Boot advice for narrow ankles

[isk8rboi]

I have a narrow ankle but the rest of my foot is fairly wide.

I skated on custom Harlicks for a long time but they never really fit properly. They were always too narrow and my feet just went numb after a while. They have since broken down some time ago, and my feet seem to have changed a bit since I got them so many years ago. One option was to repair them and get them widened out, but I decided to try something different as I didn't love the overall fit, aside from the heel possibly. Enter the Jackson Synergy boots.

I have been skating on the Synergy boots for a couple weeks now, almost every day, closing in on around 15 hours now. While breaking them in and not lacing the top hook, I noticed that the tongue kept "popping out" forward as soon as I would bend my knee, and the tongue would then just stay popped out, offering little support on subsequent flexing forward in the boot.

After a few sessions I tried lacing the top hook, not so tight at first, then gradually tighter. Initially I thought the boots were way too stiff all around as I couldn't bend at all (felt like a ski boot), but at this point I am able to flex them better, however the tongue still pops out and gets stuck in this forward position as before. I can't prevent the tongue from moving any more at this point unless I use the extra lace to go all around the back of the boot and then back around the tongue, at which point we are back to the ski boot feeling.. and I'm pretty sure this isn't right

So there's a lot of room at the top front area of the tongue, which I can manage to some extent, but which certainly isn't helping. What I can't manage at all is a ton of space on the sides of my ankles at the top of the boot. I have no support here until I'm practically leaning into the top side edges of the boot.

The edge of the lower portion of the tongue digs into my ankle bones as well, but this problem was solved with gel pads.

Maybe I'm just used to my old boots that hugged my ankle at the top more. Is this huge amount of space the new thing (judging from what I have read about Edea boots...maybe Synergy tried something similar??), or is this simply not the right boot for me?

Is it that my ankles just need to get stronger and maybe I'll get used to having this much space around the ankles as some skaters have suggested?

The rest of the fit isn't as bad but might be getting worse. The first several sessions, I felt like my ankle was really locked in, but now I feel like I can't lock it in as much and I am feeling a small amount of lift, even after tightening multiple times throughout the session.

What's more concerning to me is that I'm noticing my foot moving sideways in the boot some now as well. I'm not sure if this is a separate problem or related to the tongue issue, but it is not inspiring a lot of confidence. Additionally this sideways movement is causing some pain on the sides of my heels as they are being pressed up against the corners of the boots.

Perhaps I wasn't stressing the boot enough and didn't notice these other things initially.

Spacing on the back of the ankle against the collar seems ok, and my feet aren't going numb anymore in this size 7.5W, so it has something going for it..

How much time do I give these to see if they conform better, or if I might adjust to them?

Is there another boot I should try for my foot profile? I'm willing to try anything to find something that works! I've read a few posts on here that suggest a Risport might be worth checking out. I have a relatively high arch if that narrows it down. Let me know what else I can tell you that helps.

Thanks!

 

[Ic3Rabbit]

I have a narrow ankle but the rest of my foot is fairly wide.

I skated on custom Harlicks for a long time but they never really fit properly. They were always too narrow and my feet just went numb after a while. They have since broken down some time ago, and my feet seem to have changed a bit since I got them so many years ago. One option was to repair them and get them widened out, but I decided to try something different as I didn't love the overall fit, aside from the heel possibly. Enter the Jackson Synergy boots.

I have been skating on the Synergy boots for a couple weeks now, almost every day, closing in on around 15 hours now. While breaking them in and not lacing the top hook, I noticed that the tongue kept "popping out" forward as soon as I would bend my knee, and the tongue would then just stay popped out, offering little support on subsequent flexing forward in the boot.

After a few sessions I tried lacing the top hook, not so tight at first, then gradually tighter. Initially I thought the boots were way too stiff all around as I couldn't bend at all (felt like a ski boot), but at this point I am able to flex them better, however the tongue still pops out and gets stuck in this forward position as before. I can't prevent the tongue from moving any more at this point unless I use the extra lace to go all around the back of the boot and then back around the tongue, at which point we are back to the ski boot feeling.. and I'm pretty sure this isn't right

So there's a lot of room at the top front area of the tongue, which I can manage to some extent, but which certainly isn't helping. What I can't manage at all is a ton of space on the sides of my ankles at the top of the boot. I have no support here until I'm practically leaning into the top side edges of the boot.

