Age limits and different tracks...

[Arwen17]

I'm bored right now and have a few questions...

1. Are there any age limits for No test thru Pre-Juv levels for the competitive track? I think the Test Track has no age limits at all? AKA if you're an adult, you can compete in pre-pre or whatever as long as you've passed the FS test for it. I know the only levels that go to Sectionals/Nationals are Juvenile thru Senior and Juvenile (under 13) and Intermediate (under 18) do have age limits. But I know they often have things like prelim, pre-juve, open-juve at Regionals and didn't know if they had age limits or if they're treated just like the Test Track. It seems like they should have age limits or something since for the pre-pre competitive track you need an axel, but for the Test Track you're not allowed an axel until Juvenile level.
If there are age limits for No-test thru Pre-Juve for competitive track, what are the specific limits?

2. Even if you're taking the Adult FS tests, are you allowed to compete in the standard test track during competitions if you wanted to? AKA even if someone passed Adult Silver FS test, they're still allowed to sign up for a pre-juve category since Test Track has no age limits? Or are they forced to sign up for an Adult Silver category?

3. I know very little about how the international or ISU events work. Which levels can go international? Novice, Junior, Senior only? What are the specific age limits for each of those levels?

4. I've seen plenty of charts for what elements are expected for the Test Track levels and Competitive levels in the USA. Do we have any charts for what is expected at each level in international competition?
I did find this: https://www.isu.org/media-guides/14593-figure-skating-media-guide-2017-18/file

5. I believe no triples are allowed in the Test Track (standard or adult). So if you ever get a triple jump (and want to use it in a real program), that person is expected to compete in the competitive track? Seems bad because what if they test all the way up to Senior level, but only competing in the Test track, then they think "what the hell? I've come this far, let's learn a few triples like 3sal and 3toe." Well now they're stuck at senior level because of their FS test, but they don't have the skills needed to compete at the senior level in the competitive track! (This kinda goes back to one of my previous posts how I don't completely like that FS tests determine what levels you can compete in, at least if you want to compete outside of the Test Track. They should scale it: AKA this your test track level and this is your equivalent competitive track level, even if you've already passed the FS tests, because everyone knows you're not competitive enough just because you passed the FS tests.)

 

[gkelly]

1. Are there any age limits for No test thru Pre-Juv levels for the competitive track?

No, there are not.

If there are many skaters entered at those levels at the same competition, often the host club/referee/accountant will break them into smaller groups according to age.

If an adult chooses to enter a standard track event instead of an adult event, or a "young adult" 18-20 who doesn't have the option to compete adult, they would be grouped in with teenagers. Unless there are so few entries at that level that there is only one event.

In the past I have seen events like pre-preliminary boys with two entrants aged maybe 7 and 17. Now that it is legal to combine boys and girls events at those levels, they would more likely be grouped with girls closer to their ages.

But I know they often have things like prelim, pre-juve, open-juve at Regionals and didn't know if they had age limits or if they're treated just like the Test Track.

These are all NON-qualifying competitions. They are not part of official Regionals. Most Regionals host clubs also host a non-qualifying competition the same week, or the previous weekend or maybe following, with nonqualifying events including Open Juvenile, Pre-Juvenile and below, Test Track, often entertainment or compulsory moves events, etc., and sometimes adult events.

They may or may not choose to hold final rounds for the events with large entry lists and multiple groups.

There are no age limits according to USFS rules.

However, these are not official Regionals even if coaches and skaters often refer colloquially to competing at regionals when they attend these nonqual events at (approximately) the same time and place as official Regionals.

If there are age limits for No-test thru Pre-Juve for competitive track, what are the specific limits?

You need to have passed the test for that level, or one level below if you wish to "skate up."

2. Even if you're taking the Adult FS tests, are you allowed to compete in the standard test track during competitions if you wanted to? AKA even if someone passed Adult Silver FS test, they're still allowed to sign up for a pre-juve category since Test Track has no age limits? Or are they forced to sign up for an Adult Silver category?

The Adult Silver test is not a prerequisite for Pre-Juvenile. To enter a Pre-Juvenile competition, you must have passed the Pre-Juvenile freeskate test . . . or the Preliminary freeskate test if you want to skate up.

(It is possible to cross over from standard track to adult track because many adult skaters passed the relevant tests before they became adults. It is not possible to cross from adult to standard, except from Adult Gold (the highest level of adult tests) to Intermediate.

