FFKKR appealed to ISU over inconsistency in judging at the GP stages

[flanker]

Satoko had URs, but no other mistakes. One possible UR not called.
Can you name any other error? No
What about Liza's uncalled UR?

No matter how much you ignore it she had edge problems with her Lz. If what Russians did for two weeks was called than she deserved to be called too.

As for the claiming "Liza did costly mistakes", she did, and yet her tech score in the free program was still 8 points higher than Satoko's (with uncalled edge, so the difference should be higher). Satoko has beaten Liza only on PCS, which is very subjective criterion. Liza is no components queen, I'm aware of that, but people still mistake components for so called "artistry" (while considering programs with Celine Dion's music "artistic").

 

[Mishaminion]

No matter how much you ignore it she had edge problems with her Lz. If what Russians did for two weeks was called than she deserved to be called too.

As for the claiming "Liza did costly mistakes", she did, and yet her tech score in the free program was still 8 points higher than Satoko's (with uncalled edge, so the difference should be higher). Satoko has beaten Liza only on PCS, which is very subjective criterion. Liza is no components queen, I'm aware of that, but people still mistake components for so called "artistry" (while considering programs with Celine Dion's music "artistic").

Satoko has superior steps and spins, which is less subjective in scoring than PCS.

I do think Satoko's skating skills are far superior to Liza's, very few fans would say Liza has great SS, they are average to be fair.

Yes artistry is subjective and in all honesty I prefer watching Liza to watching Satoko. Liza has sass and I like it!

But the perception of artistry seemed to favour Satoko, so much so that her fans still think she doesn't get enough PCS and should get even more.

No idea what you brought up Celine Dion programs, Satoko certainly didnt skate to that.

 

[flanker]

Satoko has superior steps and spins, which is less subjective in scoring than PCS.

I do think Satoko's skating skills are far superior to Liza's, very few fans would say Liza has great SS, they are average to be fair.

Yes artistry is subjective and in all honesty I prefer watching Liza to watching Satoko. Liza has sass and I like it!

But the perception of artistry seemed to favour Satoko, so much so that her fans still think she doesn't get enough PCS and should get even more.

Steps and spins are the valued in TES, so even if I agree that she overcomes Liza in this, still it doesn't change the fact that her overal tech score was much lower than Liza's. Even if Satoko is better in components, I don't like when subjective components cover such a big gap in tech score. And the gap in tech should have been even higher, because while the tech calls towards russian ladies came sometimes to the absurd dimensions, the same people who did that (allegedly strict, but fair) were pretty lenient when it came to the mistakes of the others.

There was a claim that it didn't affect the final placements, but this is the example when it did, in my view.

No idea what you brought up Celine Dion programs, Satoko certainly didnt skate to that.

I didn't say she did.

 

[Mathman]

Even if Satoko is better in components, I don't like when subjective components cover such a big gap in tech score. And the gap in tech should have been even higher, because while the tech calls towards russian ladies came sometimes to the absurd dimensions ...

At Cup of China, Tuktamysheva got 0 adverse calls from the tech panel. Miyahara got 2 <s in the SP and 3 in the LP. Maybe it should have been 4, but I don't see how this comparison between Tuktamysheva and Miyahara supports the claim about tech panels picking on Russians unfairly. (Maybe they do, but this is not an example of it.)

As for program components, to me, Miyahara 's scores are about right. Tuktamysheva should get higher in performance and in musical interpretation (though not in SS and TR). [I mean, Elizaveta should get higher than she gets, not higher than Miyahara.]

Setting aside this particular competition, the problem again is with the scoring system. Whatever a skater gets in SS is just repeated 4 more times for the other components.

I for one do not complain that the subjective components Composition, Interpretation and Performance count for something. It is only 30% of the total score. And after all, it is this aspect of figure skating (not the jumping) that distinguishes it from other sports.

 

[Mishaminion]

Steps and spins are the valued in TES, so even if I agree that she overcomes Liza in this, still it doesn't change the fact that her overal tech score was much lower than Liza's. Even if Satoko is better in components, I don't like when subjective components cover such a big gap in tech score. And the gap in tech should have been even higher, because while the tech calls towards russian ladies came sometimes to the absurd dimensions, the same people who did that (allegedly strict, but fair) were pretty lenient when it came to the mistakes of the others.

There was a claim that it didn't affect the final placements, but this is the example when it did, in my view.

