Mikhail Kolyada wins first national title | Page 2 | Golden Skate

Mikhail Kolyada wins first national title

TGee

Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 17, 2016
Wait Europeans and Worlds, then we can discuss Kolyada (whom I like a lot).
As for moving to USA or Canada: the best athlete now in USA is Chen, who is not ethnically speaking American, but Chinese, Asian, as Hanyu, Shoma, Boyang Jin and, yes, Chan too. Having those knees ("Mongolian") means a lot. Russians, as all the other Europeans and Americans, are at a disadvantage, unless they have some Asian blood in them (cfr Denis Ten too).
Chen's trainers now are as much as Russian as Mishin.
As for ice dance: the last 2 years have been dominated (rightly or not, this is another question) by French, trained by French and French- Canadian coaches. Not really a Nordamerican first position. Shibs are trained by a Russian (and they too are not ethnically American, as for knee), and Chock/Bates are trained by another Russian. Etc. And the greatest of them all Virtue/Moir learned how to skate at their best with two Russians.
So, if the Russian ice dance skaters are not on top, is as much an issue with themselves as an issue with coaches. How much the first, how much the second ? Time and results will tell. I'm sure if Bobrova/Soloviev would have competed at Worlds, quite probably they'd have arrived in 4th-5th position, ahead of many Nordamerican couples, judging for their continuous improvement and results at Euros (they were third after the SD, but second after the FD). And by the way ice dance is so political, results reflect only in part the TRUE value of skaters and coaches.

Wow....and not in a nice way.:palmf:

rosy14, I have taken exception to your "genetics is destiny' view of the world on other threads [e.g. on the need for theraputic exemptions], but this is fairly mindboggling for me as a North American from a multicultural/multiethnic country. Your comments are so out there, that I'd like to ignore them. But some things cannot be left to pass...

First, neither Canada nor the United States are genetically western European, let alone English.

In Canada, the indigenous peoples refer to themselves as First Nations and Inuit. Inuit are northern asian genetically, and First Nations a more complex non-European genetic pool. All of us who come from peoples who immigrated in the last 500 years or so understand this.

French North America is not more recent than English settlements....in fact, French and English colonisation started in the same era except for the fishing settlements of Newfoundland [English, Irish and Basque] that go back nearly five hundred years but were not originally year round. Your assertion that Quebecois or other French in Canada are not North American are the kind of comments that lead to demonstrations of public outrage here. [And there are also the Spanish settlements in what is now the US...]

Asian peoples, particularly Chinese, have been in North America since the opening of the Pacific colonies. While these colonies and settlements only became part of the US and Canada in the mid 19th Century, they existed as separate colonies linked in the Pacific trade well before that. So, while there are families of Asian background that are recent immigrants, many families go back 9 or 10 generations or more. It is deeply objectionable to say that they are not North American.

Russia itself is a multi-ethnic country, and the Russian coaches that have come to North America find themselves in communities with Russians and other slavic peoples that are also long established. Certainly, post Soviet migration of coaching talent, not only from Russia, but also Ukraine and other former eastern bloc countries, has had a profound impact on North American skating. But there has been a mixing, both in terms of transmitting methods into North America, but picking up approaches. Zoueva for one has talked about how her Canadian experience, where she was obliged to work with skaters of all abilities, has made her a coach who can respond to skaters' needs and talents, rather than just doing well when the best are referred to her.

I understand from your other posts that you are in a Western European country and have a medical background. I sincerely believe that you don't intend to offend. But you need to know that this kind of eugenic discussion is not welcome, and seems to be written in ignorance of North American reality.
 

vorravorra

Record Breaker
Joined
Apr 9, 2016
I think one definite advantage East Asian men have for singles is that they are generally smaller. Russian and other European juniors keep growing too tall for jumping easily - Mikhail is lucky he has short genes. As for "Mongolian" knees I am not sure what those are?.. Nina Mozer's "theory" was that Asians have more fast-twitch muscle fibres which is just plain untrue.
 

vorravorra

Record Breaker
Joined
Apr 9, 2016
The question is then why a lack of soft knees doesn't disadvantage female skaters to any obvious degree. Asians are not exactly winning everything in ladies' singles although the Japanese in particular are doing well, but that may have a lot to do with the popularity of the sport in a particular country. It's easier to find talent if you have a lot of skaters to choose from.
 