3. I know very little about how the international or ISU events work. Which levels can go international? Novice, Junior, Senior only? What are the specific age limits for each of those levels?

Yes, basically international events are novice, junior, and senior levels. As far as the US is concerned, that's all that's relevant (US would send novice entries to events to the Advanced Novice category in events that have Advanced Novice and Basic Novice).

Internationally, those levels are determined by age, not by test level because the ISU does not hold or keep track of tests itself and different federations may use different tests or none at all.

Internationally, for Senior entrants must be at least 15. For Junior, at least 13 and not yet 19 (male pair and dance partners not yet 21). Off the top of my head, I believe Novices internationally must be at least 10 and not yet 15.
All these ages are figured as of the previous July 1. So sometimes you have 19-year-olds competing in Junior or 15-year-olds in Novice if their birthdays are in the second half of the calendar year.

4. I've seen plenty of charts for what elements are expected for the Test Track levels and Competitive levels in the USA. Do we have any charts for what is expected at each level in international competition?

The short program requirements for each level would give you a good idea of elements skaters at those levels are expected to be able to do.

The US uses ISU rules for Junior and Senior well-balanced program requirements. The ISU rules for those levels are the same as those used in the US.

If you're interested in ISU rules, you can download the Special Regulations and Technical Rules for figure skating from isu.org (link at the bottom of the home page under Figure Skating) and search the ISU Communications for novice rules -- I don't have time to search for you right now.

5. I believe no triples are allowed in the Test Track (standard or adult). So if you ever get a triple jump (and want to use it in a real program), that person is expected to compete in the competitive track? Seems bad because what if they test all the way up to Senior level, but only competing in the Test track, then they think "what the hell? I've come this far, let's learn a few triples like 3sal and 3toe."

I've never heard of that happening. Skaters who are going to try to learn triples usually start working on them before senior level and compete in standard qualifying events at intermediate and novice levels with or without those jumps.

Skaters who choose to do Test Track are usually those who put less time into training so they don't even want to train short programs.

Triple jumps are not something you can try and master just by saying "What the hell." They take hours of practice often for years before they're ready to put in a program.

However, if someone passed through their senior test as a recreational/test-focused skater and had been competing Test Track events and then decided to get serious about training including trying to learn triples after they already had their senior tests, their options would be to enter a standard-track senior event.

At a non-qualifying competition where short program and freeskate are separate events, not combined, a skater could enter standard SP and Test Track freeskate if they wanted. Or senior SP and junior FS if they hadn't actually passed the senior test. But they could not enter Test Track freeskate and standard freeskate at the same competition, nor could they enter any event at a lower level than the highest test they had passed.

Well now they're stuck at senior level because of their FS test, but they don't have the skills needed to compete at the senior level in the competitive track!

If you watch the standard-track senior ladies' competitions at Regionals, or at large nonqualifying competitions, you will see that the majority of senior ladies competing on standard track do not have any consistent triples. A hypothetical skater who had previously been competing Test Track and then chose to try to add triples, which she could only attempt in standard track competitions, would have plenty of company. She wouldn't be competitive for top spots, but, if she really did have competition-ready triple attempts, she'd fit in fine with all the rest of the senior ladies who aren't competitive either but chose to compete standard track anyway.

People don't pass their tests all the way up to senior without knowing what that will mean for their competitive options in the future. If they choose to "test out," it's because they don't intend to compete on the standard track any more or because they want to be able to say they competed as seniors even knowing they would not advance from Regionals.

 

[jf12]

5. I believe no triples are allowed in the Test Track (standard or adult). So if you ever get a triple jump (and want to use it in a real program), that person is expected to compete in the competitive track? Seems bad because what if they test all the way up to Senior level, but only competing in the Test track, then they think "what the hell? I've come this far, let's learn a few triples like 3sal and 3toe." Well now they're stuck at senior level because of their FS test, but they don't have the skills needed to compete at the senior level in the competitive track! (This kinda goes back to one of my previous posts how I don't completely like that FS tests determine what levels you can compete in, at least if you want to compete outside of the Test Track. They should scale it: AKA this your test track level and this is your equivalent competitive track level, even if you've already passed the FS tests, because everyone knows you're not competitive enough just because you passed the FS tests.)