Personal feelings and opinions. Some people think PCS should be worth more, same with spins and steps and do not like jumps being the biggest point grabbers.
Satoko is an example of the kind of skater many of these people champion when it comes to the PCS vs jumps debate...she has everything apart from jumps, hers are just downright poor.

Satoko has had the benefit of uncalled URs for years, but used to be none of them were called at all and then the tend became some of them. The judging for her is pretty much on par to how it usually is, and do not misrepresent my words, I agree it is not fair, but it is not some kind of recently cooked up conspiracy to deny Liza a silver.

The same as Bradie's silver at SA wasn't a conspiracy but she did benefit from home scoring. Nobody is denying that, but do Russians benefit from home scoring? Sure, they do.

 

[Mishaminion]

At Cup of China, Tuktamysheva got 0 adverse calls from the tech panel. Miyahara got 2 <s in the SP and 3 in the LP. Maybe it should have been 4, but I don't see how this comparison between Tuktamysheva and Miyahara supports the claim about tech panels picking on Russians unfairly. (Maybe they do, but this is not an example of it.)

As for program components, to me, Miyahara 's scores are about right. Tuktamysheva should get higher in performance and in musical interpretation (though not in SS and TR).

Setting aside this particular competition, the problem again is with the scoring system. Whatever a skater gets in SS is just repeated 4 more times for the other components.

And the possible UR from Liza is still being ignored by those arguing Satoko had an uncalled UR and obsessing over it in painfully repetitive detail.

 

[flanker]

Personal feelings and opinions. Some people think PCS should be worth more, same with spins and steps and do not like jumps being the biggest point grabbers.
Satoko is an example of the kind of skater many of these people champion when it comes to the PCS vs jumps debate...she has everything apart from jumps, hers are just downright poor.

Satoko has had the benefit of uncalled URs for years, but used to be none of them were called at all and then the tend became some of them. The judging for her is pretty much on par to how it usually is, and do not misrepresent my words, I agree it is not fair, but it is not some kind of recently cooked up conspiracy to deny Liza a silver.

The same as Bradie's silver at SA wasn't a conspiracy but she did benefit from home scoring. Nobody is denying that, but do Russians benefit from home scoring? Sure, they do.

I wouldn't mind higher score for components, if there was a system how to make it more objective. In the situation where there are skaters who receive high PCS no matter how good or bad their skate was (Gabby Daleman is No. 1 in this ranking and Satoko is somewhere close, which is not her fault), I don't think I am prepared for rising the influence of PCS. And I understand that tehre are people who see it different, we've read complains about how high e.g. Alina's componets were in Grenoble, but that just doments how debatable components are. I would agree with the idea Daniil had some time ago, that TES and PCS should not differ for more than some proportion.

 

[Autumn Leaves]

Satoko received 15 points in PCS more than Liza. 5 in the short, 10 in the long, if I remember correctly. That‘s the value of a quad combo. While I love Satoko and she deserves higher PCS than Liza, the judging did seem to favor her. Especially as there were questionable edges and more URs and while being so strict with Anna’s edges. Yes, Liza did costly mistakes in the short, but she landed her 2 triple axels in the long. How many times last year we saw Rika doing poorly in the short and then winning with her 3As in the long? Generally, the 3As are powerful weapon when the opponents don’t have quads. That’s why many people have the feeling that Liza was underscored and Satoko was overscored. These calls affected the placements and the spot at the final.

 

[Mishaminion]

Satoko received 15 points in PCS more than Liza. 5 in the short, 10 in the long, if I remember correctly. That‘s the value of a quad combo. While I love Satoko and she deserves higher PCS than Liza, the judging did seem to favor her. Especially as there were questionable edges and more URs and while being so strict with Anna’s edges. Yes, Liza did costly mistakes in the short, but she landed her 2 triple axels in the long. How many times last year we saw Rika doing poorly in the short and then winning with her 3As in the long? Generally, the 3As are powerful weapon when the opponents don’t have quads. That’s why many people have the feeling that Liza was underscored and Satoko was overscored. These calls affected the placements and the spot at the final.

Rika is overall a more well rounded skater than Liza, did 3A-3T last season plus at least one 3-3

Liza's FS was a season's best and one of her highest in general, despite a stumble and possibly an uncalled UR of her own.

Her SP although a mess got 65 which objectively was a little high because she lost so many points it suggests had she been clean she would have 76+ which is nowhere near what she's got for her short recently.

