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I didn't know he was injured, thank you for the information. I would much rather see him take off and heal rather than skate through injury.
Male Junior Worlds medallists - and where are they now?
- Thread starter CrazyKittenLady
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I didn't know he was injured, thank you for the information. I would much rather see him take off and heal rather than skate through injury.
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By the way, do we know already if this year's medallists are all turning senior next season? Ilia obviously is, but what about the other two?
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i haven't watched him recently i didn't like his skating skills and felt he was rough. I didn't like him in juniors and felt he was lucky to get away with a medal as other faltered. The Russians I like are Kolyada, Aliev and Ignatov, all of which I find more pleasing to watch than Savosin (and Samarin for instance)Ok, sorry for going a bit, but Savosin rough compared to the more polished Russians? You must be watching a different skater than I am. Imo, from what I saw this season at the Russian Cup Savosin had amazingly clean movements, good speed and his spins (especially the camel) are a thing of beauty. I would definitely consider his general skating skills and presentation above the average Russian man. What he is lacking is stability in his jumps and a coach with influence in the fed.
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Here is a table with the JWC podiums... (i had posted the entire table but it wouldn't let me post it since the flags count for an emoji and we are allowed only 40)
2008-09,2011-2013 editions... none of the medalists at JWC ever won a Senior world medal (that doesn't mean they were not successful as seniors...)
And looking ONLY at world junior champions : who got a medal in seniors ? Only Yuzuru Hanyu and Shoma Uno.
I didn't include the recent years as that work was done by @CrazyKittenLady
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I think the big issue with junior men turning senior is the consistency of their quads. As a junior, having messy or few quads is fine. You can still win a lot of the major titles. But usually when junior men turn senior, their already inconsistent jumps become even more inconsistent because they usually hit a growth spurt around 16/17/18, they're trying to chuck in as many quads as possible, they often get injured, and there's more pressure on them. Almost every single skater in that list is still brilliant, they just really struggle with the big jumps.
I don't know for certain but I see Mikhail moving senior because there's not a ton of competition in Kazakhstan and Tat's junior ineligible next season.
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growth spurt is not always bad... some skaters, like Conrad Orzel have mentioned that being taller and stronger has allowed him to get his quads... he is not stable, but that's another story. Nic Nadeau, silver at JWC, is huge, and had gorgeous jumps including quad toe, quad loop and even a quad lutz... he had an ankle injury that nixed a lot of his jumping ability (no more lutz for instance)... and has moved to pairs now. I think the growth spurt is mostly seen in men with the very precocious quad jumpers like Gogolev or Nguyen for instance. Did Roman have quads before he grew tall? Not sure. It's been said and shown that growth spurts are not felt the same at all for men versus women.
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Nothing stops Shadorov, but Tsuboi doesn’t really have much wiggle room, unless he is happy to live in Kagiyama’s thick shadow.
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It seems to be the whole story. That least that’s what Russian commentators say all the time, big guys can’t do each and every program they skate well. And, well, even smaller Russians are big. Mozalev is such an oddball, tbh, because he is very distinctively a late bloomer/slow gainer in the country that basically worships explosive early starters. But at least he seems to go wider, not taller… Gumennik was the scariest, probably… and well, the growth spurts are injury, because Samarin’s back injuries were due to a missed late growth spurt…
One thing that surprised me last year at Skate America was how much bigger Zhou is than Chen…and, well, Chen is a marvel of stability, while Zhou is a rollercoaster
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I do think that smaller can certainly be an advantage for skaters, but not the whole story. Kévin Aymoz is a Shoma -sized, but consistency is not Kevin's middle name and therefore he is not doing as well as I would love to see him do.
None of the current "top" American men appear to have had a Gogolev style growth spurt. Jason, Nathan, Vincent, Tomoki, Andrew T. grew slowly, which I guess is beneficial. Tomoki is, I believe, the shortest of all the American men, almost Kevin-sized, certainly shorter than Nathan. Vincent is probably the tallest of the "Top five or six", and he's only 5'9".
None of the current "top" American men appear to have had a Gogolev style growth spurt. Jason, Nathan, Vincent, Tomoki, Andrew T. grew slowly, which I guess is beneficial. Tomoki is, I believe, the shortest of all the American men, almost Kevin-sized, certainly shorter than Nathan. Vincent is probably the tallest of the "Top five or six", and he's only 5'9".