I have never seen a separate test track competition for adults before. At Adult Junior-Senior level, all triples are allowed. It sounds like you're asking how someone could theoretically have the best of both worlds - to sandbag to the maximum, and also to be able to have the credential of being a high level skater. Well, you can't!

 

[Arwen17]

It is not possible to cross from adult to standard, except from Adult Gold (the highest level of adult tests) to Intermediate.

I know its possible to pass the Intermediate thru Senior tests as an "Adult" instead of the standard passing score. Does this count against you for entering standard track competitions?

then decided to get serious about training including trying to learn triples after they already had their senior tests

I was thinking that they started late or something and originally their goal was "get up to double axel" since they have no idea in the beginning whether or not they'll be able to get double axel or above. Most would assume it won't happen and go into the Test Track. But what if they do get all the way, take all the tests, and then start wanting to go further. They were always "serious", but they didn't know how far they would get since just getting thru all of the Test track takes a looong time. Although, I suppose they will probably start working on triples (or find out that they're capable of them) before they would reach their junior or senior FS tests since skaters always hold back and wait a long time before they take the FS tests.

If you watch the standard-track senior ladies' competitions at Regionals, or at large nonqualifying competitions, you will see that the majority of senior ladies competing on standard track do not have any consistent triples

ohhhh ok, this makes much more sense!

I have never seen a separate test track competition for adults before. At Adult Junior-Senior level, all triples are allowed. It sounds like you're asking how someone could theoretically have the best of both worlds - to sandbag to the maximum, and also to be able to have the credential of being a high level skater. Well, you can't!

lol no, no, that's not what I was saying at all. When I was going thru the restrictions for each level, Senior level in the standard test track specifically forbid any triples, but adult senior test track didn't say whether or not triples were allowed. So I just assumed they weren't allowed since it's not allowed in senior.
That's very interesting that they allow triples in adult senior competitions and not the standard senior test track. I mean we know most adults won't whip out a triple, but its interesting they don't expressly forbid it.
I smell a loophole. Some of these skaters who can do triples should go sandbag the adult competitions once they're over age 21 lol.

 

[JSM]

Adult competitions are a league of their own, and can't really be compared to standard track. The requirements for tests are different, as are the program elements. Quite frankly, if you can do triples, you're likely not doing test track. Most of the skaters (around here, at least) who test up through senior are graduating high school soon and "testing out", knowing that their skating career is coming to an end.

I compete Adult Int/Nov, and the highest jump allowed there is a double loop. When you get to Junior/Senior there are no restrictions, though very few adults do double axels or triples. ALL who do skated as kids, and they are generally very good skaters and deserve their accolades.

I do think you underestimate the time and money that it takes to not only acquire, but master triple jumps enough to include them in a long program. And it gets harder as you age.
That's also why there are age classes at the adult level.

 

[Arwen17]

Adult competitions are a league of their own, and can't really be compared to standard track. The requirements for tests are different, as are the program elements. Quite frankly, if you can do triples, you're likely not doing test track. Most of the skaters (around here, at least) who test up through senior are graduating high school soon and "testing out", knowing that their skating career is coming to an end.

I compete Adult Int/Nov, and the highest jump allowed there is a double loop. When you get to Junior/Senior there are no restrictions, though very few adults do double axels or triples. ALL who do skated as kids, and they are generally very good skaters and deserve their accolades.

I do think you underestimate the time and money that it takes to not only acquire, but master triple jumps enough to include them in a long program. And it gets harder as you age.
That's also why there are age classes at the adult level.

Do these age categories keep the skaters who can do 2A or triples in check? It seems kinda unfair since so few adults can do them. Or is this being treated like how few men can do quads, but because they can, they will always win?
I personally don't care either way, but I think I've seen/read discussion somewhere in the past of some adults being upset that some adults are extremely advanced because they skated as kids and therefore there's no way people who started as adults can ever come close to beating them. AKA they're seen as an "extended-kid" skater instead of an "adult" skater since they didn't start later in life.

 

[jf12]

lol no, no, that's not what I was saying at all. When I was going thru the restrictions for each level, Senior level in the standard test track specifically forbid any triples, but adult senior test track didn't say whether or not triples were allowed. So I just assumed they weren't allowed since it's not allowed in senior.
That's very interesting that they allow triples in adult senior competitions and not the standard senior test track. I mean we know most adults won't whip out a triple, but its interesting they don't expressly forbid it.
I smell a loophole. Some of these skaters who can do triples should go sandbag the adult competitions once they're over age 21 lol.

