
he can attempt them as often as he likes imho, or not for that matter... no big deal ;-)

https://www.instagram.com/p/CHB7O6EnHq1/?igshid=1np5z9g21w1x8

Also no big deal, but Jason practicing triple axels is what that OIP link shows.
(It was a practice from Halloween 2018, which Jordan posted on the two-year anniversary of the shoot.)

Always great to see Jordan's footage of Jason, so I enjoyed the trip down memory lane.

 

[el henry]

Actually, some of what I have in mind goes back to Max Aaron's competitive years -- when he received quite a lot of unwarranted criticism on GS for supposedly not working on PCS, for supposedly not caring about PCS, etc.
Max retired in 2018, and at this point, I cannot cite specific posts from specific members who criticized him in that way. (I do not remember any such criticism from you.) But that type of criticism was happening on GS.

......

In other words, my point is that being able to show in competition what the skater is capable of doing in practice is a hurdle not only for jumps, but also for other elements and for PCS.

---

AFAIK:

I think Gambill was Yaro's first U.S. coach? (I am 99.9999% sure that she was his coach at 2017 Philadelphia International.)​

After Gambill relocated to Colorado Springs, he at first continued to work with her at least to some extent -- I am not sure whether he was just making visits there plus working remotely with her, or whether he moved there temporarily?​

​

By the time of 2020 U.S. Nats, Yaro had a different (male) coach in California. (The name escapes me -- anyone who really cares can look it up in the 2020 U.S. Nats event program, which is available on Fan Zone.)​

​

In summer 2020, Yaro and Todd announced that they had started working together.​

In answer to someone else's question in the the thread: Todd did say that Yaro's goals include representing the U.S. at Worlds and at the Olympics.​

Understood, thank you for the explanation and for the further details on Yaro Paniot. ETA: and Tammy Gambill makes sense, Sean and Yaro giving each other shout-outs as former teammates maybe?

I do agree that with what I think you are saying here (I do not want to misrepresent), that skaters are well aware of where they need improvement, well aware of what judges have said, and work hard to make their programs more appealing to the judges. Unless it an incredibly rare (and in his instance, sad and frustrating) case like Christopher Bowman, no skater is sloughing off criticism or refusing to work.

 

[formersk8ter]

Just chiming in to say that Jimmy Ma's K&C moment after his free skate may have been my favorite of the entire US Nationals.

 

[WeakAnkles]

The last flight was just an absolute joy to watch, as Nathan showed he was human and not a perfect jumping machine, Paniot was a wonderful surprise, Jason's program is a delight with so much room to grow, Vincent grew tremendously as a performer, etc etc. They done brung it. And it was a pleasure to watch.

ETA: Hey, some of us absolutely applauded Max's unrelenting efforts to improve his GOE. He also was a delight: a jock with the heart of an artist (if not necessarily a "natural" one). And also and always a classy guy. Hope he's thriving.

 

[karne]

Understand the POV but I had to laugh at this!! Jordan Cowan of OnIcePerspectives posted on Instagram not long ago a montage of Jason quad attempts during a typical practice..
he can attempt them as often as he likes imho, or not for that matter... no big deal ;-)

https://www.instagram.com/p/CHB7O6EnHq1/?igshid=1np5z9g21w1x8

I have to laugh at someone posting this link to try and denigrate Jason when they can't even tell a 3A from a quad.

I also have to laugh that you think this proves some kind of deficiency...when the video shows Jason determined to get something right and trying over and over until he does, and when in fact it wasn't even supposed to be a training session but a simple filming session, which Jason himself turned into a rigorous training session.

In fact, it shows almost exactly the opposite of everything you were trying to imply with your laughing emoji.

 

[elbkup]

Also no big deal, but Jason practicing triple axels is what that OIP link shows.
(It was a practice from Halloween 2018, which Jordan posted on the two-year anniversary of the shoot.)

Always great to see Jordan's footage of Jason, so I enjoyed the trip down memory lane.

Oops! Looked like quads to me..

 

[elbkup]

I have to laugh at someone posting this link to try and denigrate Jason when they can't even tell a 3A from a quad.

I also have to laugh that you think this proves some kind of deficiency...when the video shows Jason determined to get something right and trying over and over until he does, and when in fact it wasn't even supposed to be a training session but a simple filming session, which Jason himself turned into a rigorous training session.

In fact, it shows almost exactly the opposite of everything you were trying to imply with your laughing emoji.

Glad you enjoyed it!!

 

[lariko]

Just chiming in to say that Jimmy Ma's K&C moment after his free skate may have been my favorite of the entire US Nationals.

Omg, yes, that was great! Sometimes K&C is a bit of its own show. Excellent programs as well, particularly the short program.

 

[labgoat]

rewatch

2021 Toyota U.S. Figure Skating Championships: General Info

Joint interview with Nathan Chen and Mariah Bell is new on Fan Zone today. Brian Boitano and Rusty Kath conducted the interview. 8:11 in length. https://usfigureskatingfanzone.com/watch/?Archive=2269&type=Live Below is the link to today's press release from NBC Sports re its Nats coverage...

www.goldenskate.com

 

[Mathman]

I have to laugh at someone posting this link to try and denigrate Jason when they can't even tell a 3A from a quad.

I also have to laugh that you think this proves some kind of deficiency...when the video shows Jason determined to get something right and trying over and over until he does, and when in fact it wasn't even supposed to be a training session but a simple filming session, which Jason himself turned into a rigorous training session.

I think you misinterpreted the post you responded to. The poster is not mocking Jason. The video is funny because it shows Jason mugging it up for the camera, showing off his always up-beat and effervescent personality, while also seriously working on his elements.

 

[lopesgw]

I would love to watch Jason’s Sinnerman short program but I can’t find it anywhere.... did anyone video it with a phone camera from their tv? Has anyone found a video?