Skate Canada to allow any 2 athletes to compete together in ice dance, pairs
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Moir, Weaver back gender-expansive ice dance, pairs teams
TORONTO (AP) — Canadian ice dancer Kaitlyn Weaver says, as an LGBTQ person, her sport has never fully reflected her lived experience.
apnews.com
From Scott Moir:
If traditionalists think that two women can’t do lifts, I’m eager to prove them wrong. Or two men together can’t be graceful in this era, I’m eager to prove them wrong. Because I don’t believe that. I see an even playing field and a fantastic opportunity to get more people involved in figure skating. And that’s always something I’m passionate about.”
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On the contrary, this is exactly what's happening in artistic swimming, you can have only 9 (8+1 alternate which can't even stay at olympic village) athletes maximum by country at olympics, so the athletes from the duet have to make the team as well. Usually, athletes from the solo/duet make the team as well in normal years (except for some top athletes which focuse on solo/duet during non-olympic years). Yet some top athletes (Linda Cerutti from Italy, Marta Fiedina from Ukraine) still compete all the routines (except mixed duets) in normal years, which represents 8 different routines, and if you count the preliminaries/finals, they can swim up to 16 times a week during competitionsHmm.. I don't think this would work well cause it's a bit like 5x5 and 3x3 Basketball (and I'm sure there are other examples). You have to train a lot as the duo and a lot with the ones in the team and at this level there won't be lots of athletes being able to do both.
They are just not Japanese figure skaters
My respect for Scott Moir just went up 1K%.Moir, Weaver back gender-expansive ice dance, pairs teams
TORONTO (AP) — Canadian ice dancer Kaitlyn Weaver says, as an LGBTQ person, her sport has never fully reflected her lived experience.
From Scott Moir:
If traditionalists think that two women can’t do lifts, I’m eager to prove them wrong. Or two men together can’t be graceful in this era, I’m eager to prove them wrong. Because I don’t believe that. I see an even playing field and a fantastic opportunity to get more people involved in figure skating. And that’s always something I’m passionate about.”
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This is an interesting thought, but I just don't see this happening. There are certain viable changes seemingly underfoot (such as solo ice dance, and same gender partnering in pairs and ice dance). Above all, though, those heading the sport need to be more focused on solving antiquated, lack of opportunity issues with the competitive structure.
If you check the sport's history, it's clear that competitive pairs and ice dance slowly evolved out of the same origins of women being allowed to compete, even if singly in their own separate championship event. Read James R. Hines' 2015 book, Figure Skating in the Formative Years: Singles, Pairs, and the Expanding Role of Women.
Also, this is a article from FiveThirtyEight.com, worth reading:
"Figure Skating Has Always Blurred The Lines Of Gender Segregation | FiveThirtyEight" https://fivethirtyeight.com/feature...re-skating-has-often-blurred-those-lines/amp/
Honestly, ice dance and pairs developed out of similar origins, but on different tracks. We already have a lot of cross-fertilization, with the borrowing of moves among both disciplines, which equally invigorate. There are many wonderful choreographers working in pairs who are former ice dancers. That's been a boon for the pairs discipline. Yet each of these disciplines have different aims, rules, etc. I see no reason to combine them competitively. They are separate and unique.
Pairs is more acrobatic and airbound, with the goal of two skating as one. There's a particular focus on edge work in ice dance, along with grace, musicality, OTT drama, and two skating together but not as focused as pairs is on synchronicity throughout.
It's nice that we get to see ice dancers and pairs skaters performing together in shows. And it's fun checking out adagio skating on YouTube. I don't see any advantageous or logical reason for these two unique disciplines to merge.
I would be more interested in exploration of bringing Fours competitions back (two pairs teams skating together). It was very popular in Canada. Trio skating is also fun and exciting to watch but seen more often in show skating. Johnny Weir famously created and performed a trio number with Denis & Melissa Petrov, many years ago.
Former competitors who loved figures joined together to create their own organization and competitive events, World Figure & Fancy Skating. So there's an endless variety of ways for ice skating to be performed and enjoyed.
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from Weaver
"I was thinking about Timothy and I looked up the rule in the ISU handbook about what defines a 'team'," Weaver remembers. "And the rule, of course, states that a team is made up of a man and a woman, and Timothy is a non-binary athlete. Timothy is at the Olympics and yet this rule states that Timothy should not be at the Olympics and they're there in spite of this rule.
"It just made me think, 'How many people are we missing? How many people don't see themselves represented in our sport and then leave it?'," Weaver adds. "That made me pretty frustrated seeing that Timothy was there in spite of not being within their full identity.
"So we did a lot of research and thought about it on the scale from the grassroots up, not just the elite, and we decided with the unanimous passing from the board to change what the definition of couple or team is, to two skaters."
"The goal is to allow everyone to be able to do what they love to do and not be restricted by gender. That can be for people who don't identify as man or woman, but also who just want to skate with their friend – it doesn't have to be (about a queer person), it can be any story under the sun.
"I think that's really important to point out, because I think some people are afraid of the stories that we might see. That's okay, but I think that there's so much room at the table for everyone to be able to tell their own stories no matter what they are."