Well, most people who are doing double axels at Adult Sectionals and Nats in Junior-Senior are in many
cases old elite competitors who used to do triples. There's ice dancers who competed at senior nationals, or Worlds/Junior Worlds, who now compete at adult championships. There are people who are ex elite skaters, who are now 60 years old and only do singles, who must compete at Junior-Senior level as well.

I think the issue you're talking about, of someone testing through the levels and then belatedly realizing they shouldn't have, is less common than you think. At least in my area, test-track skating isn't incredibly common at all. I think its mostly for like 15 year olds that don't have an axel, who don't want to compete with little kids. The skaters you're thinking about who could fall into this problem, don't tend to ever skate test track. There's lots of girls in this area who are moderately serious and skate 5 days a week, who have up to 2Lz, good skating skills, and are already in their mid-late teens. They know don't really have a chance to be an elite skater. They skate at regular regionals and local competitions in intermediate and novice, they do solo dance, they do showcase. They do not tend to place well at regionals, but use their scores from year to year to compare with themselves. Without people like this, tbh there would hardly be anyone entering most competitions at all! Many of these skaters will try to test their senior free before they go to college, if they won't get to skate as much there.

 

[JSM]

99% of the adult skaters that I've met are supportive and encouraging of other adults, no matter when they started skating. We know how hard it is to juggle full time jobs, families, injuries, etc, and still skate. We all know we do it for the love of the sport and not for medals. We are not Olympic bound!

For competitions, yes, those that can do the best jumps are generally the best skaters and will win the competitions. At Adult Nationals, in addition to the championship (all ages) events, there are also age class events where you compete with others in your class, no qualifying required. 40 year olds will be against other 40 year olds, not 21 year olds.

 

[Arwen17]

There's lots of girls in this area who are moderately serious and skate 5 days a week, who have up to 2Lz, good skating skills, and are already in their mid-late teens. They know don't really have a chance to be an elite skater. They skate at regular regionals and local competitions in intermediate and novice, they do solo dance, they do showcase. They do not tend to place well at regionals, but use their scores from year to year to compare with themselves.

That perfectly describes where our most advanced girls end up. They don't go past intermediate or novice level. They don't get past Regionals, so they mostly focus on "fun stuff" like showcase. I suppose they eventually take their senior tests to just "finish up"? Because they're holding back on their tests just because they know they can only be competitive in the intermediate or novice level (but not seriously since it obviously wont get them past Regionals).

 

[gkelly]

I know its possible to pass the Intermediate thru Senior tests as an "Adult" instead of the standard passing score. Does this count against you for entering standard track competitions?

Adult passing scores apply to Moves in the Field tests Intermediate and above, and to dance tests.

If you want to pass a standard track freeskating test, you need to pass at the standard passing average, regardless of your age.

I was thinking that they started late or something and originally their goal was "get up to double axel" since they have no idea in the beginning whether or not they'll be able to get double axel or above. Most would assume it won't happen and go into the Test Track. But what if they do get all the way, take all the tests, and then start wanting to go further.

That never happens.

By the time someone is thinking about passing high-level freeskating tests, they have been around the sport for years and they understand what it will mean for their competitive options if they pass those tests.

Also, it is much MUCH more common for skaters to start out serious and ambitious at juvenile and intermediate levels and then scale back as they get older. In 25 years of skating as an adult and watching hundreds of other adults and serious and recreational kid skaters at my rinks over the years, I have never seen someone pass high level tests on a recreational basis and then later decide to get serious about training as a competitor. It almost always happens the other way around.

I have seen a tiny handful of above-average skaters "test out" up to senior before they were 14 or 15 because of lack of money or a family move to someplace with no ice rinks or because they chose to focus on academics or other interests instead. If out of that tiny sample one of them should happen to decide later to come back to skating as a competitor, she would need to compete at senior level. But they all knew that when they chose to test out, and they didn't expect to come back.

Although, I suppose they will probably start working on triples (or find out that they're capable of them) before they would reach their junior or senior FS tests since skaters always hold back and wait a long time before they take the FS tests.

Yes.