The edge of the lower portion of the tongue digs into my ankle bones as well, but this problem was solved with gel pads.

Maybe I'm just used to my old boots that hugged my ankle at the top more. Is this huge amount of space the new thing (judging from what I have read about Edea boots...maybe Synergy tried something similar??), or is this simply not the right boot for me?

Is it that my ankles just need to get stronger and maybe I'll get used to having this much space around the ankles as some skaters have suggested?

The rest of the fit isn't as bad but might be getting worse. The first several sessions, I felt like my ankle was really locked in, but now I feel like I can't lock it in as much and I am feeling a small amount of lift, even after tightening multiple times throughout the session.

What's more concerning to me is that I'm noticing my foot moving sideways in the boot some now as well. I'm not sure if this is a separate problem or related to the tongue issue, but it is not inspiring a lot of confidence. Additionally this sideways movement is causing some pain on the sides of my heels as they are being pressed up against the corners of the boots.

Perhaps I wasn't stressing the boot enough and didn't notice these other things initially.

Spacing on the back of the ankle against the collar seems ok, and my feet aren't going numb anymore in this size 7.5W, so it has something going for it..

How much time do I give these to see if they conform better, or if I might adjust to them?

Is there another boot I should try for my foot profile? I'm willing to try anything to find something that works! I've read a few posts on here that suggest a Risport might be worth checking out. I have a relatively high arch if that narrows it down. Let me know what else I can tell you that helps.
bulk them up some as well.

Riedell and Graf are the two I would look at if you want a different brand and profile. But honestly, if you were properly and professionally fit, your feet should not be having these issues.

Good luck!

 

[isk8rboi]

I was professionally fit. If I remember correctly, the ankle spacing seemed to be mostly ok after molding and the first time lacing up in the shop (which is generally when the tongue is in a more sane position against my ankle) but I did not get to skate in them immediately nor did I try putting too much stress or flexing all that much on them while at the shop (I really should know better to test this right away).

Also did part of your response get cut off in the quote? I see "bulk them up some as well." inside the end of the quote, just want to make sure I'm not missing any of your advice!

Thanks for the reply.

 

[Ic3Rabbit]

I was professionally fit. If I remember correctly, the ankle spacing seemed to be mostly ok after molding and the first time lacing up in the shop (which is generally when the tongue is in a more sane position against my ankle) but I did not get to skate in them immediately nor did I try putting too much stress or flexing all that much on them while at the shop (I really should know better to test this right away).

Also did part of your response get cut off in the quote? I see "bulk them up some as well." inside the end of the quote, just want to make sure I'm not missing any of your advice!

Thanks for the reply.

No, never said anything about bulking anything up

 

[MCsAngel2]

If you have space in between the tongue and the sides of the boots, then you need a wider width boot (they should have measured you for width). This would have been an issue for me as my width is EE but since I already needed semi customs for that width, I also got extra wide tongues, so that popping out doesn't happen.

 

[tstop4me]

I have been skating on the Synergy boots for a couple weeks now, almost every day, closing in on around 15 hours now. While breaking them in and not lacing the top hook, I noticed that the tongue kept "popping out" forward as soon as I would bend my knee, and the tongue would then just stay popped out, offering little support on subsequent flexing forward in the boot.

After a few sessions I tried lacing the top hook, not so tight at first, then gradually tighter. Initially I thought the boots were way too stiff all around as I couldn't bend at all (felt like a ski boot), but at this point I am able to flex them better, however the tongue still pops out and gets stuck in this forward position as before. I can't prevent the tongue from moving any more at this point unless I use the extra lace to go all around the back of the boot and then back around the tongue, at which point we are back to the ski boot feeling.. and I'm pretty sure this isn't right

I was professionally fit. If I remember correctly, the ankle spacing seemed to be mostly ok after molding and the first time lacing up in the shop (which is generally when the tongue is in a more sane position against my ankle) but I did not get to skate in them immediately nor did I try putting too much stress or flexing all that much on them while at the shop (I really should know better to test this right away).