Satako I think deserves her high PCS scores, especially this season. She is not really my cup of tea usually but even I have to say her FS this year is exquisite and I actually liked it. But her jumps...can't stand them but she has got away with them for years. It really wasn't just at CoC

 

[flanker]

Rika is overall a more well rounded skater than Liza, did 3A-3T last season plus at least one 3-3

She is probably "more well rounded", but how much it does in score, that is the question worth of the prince of Denmark.

 

[lariko]

Oh, those Russians... someone should have cleared they throat and said, “Ahem, comrades, aren’t you forgetting that Samarin is yet to skate?”

 

[Mishaminion]

Oh, those Russians... someone should have cleared they throat and said, “Ahem, comrades, aren’t you forgetting that Samarin is yet to skate?”

That PCS was... lol

 

[Mishaminion]

She is probably "more well rounded", but how much it does in score, that is the question worth of the prince of Denmark.

Well Rika with a downgrade on one of her 3As (plus -5 GOE) vs a clean Liza with just one 3A was something we saw at 2018 GPF and Rika was 6 points ahead in FS and won gold.

 

[kwanatic]

How many times last year we saw Rika doing poorly in the short and then winning with her 3As in the long? Generally, the 3As are powerful weapon when the opponents don’t have quads. That’s why many people have the feeling that Liza was underscored and Satoko was overscored. These calls affected the placements and the spot at the final.

Rika's overall skating is well-rounded and much stronger than Liza's which means it's easier for her to stack points across the board (in both TES and PCS) whereas Liza's real strength is only in the jumps portion of her technical score. She loses points in levels and GOE for her non-jump elements which is why despite nailing all of her jumps she has a hard time catching up. Satoko lost points on her jumps but, literally, everything else she did was of very high quality. She was able to basically match the amount of +GOE Liza earned from a clean program and surpass her in PCS which gave her the edge.

This is why it's better to be a well-rounded skater. When one aspect of your skating is struggling you can still earn points by doing everything else well. If you are only strong at one thing, when that thing fails you struggle to earn points elsewhere.

 

[Mishaminion]

Rika's overall skating is well-rounded and much stronger than Liza's which means it's easier for her to stack points across the board (in both TES and PCS) whereas Liza's real strength is only in the jumps portion of her technical score. She loses points in levels and GOE for her non-jump elements which is why despite nailing all of her jumps she has a hard time catching up. Satoko lost points on her jumps but, literally, everything else she did was of very high quality. She was able to basically match the amount of +GOE Liza earned from a clean program and surpass her in PCS which gave her the edge.

This is why it's better to be a well-rounded skater. When one aspect of your skating is struggling you can still earn points by doing everything else well. If you are only strong at one thing, when that thing fails you struggle to earn points elsewhere.

Satoko is not a well rounded skater though, she has very poor jumps. Which have either never been dinged or not dinged enough.

I just find it amusing that some people think this is a new thing with Satako and it really isn't.

 

[icybear]

Well judging from the men's scoring today, I think it is safe for the Russian under rotations and dodgy edges to come full out into the light without being scrutinized. Maybe Evgenia can put back 3 lutzes into her programs today.

 

[Mishaminion]

Well judging from the men's scoring today, I think it is safe for the Russian under rotations and dodgy edges to come full out into the light without being scrutinized. Maybe Evgenia can put back 3 lutzes into her programs today.

We will see what the Ladies SP brings

I still have my fingers crossed for fair judging all round

 

[Tolstoj]

Well judging from the men's scoring today, I think it is safe for the Russian under rotations and dodgy edges to come full out into the light without being scrutinized. Maybe Evgenia can put back 3 lutzes into her programs today.

For the most part judging was fair in my opinion.

BUT

Samarin 8.82 on Skating Skills.

His SP is a 40 on components at best to me, everything above is nonsense, especially when you fall (and i've always been an advocate of "fall should penalize performance too!", or was that part of the choreography too?

He got 9s here with PCS above Aliev and Vasijevs which is just wrong and it's not even an opinion.

 

[surimi]

Yes, Liza did costly mistakes in the short, but she landed her 2 triple axels in the long. How many times last year we saw Rika doing poorly in the short and then winning with her 3As in the long?

The one occasion that comes to my mind first when you mention this, is Worlds. Rika made a mistake in the SP, and she didn't podium even with 3As eventhough her FS was 2nd best. Not unlike Liza here. So it's not like 3As save a skater every time.

 

[Mishaminion]

Yes and Zhenya beat her overall for Bronze anyway