Even those who start out fairly recreationally and don't get serious until 12 or early teens and go on to get double axel and/or at least one triple close/consistent enough to attempt in competition are usually intermediates when they make that commitment. They had no reason to test above their peers before getting serious.

I did once see one skater who had started later and managed to master 2A, 3S, and 3T in her later teens. She competed intermediate with those jumps, with above-average but not stellar results, and then test up to senior the next year. Because she already had some triples and was already in her late teens. And the fields at Regionals are smaller at senior level, which is why it was more to her advantage to compete a year in senior than in novice before going off to college or whatever she did next.

lol no, no, that's not what I was saying at all. When I was going thru the restrictions for each level, Senior level in the standard test track specifically forbid any triples, but adult senior test track didn't say whether or not triples were allowed.

There's really no such thing as "adult senior test track."

That's very interesting that they allow triples in adult senior competitions and not the standard senior test track. I mean we know most adults won't whip out a triple, but its interesting they don't expressly forbid it.
I smell a loophole. Some of these skaters who can do triples should go sandbag the adult competitions once they're over age 21 lol.

They are entirely welcome to do so if they meet the age and test requirements.

jf12's observations are similar to mine.

Pay attention to the kids, and adults, at your rink. Sit in the stands or volunteer at the closest club competition to see the difference between the various levels. Attend an adult competition.

Enter an appropriate competition for your skill level, and check out the rest of the events.

Attend a regional competition if one is ever held near you.

Or watch Regionals and Adult Sectionals on IceNetwork, to get a sense of the range of ability at various levels. Read the IJS protocols.

The scenarios you're imagining are farfetched compared to what really happens in real life.


Now, with adults things can get complicated because there are wider age differences involved and skaters who tested as kids may have done so under different rules than are now in place. For those who come back after having skated as kids, their test level may not match their current skill level, but usually because they lost skills, not because they suddenly mastered jumps they couldn't do when they passed the tests. As jf12 notes, adults who reached a high test level without advanced jumps may need to compete against skaters who jump much better than them. That is the reason for the limits on jump content below the masters junior/senior level.

 

[Arwen17]

Adult passing scores apply to Moves in the Field tests Intermediate and above, and to dance tests.

If you want to pass a standard track freeskating test, you need to pass at the standard passing average, regardless of your age

woah, wait a second! I did not realize that they only have the "adult passing score" for the MIF tests and not the FS tests! Wow, what the heck? Why do that? No mercy for adults who want to go further than Adult Gold FS?
Well now I completely understand why I never saw "adult tests" for anything above Adult Gold on the USFSA's monthly tests passed lists. Geez, I would really like to know the ages of people passing the Intermediate thru Senior FS tests.

The scenarios you're imagining are farfetched compared to what really happens in real life.

I figured. I just like fully and completely understanding the way everything works, down to the last far-fetched detail lol.

 

[mskater93]

Also, at the masters junior/ senior levels, spins are still pretty key to point gathering. There are a few ladies who have done/do 2A and a few men who have done/do 2A and 3's, but most who make it at the champ level do 2Lz and below but earn around 10 base points in spins.

 

[JSM]

A freeskate test is element based. Can you perform the required elements or not? Age doesn't matter.

I don't know exact numbers, but I'd hazard a guess most skaters taking tests (at any level) are in the 12-18 range.

 

[Arwen17]

A freeskate test is element based. Can you perform the required elements or not? Age doesn't matter.

I don't know exact numbers, but I'd hazard a guess most skaters taking tests (at any level) are in the 12-18 range.

My impression was they grade easier on the Adult Pre-Bronze thru Adult Gold FS levels. AKA they don't expect sit spins to be perfectly thigh-parallel like they would with the kid standard test. That's why its surprising they stop any "adult leniency" when you hit Intermediate level in the adult track, even tho they continue that leniency throughout the adult MIF tests. Do they truly believe MIF is harder than a bunch of double jumps on FS tests? That seems to be what they're saying: "You need leniency on the MIF tests, but not the FS tests."

Isn't a MIF test element based too? I don't see why it deserves special leniency, but the FS does not.

 

[gkelly]

MIF are all about quality.

Quality counts in freestyle too, especially at higher levels, but if you land the jumps and get enough revolutions in position on the spins, you've accomplished most of what you need to on the freestyle tests.

Lack of quality on the in-between skating might be an issue.

But good presentation in a freestyle test can make up for some lesser athleticism.