* Hi OP. Before you conclude that you need to chuck your boots and start over, I would encourage you to hang on for a while. I am currently breaking in a new pair of Jacksons, not a model in the new Synergy series, but a model in the traditional 5000 series, the Supreme (formerly Elite) 5362, in black suede leather (I'm male). I'm having similar problems. What my boot has in common with yours is the Supreme tongue. And I think that's where the root cause lies (at least you should investigate further before taking the drastic step of chucking your new boots). I don't know whether the tongues are identical in all respects (e.g., I don't know whether the Synergy series uses synthetic material instead of leather for the tongue base), but they are at least closely similar. I'll share with you my experiences so far. They may be helpful to you.

* My current (old) Jacksons are the Elite 2952, also in black suede leather. With one exception, they are very similar to the new model. Yet the old model was one of the easiest I had with regard to break-in; whereas, the new model is one of the hardest. The one exception is the tongue. The old model has a simple leather tongue base lined with sponge foam rubber. The new model has a leather tongue base with molded ridges on the front and is lined with felt. The new tongue is much stiffer and less compliant than the old.

* During heat molding, the tech laced the boots up all the way, including the top hooks. When the boots cooled after heat molding, I tried out some knee-and-ankle bends. No problems. Similar to your experience.

* I don't order blades until I'm satisfied the boots are OK. So I waited two weeks for blades to come in, and had them mounted. When I got home, I laced the boots (skipping the top row of hooks). I did some knee-and-ankle bends and ran into exactly the same problem as you: the top of the tongue popped forward and stayed that way. I laced them all the way up (including the top row of hooks), and still had the same problem.

* The main body of a Jackson boot has an intermediate thermoplastic layer. When the boot is baked in an oven, the thermoplastic layer softens. The warm boot is then shaped to the foot. When the boot cools, the thermoplastic layer sets and retains the molded shape.

* The old tongue for sure had no intermediate thermoplastic layer, and my suspicion is that the new tongue doesn't either. So when the boot is baked, the boot, including the tongue, softens to mold to the foot. But once the boot cools and you unlace and pull your foot out, the tongue does not retain the molded shape. As I mentioned before, the old tongue was lined with sponge foam rubber and was fairly compliant. But the new tongue requires considerable break-in, especially to conform to the ankle joint.

* The new tongue needs to be laced carefully. The front of the tongue has a series of molded ridges that act as lace guides. When you lace up, you need to make sure that the laces cross in the channels between the ridges: use a fingernail to push the laces into a channel before you pull them tight. If the laces cross over a ridge, they will later slip off the ridge and become too loose. This holds for both the eyelets and the hooks.

* I break-in new boots off-ice as much as possible: through a series of knee-and-ankle bends of increasing strength. E.g., lace up (top row of hooks not used at first), do 20 mild bends, re-lace, repeat 4 more times for a total of 100 mild bends; followed by a similar series of medium bends; and finally followed by a similar series of strong bends. After all that, I still had problems with the top of the tongue popping forward and staying there; and there was considerable slack at the top of the laces, even though they had been initially pulled tight.

* This is how I've solved the problem for now. When I've finished lacing through the last row of eyelets (below the flex notches), I twist the laces around themselves 3 times to hold the tension (typically when you are tying shoes, you twist the laces around themselves once before you tie the bow; here I do 3 twists). There are four rows of hooks (I'll call the bottom row the first row and the top row the fourth row). I lace up the first, second, and third rows (leaving off the fourth row for now). Instead of tying the bow at the third row, I lace back down to the second row, twist the laces around themselves twice and tie the bow. So far this secures the tongue at the third row when I do my bends; without strangulation. I've skated on ice for only a total of an hour so far (spread out over three 20-minute sessions; I prefer slow break-ins). So far, so good.