"I know Scott Moir is supportive of this rule change as well," Weaver confirms. "He has many solo dance women and these women can skate and they're not able to fully realise their potential because there's not as many young boys that want to skate ice dance right now.
"So I know that he and his partner in coaching, Madison Hubbel are really looking at partnering between women and the stories that women can tell and really diving headfirst into the work. So definitely in Canada, I think we'll see something hopefully soon."
"I was thinking about Timothy and I looked up the rule in the ISU handbook about what defines a 'team'," Weaver remembers. "And the rule, of course, states that a team is made up of a man and a woman, and Timothy is a non-binary athlete. Timothy is at the Olympics and yet this rule states that Timothy should not be at the Olympics and they're there in spite of this rule.
"It just made me think, 'How many people are we missing? How many people don't see themselves represented in our sport and then leave it?'," Weaver adds. "That made me pretty frustrated seeing that Timothy was there in spite of not being within their full identity.
"So we did a lot of research and thought about it on the scale from the grassroots up, not just the elite, and we decided with the unanimous passing from the board to change what the definition of couple or team is, to two skaters."
"The goal is to allow everyone to be able to do what they love to do and not be restricted by gender. That can be for people who don't identify as man or woman, but also who just want to skate with their friend – it doesn't have to be (about a queer person), it can be any story under the sun.
"I think that's really important to point out, because I think some people are afraid of the stories that we might see. That's okay, but I think that there's so much room at the table for everyone to be able to tell their own stories no matter what they are."
"I know Scott Moir is supportive of this rule change as well," Weaver confirms. "He has many solo dance women and these women can skate and they're not able to fully realise their potential because there's not as many young boys that want to skate ice dance right now.
"So I know that he and his partner in coaching, Madison Hubbel are really looking at partnering between women and the stories that women can tell and really diving headfirst into the work. So definitely in Canada, I think we'll see something hopefully soon."
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Let’s agree to disagree. I am always in favour of keeping ear to the ground and searching new ways that express modern world and mindset versus preserving what was by all means possible. That’s just me.
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You and I have touched this topic of merging pairs and ice dance disciplines in another context... I think however, that the vision you expressed is actually more symptomatic of the past than the future. The free dance from 30 years ago didn't have all the leveled elements that ice dance today has. Ice dance continues to evolve far far away from pairs each year... and pairs, though there are more ice dance lifts and the skaters have refined their steps and choreo sequence have jam packed programs to execute, and very few teams nowadays employ the theatrical style we saw with Mishkutenok and Dimitriev to name only these two, which may have been relatively closer to ice dance aesthetics. The pairs programs now have evolved in a way that elements are linked seamlessly into a whole, a very athletic whole. If anything, the openness shown here by Skate Canada in redefining what constitutes a team, will enhance even more the discipline of ice dance. Weaver and Moir are convinced that two women teams (lack of male partners) are exciting and viable to the discipline. I haven't heard Meagan Duhamel or Bruno Marcotte or any pair specialist comment as positively on this evolution... (I'd be happy if someone could provide such feedback if it's available... I just haven't seen it myself). So, in my opinion, ice dance will continue to evolve and flourish and many more athletes will come out specialized in what makes ice dance, ice dance... Pairs will remain pairs : and I suspect that the strength in singles skating in Japan and Korea and the newish team event at the Olympics, may make pairs more popular in Asia, especially with what is happening with Japanese pairs.
So, to conclude, I would argue that ice dance is actually looking to a bright future, independently of pairs... and the vision of the future is actually nixing even more the idea of merging the disciplines together... It's okay to disagree on this... we don't always agree but I enjoy our healthy discussions ! (and I know that you were answering another user, I just had the urge to step in because we were discussing this earlier on).
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Yes, but for me the idea of developing a new duo’s discipline that abandons the MF convention and has more variety in the list of what can be done, while minimizing—yes, impressive—super-dangerous pair elements has higher appeal than seeing dance evolve and pairs die out. I don’t believe in the influx of pairs, independently of nationality because the demands on and demand for the male partner are simply unhealthy from every possible pov. Ice dance is by far more flexible and allows everyone to potentially participate.
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If we were to ban everything that is unhealthy, demanding and dangerous in figure skating, there would be none of it left... The number of ice dancers with knee injuries is quite important... even without jumps, throws and twists... Are you willing to tell Trusova to stop doing quads because it may be dangerous? Back to the new duos, I do agree though that sky is the limit in what could be achieved if rules start getting looser and looser...