Hyena

Tous les whiskys
Medalist
Joined
Jan 9, 2014
Entire post

TGee, thank you so much. My mind was reeling trying to decide where to start in responding to that post but you hit everything. The one thing I would add is that genetic research is showing that each of us, even those of us who think our ethnic background is relatively straightforward, have complex and diverse ancestries. So I place very little stock in sweeping generalizations about people based solely on their perceived race/ethnicity.

---

How did this thread drift so far so fast? Congratulations to Misha on his deserved win!! I wasn't able to watch live and wasn't expecting his and his coach's tears at the end. He does have excellent technique to my eyes (even without "Asian knees" :unsure:).
 

cathlen

Team Gorgeous Cacti!
Record Breaker
Joined
May 2, 2015
Country
Poland
Men are not the weakest in Russian FS. I feel now it's more Ice Dance. I think Mika can now give Javi a stron motivation to skate clean. I mean, I really wouldn't be suprised, if Javi reigning in Europe will end, if he won't skate cleanly. Mika skating is about quality after all :)
 

Khoai

Match Penalty
Joined
Apr 3, 2015
Let's accept this fact, Asian bodies are thinner, smaller so it's easier for them to rotate very fast.

Mr Jin and Mr Chen do benefit from their thin and small bodies as you notice that their super fast rotation help.
But Mr Hanyu's jumps are more powerful than these guys, his jumps have huge ice coverage (especially his edge jumps) so it has to to with the technique as well.

Then, there's Mr. Fernandez who can land 4T, 4S and 4Lo (he will not put it in competition I assume) quite beautifully. So it's wrong to say these quads can only be generated consistently by Asian bodies.

I would say Mr Kolyada and Mr Samohin should brush up their basics and their mentality, then their quads will be ok.
 

vorravorra

Record Breaker
Joined
Apr 9, 2016
I am sorry but I don't agree - I can name a few male skaters curently competing with much better 3A than Voronov - Hanyu and Han Yan are the first ones that come to my mind.
I like Mikhail but give him to skate Yuzuru's, Patrick's or Fernandez's LP and you will have an epic meltdown. There is a reason why these three are considered to be the current best male skaters in the world - they have the technical stuff (all go for at least 3 quads and 2 triple axels in the LP) and very difficult programs. Mikhail is fun, talented, young and with a potential great future in this sport ahead of him but at this point his programs are a bit empty and he struggles with consistency.
Mikhail's programs are hardly empty, they have a lot of choreography, whatever you might think of it. Someone in the NHK thread even called his LP "a long choreo sequence". Maybe if he truly skated from jump to jump he'd have more energy left at the end of his LP. But you are absolutely right that he won't be able to skate say Yuzuru's programs - he currently has enough trouble skating his own. He has a lot of work to do on his stamina to get to that level of difficulty.
 

Warwick360

Medalist
Joined
Dec 3, 2014
It is, but that doesn't mean it completely sucks. There are many interesting skaters out there! Mikhail has huge jumps, nice spins and charming personality! I hope he will have more successful years to come! :love:

Also, his skating is so much more entertaining that Kovtun. I'm not trying to be negative about Kovtun but when he was competitive at the top level, I just couldn't follow his program when jumps weren't working. I can't say the same about Kolyada. Everything he does, looks so polished. I really hope he does the same in the next Nationals. Especially the next nationals.:hap93:
 

vorravorra

Record Breaker
Joined
Apr 9, 2016
Also, his skating is so much more entertaining that Kovtun. I'm not trying to be negative about Kovtun but when he was competitive at the top level, I just couldn't follow his program when jumps weren't working. I can't say the same about Kolyada. Everything he does, looks so polished. I really hope he does the same in the next Nationals. Especially the next nationals.:hap93:
Now this is something his choreographer definitely deserves credit for. The programs themselves on the other hand are rather... controversial.
 
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