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probably not so much a factor in Canada as except for Nguyen and Gogolev who were "prodigies", most our men do not jump quads too early and could be considered late bloomers...... look at our current junior champion... (paradis, no quad) and wesley, just started his quads after he grew... same with orzel.. pretty much the same with phan... orzel and phan are probably taller than most russians... the problem with the Russsians is that they do the quads very young and then lose them, just like Gogolev and Nguyen. We cannot blame them, there is a lot of depth in Russia and they need their jumps... Samarin doesn't have good technique, so that will not help.
Also : If we look at the table I posted, in a 10 years span, there is no RUS JWC,,, 5 guys won medals only out of 30. The last one, Pitkeev, trained with Eteri... and got his back messed up. The only one to achieve brief success at the senior WC was Gachinsky with a bronze. (He then got Silver at Euros, and slowly vanished not being able to get out much of Russia for bigger events). The only one with a long career was Voronov... In more recent years, there are way more Russians succeeding at JWC. My hypothesis : they are pushing the envelope to match the women's results. They train quads earlier. They have issues when the growth spurt comes. Of course the change of age will not affect men as much, but I hope that it does send a clear message : athletes are precious and they are children whose health matters. Hopefully coaches will preserve their talented young men and lead them to a long career. Slower trajectory but better long term success would be amazing.
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5.9 is (except for Messing) extremely short if we consider the flock of giants fed with maple syrup Canada has produced lately.
Shorter is obviously an advantage for stability. Nathan is only 5'5 or 5'6 I believe.
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I totally agree. I think he's improved so much over the past three years in particular, I love to watch him, he's got wonderful lines. He's possibly just a bit of a late developer when it comes to bringing all his skillz together.Ok, sorry for going a bit
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Or Yuzu's, Shoma's, Kazuki's, Kao's, Shun's, Sota's... he's kind of screwed with the depth in senior men. I think he is pretty much guaranteed at least one GP spot because of his JWorlds medal which will help.
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He did seem much improved last season.Ok, sorry for going a bit
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Well, I mean that Kagiyama specifically takes up the slot of the 'young hope of Japanese skating'. Fingers crossed for Tomono and Shun btw. Tomono is starting to break out, I hope, so...
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This is not hypothetical. Russian boys jump quads earlier, and the statistic showed it. It goes with the idea of accumulating microtrauma to prevent higher trauma. My mom told me yesterday that Samsonov is back on ice, and he stretched out in the leg already. Given Pitkeev's harrowing history... bad sign. Semenenko who jumped quads by 13 and Lutfullin (at Mishin's camp) also have high instances of trauma. Yes, Russians want their new Plushenko, but Plushenko jumped 4T and that's it as far as I can tell (please, nobody tell me to watch Plushenko…). Big guys just don't do multi-quad programs with stability. So, they keep looking for the smallest boy pre-pub, and then body takes over and you get a pair skater. I mean, Mozalev had a stamina of a horse to get through choreo, enjoyed glide/SS like no other man in Russia, and his 4T was beautiful, but no, he needed a 4F on top of it. With a predictable result. So, yeah, funnily enough, Russian's men only hope is bias shift to a holistic program with less reward for multi-quads, particularly when they are questionable on take off/landing. Otherwise you gonna have Kondratyuk who does who-knows-what in the air and at landing & Semenenko's judge-bowing routine). Or they have to be okay with the goal of putting 2 men in top 10, no podium hopes.
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i was trying to remain optimistic/open
but i guess, as you pointed out, things are the way they are.... You know. Aliev was beautiful in juniors.... the mess started when they try to add more quads too...
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Well, that’s why they always sent Aliev and Samarin together. Aliev had a lutz, Samarin had a quad, together you got 4Lzi was trying to remain optimistic/open
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Well it's the same (or actually worse) story with Erokhov. Junior World Champion with a nice and stable 4T and 4S and then they made him pound that stupid quad flip until he fractured his picking foot three! times in a row. And pooof... his international senior career was gone before it had ever begun.i was trying to remain optimistic/open
(He's still skating very beautifully in domestic events, just sayin.)I am a huge fan of quads and multi-quad skaters. For me, it's one of the most exciting things about men's figure skating. But when it comes to a choice between quads and health, I'd rather see the guys skate a few senior seasons with just the baby quads to get used to their adult bodies rather than go all in in their first senior season and aim for the four quad FP. The skaters themselves might disagree though. But that strategy worked pretty well for e.g. Kagiyama.
