Interesting interview with Kiira Korpi about coaching and training

[el henry]

It's in the interview with David Lease (listen from 20:50): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7RcSsvsWrQI

Thank you.

I do not know yet if I will listen to the interview (for me, it is like tweets and other extraneous materials, not relevant to my opinion of what was said in this article linked in the OP) and of course I would need to listen to the entire interview for context and tone, which I’m not sure I have time for

But I appreciate at least knowing the reference :thumbsup:

 

[[email protected]]

Thank you.

I do not know yet if I will listen to the interview (for me, it is like tweets and other extraneous materials, not relevant to my opinion of what was said in this article linked in the OP) and of course I would need to listen to the entire interview for context and tone, which I’m not sure I have time for

But I appreciate at least knowing the reference :thumbsup:

Well, I pointed out that my comment related to her interview with Dave - I even wrote "Kiira" and "Dave". And knowing your background in law I am either surprised or not surprised at all (depending on which side you represent) to hear that context and tone are important when a person says that sex with underage girls is normal. The tone was like she was smiling and giggling.

 

[rain]

I am frankly disgusted by 90% posts in this thread. It is the very same thing as when Katelyn Ohashi spoke out about body shaming in gymnastics - "oh it doesn't happen! She just... wasn't lucky! It's not the same for everyone!"
Sure it's not. Kiira has never said that every single athlete is abused by every single coach. Her issue is, abuse in coaching is accepted as a training method. Which it is not and never should be. She mentioned few counties in one short interview and for some reason, some people here are adamant SHE'S ONLY TALKING ABOUT ETERI AND ETERI IS PERFECT. Because Finland doesn't matter (even though they are synchro powerhouse, which means they actually produce MORE elite-level skaters than aby other country, including Russia).
Why on earth would you think that you are more knowledgeable than a retired, adult athlete who spent her entire youth dealing with this very system that you probably will never see from the inside? Ah, yes, BECAUSE SHE HATES RUSSIA. Apparently. So it's a good idea to disregard every single issue she's talked about as non-existent.

I think the responses here really underline why it's important that she and others continue to speak up. It's case in point of how normalized people have made totally abnormal and abusive things. On here, mostly from people intent on obsessively defending Russia and its coaches, even though in this article and in her interview with Dave Lease she only spends a fraction of the time specifically talking about anything to do with Russia. I think people need to take an honest look at why they feel so defensive about this. Mocking her for being inarticulate (I think she was incredibly articulate) when English isn't her first language, and maybe not even her second or third, the good old "she's just jealous" nonsense that gets trotted out every time someone says something someone doesn't want to hear, calling her a mediocre skater and implying that this disqualifies her from having a valid viewpoint, and cherry picking comments, then twisting them to make her into your super villain. It's all so over the top and irrational, one has to wonder what's behind it. Hitting a nerve or two, perhaps?

I started this thread, but had abandoned it to the people denigrating Kiira since they seem to have so much time on their hands to post again and again and again ad nauseum. But I thought her conversation with Lease was so interesting I'd chime in again. I thought her comments about the American system and coaching were very insightful. I would have been really curious to hear more of her take on the U.S. gymnastics situation, especially since, while I love The Skating Lesson, I want to throw something at my screen every time Dave starts in on his hero worship of the abusive Karolyis. And I was also really interested in her mentioning her own father and his old-style coaching of the women hockey players in Finland. I thought it was really interesting how she talked about how long it took her to gain perspective even on her own experiences as a skater, and the situations she put up with and saw as normal, because everyone around her pretended that they were.

I think Kiira is wonderful and hope she continues to speak out. I hope she does end up giving training for coaches, as well, focussing on positive coaching methods. Contrary to what seems to be accepted opinion (and boy, has that been an unwelcome revelation to me), nobody NEEDS an abusive coach. Nobody deserves one either.

 

[el henry]

but people (mostly nord americans from what I can see here) are still focusing only on Russia....

I am sorry, but this is simply untrue.

In this thread, as far as I remember, no one who identified as being from North America said anything about Eteri. Many posters who identify from elsewhere brought her into the conversation in an attempt to derail it, and posters who identified as North American did respond.:yes:

Thousands of comments and pages on how Eteri is starving children ....

Thousands and thousands of comments? Where? In this thread? I would appreciate it if you would cite those posts so I could respond to the thousands and thousands of comments.

And if you can't cite to those posts, unfortunately I will be forced to conclude they do not exist.

 

[el henry]

Well, I pointed out that my comment related to her interview with Dave - I even wrote "Kiira" and "Dave". And knowing your background in law I am either surprised or not surprised at all (depending on which side you represent) to hear that context and tone are important when a person says that sex with underage girls is normal. The tone was like she was smiling and giggling.

Thank you for responding.

I have watched about ten minutes of the interview. I hate to say I don’t think we can discuss this any more because that I think we are watching two different videos. How anyone could watch that and say that Kiira was laughing *about* underage relations, it’s just beyond me.