* Note: Jackson uses small hooks, so you need to be careful when double lacing (easy to snag a lace even with single lacing). I use a different brand of laces which are thinner and firmer than Jackson laces (and they are also waxed). That makes it easier to double lace. It looks like your laces have a lot of excess length, so you should be able to try this OK. My laces (same length as the Jackson laces that came with the boots) are barely long enough to handle three rows of hooks. I've ordered longer laces to eventually handle four rows. Properly broken-in, the tongue should wrap around your ankle and shin, and not pop out. I'll find out when I get the longer laces.

* Good Luck!

 

[tstop4me]

f you have space in between the tongue and the sides of the boots, then you need a wider width boot (they should have measured you for width). This would have been an issue for me as my width is EE but since I already needed semi customs for that width, I also got extra wide tongues, so that popping out doesn't happen.

The scenario you describe applies to a skater with a wide foot and a corresponding wide ankle (and portion of the lower leg above the ankle) being fitted into too narrow a boot. But this scenario does not match that presented by the OP:

I have a narrow ankle but the rest of my foot is fairly wide.

<<Emphasis added.>> The OP mentioned that their old pair of Harlicks felt too narrow, but made no specific mention of the tongue popping out. With the new pair of Synergys, the OP is reporting the opposite: the boot does not feel too narrow (and perhaps may be getting too loose in spots), but the tongue is popping out.

 

[treblemakerem]

I have a narrow ankle but the rest of my foot is fairly wide.

I skated on custom Harlicks for a long time but they never really fit properly. They were always too narrow and my feet just went numb after a while. They have since broken down some time ago, and my feet seem to have changed a bit since I got them so many years ago. One option was to repair them and get them widened out, but I decided to try something different as I didn't love the overall fit, aside from the heel possibly. Enter the Jackson Synergy boots.

I have been skating on the Synergy boots for a couple weeks now, almost every day, closing in on around 15 hours now. While breaking them in and not lacing the top hook, I noticed that the tongue kept "popping out" forward as soon as I would bend my knee, and the tongue would then just stay popped out, offering little support on subsequent flexing forward in the boot.

After a few sessions I tried lacing the top hook, not so tight at first, then gradually tighter. Initially I thought the boots were way too stiff all around as I couldn't bend at all (felt like a ski boot), but at this point I am able to flex them better, however the tongue still pops out and gets stuck in this forward position as before. I can't prevent the tongue from moving any more at this point unless I use the extra lace to go all around the back of the boot and then back around the tongue, at which point we are back to the ski boot feeling.. and I'm pretty sure this isn't right

So there's a lot of room at the top front area of the tongue, which I can manage to some extent, but which certainly isn't helping. What I can't manage at all is a ton of space on the sides of my ankles at the top of the boot. I have no support here until I'm practically leaning into the top side edges of the boot.

The edge of the lower portion of the tongue digs into my ankle bones as well, but this problem was solved with gel pads.

Maybe I'm just used to my old boots that hugged my ankle at the top more. Is this huge amount of space the new thing (judging from what I have read about Edea boots...maybe Synergy tried something similar??), or is this simply not the right boot for me?

Is it that my ankles just need to get stronger and maybe I'll get used to having this much space around the ankles as some skaters have suggested?

The rest of the fit isn't as bad but might be getting worse. The first several sessions, I felt like my ankle was really locked in, but now I feel like I can't lock it in as much and I am feeling a small amount of lift, even after tightening multiple times throughout the session.

What's more concerning to me is that I'm noticing my foot moving sideways in the boot some now as well. I'm not sure if this is a separate problem or related to the tongue issue, but it is not inspiring a lot of confidence. Additionally this sideways movement is causing some pain on the sides of my heels as they are being pressed up against the corners of the boots.

Perhaps I wasn't stressing the boot enough and didn't notice these other things initially.

Spacing on the back of the ankle against the collar seems ok, and my feet aren't going numb anymore in this size 7.5W, so it has something going for it..

How much time do I give these to see if they conform better, or if I might adjust to them?

Is there another boot I should try for my foot profile? I'm willing to try anything to find something that works! I've read a few posts on here that suggest a Risport might be worth checking out. I have a relatively high arch if that narrows it down. Let me know what else I can tell you that helps.

Thanks!