I hope you won’t take it ill if I do not respond further, because our views about Kiira was talking about and what she said could not be more diametrically opposed, I don’t think I would change your mind, and I know you would not change mine.

In the same way that there is no argument, no snark, no “everyone’s always picking on us and we need to defend ourselves” post that will make me believe Kiira in the written interview was talking about one country in particular, one coach in particular. The evidence is just not there. (At least I think I have finally convinced folks that I’m not jealous or trembling in fear of whom, Morisi? )

I wish you joy watching the skaters that bring you joy

 

[el henry]

I think the responses here really underline why it's important that she and others continue to speak up. It's case in point of how normalized people have made totally abnormal and abusive things. Mostly from people intent on obsessively defending Russia and its coaches, even though in this article and in her interview with Dave Lease she only spends a fraction of the time specifically talking about anything to do with Russia. I think people need to take an honest look at why they feel so defensive about this. Mocking her for being inarticulate (I think she was incredibly articulate) when English isn't her first language, and maybe not even her second or third, the good old "she's just jealous" nonsense that gets trotted out every time someone says something someone doesn't want to hear, calling her a mediocre skater and implying that this disqualifies her from having a valid viewpoint, and cherry picking comments, then twisting them to make her into your super villain. It's all so over the top and irrational, one has to wonder what's behind it. Hitting a nerve or two, perhaps?

I started this thread, but had abandoned it to the people denigrating Kiira since they seem to have so much time on their hands to post again and again and again ad nauseum. But I thought her conversation with Lease was so interesting I'd chime in again. I thought her comments about the American system and coaching were very insightful. I would have been really curious to hear more of her take on the U.S. gymnastics situation, especially since, while I love The Skating Lesson, I want to throw something at my screen every time Dave starts in on his hero worship of the abusive Karolyis. And I was also really interested in her mentioning her own father and his old-style coaching of the women hockey players in Finland. I thought it was really interesting how she talked about how long it took her to gain perspective even on her own experiences as a skater, and the situations she put up with and saw as normal, because everyone around her pretended that they were.

I think Kiira is wonderful and hope she continues to speak out. I hope she does end up giving training for coaches, as well, focussing on positive coaching methods. Contrary to what seems to be accepted opinion (and boy, has that been an unwelcome revelation to me), nobody NEEDS an abusive coach. Nobody deserves one either.

I have only watched ten minutes of the conversation, but I think we can have that conversation without responding to any attempts to "shoot the messenger".

I do not follow gymnastics, so I would not necessarily have followed that conversation, but I do agree with you about Dave Lease's attitude. I remember when he was advocating a "fight to the death" camp for figure skaters a la the Karolyis, because look how successful the Karolyi camp was. I was :eeking: and :shocked: at that, and even as more of the Nasser scandal came out, Dave doubled down on well, the camp wasn't the issue. Uh, yeah Dave, it was.

But Kiira is right that in skating, the coaches are looked upon as all powerful. So if they scream or yell or humiliate or even worse, it is seen as the price to pay. Could that possibly be changed by a healthy kind of cooperation? Where a skater doesn't see one coach as the only way forward, where more than one coaching style is experienced?

But with the kind of trust needed in figure skating, how would that happen? Do they address that in the TSL interview?

Sometime when I have a spare hour, I'll need to watch the whole video. That won't be tonight.

 

[moonvine]

Valter Virtanen

Someone whom I admire more than 90% of the gold medalists in any sport:yes:

I love him, but didn't he retire?

 

[moonvine]

I am sorry, but this is simply untrue.

In this thread, as far as I remember, no one who identified as being from North America said anything about Eteri. Many posters who identify from elsewhere brought her into the conversation in an attempt to derail it, and posters who identified as North American did respond.:yes:




Thousands and thousands of comments? Where? In this thread? I would appreciate it if you would cite those posts so I could respond to the thousands and thousands of comments.

And if you can't cite to those posts, unfortunately I will be forced to conclude they do not exist.

The only place I've ever seen thousands of comments is in Hanyu fan threads, of which a new one seems to have to be made every year.

 

[el henry]

I love him, but didn't he retire?

The skating doctor competed at, of course, Finlandia

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_OmSIvbTno

 

[moonvine]

The skating doctor competed at, of course, Finlandia

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_OmSIvbTno

Thank you! I am so glad he didn't retire!

 

[WeakAnkles]

The skating doctor competed at, of course, Finlandia

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_OmSIvbTno

Two sleeves!

He must have paid off his medical school debt!

:yay:

 

[moonvine]

The skating doctor competed at, of course, Finlandia

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_OmSIvbTno

Long may he skate! But needed more stuffies.

 

[Lana05]

The only place I've ever seen thousands of comments is in Hanyu fan threads, of which a new one seems to have to be made every year.