I had a similar problem breaking in my new Jacksons. (I have the supreme not the synergy) One thing that helped me was switching out the Jackson laces for nylon laces. I'm able to pull them tighter and still be able to bend. My tech also offered to put some wool on the tongue to fill up some space but he didn't have it in stock so I couldn't do it that day. I didn't end up having that done anyway because with the new laces and added bunga pads the problem seemed to go away.

 

[tstop4me]

I had a similar problem breaking in my new Jacksons. (I have the supreme not the synergy) One thing that helped me was switching out the Jackson laces for nylon laces. I'm able to pull them tighter and still be able to bend. My tech also offered to put some wool on the tongue to fill up some space but he didn't have it in stock so I couldn't do it that day. I didn't end up having that done anyway because with the new laces and added bunga pads the problem seemed to go away.

<<Emphasis added.>> Just want to check which model Supreme you have. Is it the current generation? If not, does it have the 6K tongue ?

Jackson 6000 Tongue

Jackson’s 6K TongueWhile the evolution of boots the last 10 years has happened at an exponential pace, tongue design has been slow to move. That being said, we are here to show you change.Tongues may seem insignificant, but they are an essential part of your skates. Keeping tongue consistency...

jacksonultima.com

Thanks.

 

[mskater93]

I don't wear Jacksons, but when I am breaking in a new pair of boots, I don't lace them all the way up until they are broken in. To "teach" the tongue to stay put, I use an elastic hair tie on the top hooks. It stretches so I can bend but holds the tongue in place until it holds the proper shape.

 

[treblemakerem]

<<Emphasis added.>> Just want to check which model Supreme you have. Is it the current generation? If not, does it have the 6K tongue ?

Jackson 6000 Tongue

Jackson’s 6K TongueWhile the evolution of boots the last 10 years has happened at an exponential pace, tongue design has been slow to move. That being said, we are here to show you change.Tongues may seem insignificant, but they are an essential part of your skates. Keeping tongue consistency...

jacksonultima.com

Thanks.

Yes I have the new tongue with the ridges on it.

 

[tstop4me]

Yes I have the new tongue with the ridges on it.

Thanks. Glad to hear that you eventually did break the 6K tongue in.

 

[tstop4me]

* This is how I've solved the problem for now. When I've finished lacing through the last row of eyelets (below the flex notches), I twist the laces around themselves 3 times to hold the tension (typically when you are tying shoes, you twist the laces around themselves once before you tie the bow; here I do 3 twists). There are four rows of hooks (I'll call the bottom row the first row and the top row the fourth row). I lace up the first, second, and third rows (leaving off the fourth row for now). Instead of tying the bow at the third row, I lace back down to the second row, twist the laces around themselves twice and tie the bow. So far this secures the tongue at the third row when I do my bends; without strangulation. I've skated on ice for only a total of an hour so far (spread out over three 20-minute sessions; I prefer slow break-ins). So far, so good.

* Note: Jackson uses small hooks, so you need to be careful when double lacing (easy to snag a lace even with single lacing). I use a different brand of laces which are thinner and firmer than Jackson laces (and they are also waxed). That makes it easier to double lace. It looks like your laces have a lot of excess length, so you should be able to try this OK. My laces (same length as the Jackson laces that came with the boots) are barely long enough to handle three rows of hooks. I've ordered longer laces to eventually handle four rows. Properly broken-in, the tongue should wrap around your ankle and shin, and not pop out. I'll find out when I get the longer laces.

Update: My longer laces came in today. The laces supplied by Jackson are 134". They are on the short side, just barely long enough for all four hooks with regular lacing. I ordered the Derby Laces EDGE laces in 146" (https://derbylaces.com/product-category/derby-laces/waxed-edge-laces-4-5mm/). This allows me to lace up to the fourth row, double lace back down to the third row, twist the laces around themselves twice, tie the bow, and tie a half-knot at each end.

Off-ice, I've done 100 mild bends, re-laced around the hooks, and followed by 100 medium bends. The tongues have stayed put, no popping and no strangulation. I'm going to do some more medium bends before doing deep bends. But I'm finally confident that I can break-in the tongues.