Oh really? Hanyu's fanfest for new skating season 135.235 views and 1.222 replies at he moment while a thread for RUSSIAN LADIES for new season have 1,5 milliom views and nearly 12 thousands of replies. So, yes, Russian coaches are so defended because they are so much discussed here.

 

[rollerblade]

Oh c'mon. Hanyu fan thread is for his fans. There's no back and forth debates between the fans and anti-fans. Of course it's going to have significantly less traffic than a thread that can't seem to escape controversy.

How many of the posters on the Russian Ladies thread even visit each Russian skater fanfest threads?

There's a reason ISU created that b.s. award show. Controversy creates drama, and drama means ratings.

 

[Tolstoj]

I watched this a bit late, but i have to say i don't share the reactions many netizens had.

First of all this is her point of view, you can agree or disagree, it's okay to have different opinion on things.

Second keep in mind that Kiira is a former skater, her thoughts comes from an inside perspective, and she knows many things that usually happen in the background that we don't.

Then i don't think her view is necessarily wrong: when you compete at a very top level, you have to make big compromises that completely change your life, and at a certain point it is worth asking if all of this is worth it or not: following some super strict diets to be under 30-40 kg, not eating, or drinking water to slow down puberty, accepting certain behaviours from the coaches,...

I absolutely agree that we should make more researches on how safe it is practicing quads at a very young age, dealing with all those injuries and still competing because you have to, how that will affect the life and growth of that person especially once his/her career is over, cause we have seen many cases of retired skaters being depressed, dealing with eating disorders, etc.

On the rest i do think that discipline is absolutely needed to achieve certain results, that said i do agree with her that it should be more about skaters, they should have the power to take their own decisions, while coaches should be there to help them achieving the results rather than controlling everything and the skater only being their mindless product.

 

[Flutzel]

Well, I'm sure she's not wrong that some coaches are terrible, but the big problem here is that it's a hard thing to fix a lot of this from the outside. Sure, you can try to advocate for general societal changes and it certainly doesn't help to push an attitude that anything is fine in the name of diligence. But in the end, the people who need the most protection (athletes too young to decide or judge for themselves what is too much) usually already technically have protectors: their parents. And I think we can guess that if parents have no problem with a terrifying coach hounding their child past the point of reason, these kids' childhood will be effed up whether their parents push them to become pro skaters or professional classical musicians or whatever other stereotypical child prodigy careers you can think of that the parents might find prestigious. Hell, mostly we can only speculate about who actually is on the list of monster coaches, too.

In the end, what's the proposed idea for fans here? Stop watching figure skating? Because boycott is pretty much the only way fans can influence a fed in a country (especially one they might not even live in) - that, and social media pressure, but going to war for someone on twitter against their own coach might not actually be in their best interest when they haven't even asked for help yet.

 

[el henry]

I know about this story because Kiira retweeted it, although I since I read the NY Times, I may have seen it anyway. The articles briefly mentions Gracie Gold

US Distance runner Mary Cain about the abusive coaching she endured as a young athlete with the world famous Nike Team coached by Alberto Salazar:

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/07/opinion/nike-running-mary-cain.html

"When I first arrived, an all-male Nike staff became convinced that in order for me to get better, I had to become thinner and thinner and thinner. This Nike team was the top running program in the country and yet we had no certified sports psychologist, there was no certified nutritionist. "
....
"Alberto was constantly trying to get me to lose weight. He created an arbitrary number of 114 pounds [Mary Cain is 5'7"] and would usually weigh me in front of my teammates and publicly shame if I wasn’t hitting weight."
.....
"But here’s a biology lesson I learned the hard way. When young women are forced to push themselves beyond what they are capable of at their given age, they are at risk for developing RED-S [Syndrome]."

(Transcript excerpts from the video from https://www.letsrun.com/news/2019/1...atment-while-part-of-the-nike-oregon-project/)

Kara Goucher said about training with Alberto Salazar: “When you’re training in a program like this, you’re constantly reminded how lucky you are to be there, how anyone would want to be there, and it’s this weird feeling of, ‘Well, then, I can’t leave it. Who am I without it?’ Goucher said. 'When someone proposes something you don’t want to do, whether it’s weight loss or drugs, you wonder, ‘Is this what it takes? Maybe it is, and I don’t want to have regrets.’ Your careers are so short. You are desperate.' "

This coaching cannot happen. In skating, in running, anywhere. In any country, at any time.:noshake:

 

[ancientpeas]

The skating doctor competed at, of course, Finlandia

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_OmSIvbTno

I have so much admiration for him.

 

[Matilda]

Two sleeves!

He must have paid off his medical school debt!

:yay:

Med school (like all higher ed) is free in Finland

 

[WeakAnkles]

Med school (like all higher ed) is free in Finland

No wonder Scandinavians consistently are the happiest people in the world (and Finland was ranked #1 this year. Another reason to love the Finns. ).