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Mechanically, there is a serious difference in a person using their own body to create a jump and being handled by someone far larger, particularly in pairs with maxed out age and physical differences between the partners. The lifts in ID and pairs are already getting comparable in complexity, despite no lift above the head (yet) in dance, but twists and throws are where things can go so horrendously wrong… I dunno, I love throw, they are crazy, but I am happy to see them sacrificed to agent a flourishing, dynamic and welcoming field where I can see every talent maximized, every configuration that can potentially win… speaking of Trusova, even in Russia now you can see that the rules re-jiggles are putting an end to maximizing TES. Obviously, they still try to outjump each-other (Ugozhaev jumping 4Lz was one of those moments) but there is no longer Trusova in the running. Scherbakova model is clearly winning. Ultra-c, yes, but less of them and not at the expense of everything else. In Russia, unlike internationally, this season SS 4 was a far rarer sight on tableau than quads. So, I think, the rules sort of already sort of starting to bring the danger down, making sure skater is alive by the final pose and can breathe…
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Of course, none of us will always agree. As I said, it's much more important "to express the modern world," and get up to speed with the 21st century by focusing on improving the competitive structure of figure skating. More opportunities to develop through competing are needed. Creating depth in the disciplines of major federations without having enough opportunities for skaters to compete, is a huge weakness in this sport.
I'm not sure how combining ice dance and pairs into one competitive discipline "expresses the modern world." These two disciplines parallel each other in how they developed, and there is cross-fertilization between them, which invigorates both. Yet, they have separate aims, rules, and characteristics. Trying to combine them to streamline competitive disciplines doesn't make much sense to me. By destroying both, what else is being created and for what purpose exactly?
Pairs is more acrobatic and focused on aesthetically making two into one. Ice dance rises directly out of two people tracing patterns on the ice with a focus on incorporating the rhythms, flair, and other aesthetics of ballroom dance. The focus for each discipline should be on pushing boundaries to achieve the highest expression of their separate aims. That goal alone is complicated and difficult enough for each discipline. Merging the two is more of a fun, casual, entertainment pursuit we sometimes see in show skating, which mainly arises out of convenience. Plus, the necessity of effectively utilizing available cast members.
We are already seeing solo ice dance as a separate discipline. And SC will be experimenting with couples of same gender competing in pairs and ice dance. I wish fours pair competitions would come back too. The focus seems to be on expanding disciplines and opportunities, as opposed to consolidating separate disciplines.
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Moir, Weaver back gender-expansive ice dance, pairs teams
TORONTO (AP) — Canadian ice dancer Kaitlyn Weaver says, as an LGBTQ person, her sport has never fully reflected her lived experience.
From Scott Moir:
If traditionalists think that two women can’t do lifts, I’m eager to prove them wrong. Or two men together can’t be graceful in this era, I’m eager to prove them wrong. Because I don’t believe that. I see an even playing field and a fantastic opportunity to get more people involved in figure skating. And that’s always something I’m passionate about.”
I mean it's possible! (Also, love Scott!)
Another interesting aspect of this is that girls or boys who lack the technical abilities of singles disciplines due to their physicality can pursue these disclipines too. Like if a young girl loves figure skating but then has a huge growth spurt, her career isn't suddenly over as either a singles or a pairs skater - she could be a lifter. Same with a guy with a slight physique who can't do triple axels/quads in order to be viable in singles, but has the ability to be lifted or thrown.
I don't know if many teams will form from this, but I hope some do go for it, and are able to pursue elite careers (at least domestically) where they would otherwise have limitations competing in singles or being lifted/the lifter due to their physique.
This will of course, however, require even more commitment/innovation/care on the part of each partner and the coaching team because it really is quite untreaded territory from a training standpoint (then again, so is a quad axel which we never thought to be manageable!).
For pairs, I pretty much agree with you in that the moves that rely on extreme size difference in elite pairs are already out of reach for most skaters and will be even more so for female-female teams even where there is a significant size difference. I think a low-lift variation of pair skating would be of value especially for two girls or two women who want to compete together, against other similar teams.
For ice dance, those kinds of moves are not the heart of the discipline. Technically, I can see no reason why it should not be gender neutral/allow for multiple different gender configurations. The ballroom dances that the patterns are based on and that the rhythm dance themes have been based on historically have been created with male-female teams in mind, but there is currently no requirement to replicate those images in free dances, and even the rhythm dance has been becoming less ballroom oriented in recent years, already to the dismay of traditionalists. But if Canada can blaze the way for gender neutral ice dance and the ISU follows, I expect that the RD requirements will continue to be less based on ballroom themes and traditional established patterns. There just need to be other ways to keep the technical edgework and the rhythmic interpretation on an even playing field for all teams irrespective of gender composition.
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What's wrong with ballroom themes or compulsory patterns for any-gender teams? It's not intrinsically more difficult for them physically and it doesn't have to be heteronormative (see Gabby/Gui Beijing short dance or any of the sibling teams).
Whatever the argument is for or against keeping pattern dances, this shouldn't be part of it.
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Skate Canada has officially changed definition of a team to “a team consists of two skaters”
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This article addresses not only the change in Canadian rules for same gender teams, but possible changes in the ISU rules, with quotes and insights from Gabriella Papadakis, Guillluame Cizéron, Madison Hubbell, Scott Moir, and judge Shawn Restatt, among others.
slate.com
In February, about six months after Canada announced its intention to allow same-gender skating teams, the ISU held a meeting for athletes, coaches, and officials that’s gone mostly unreported. At the meeting, set to discuss the upcoming season’s competitive requirements, Kaitlyn Weaver raised her hand. Weaver, an openly queer three-time World medalist and Canadian champion who sits on the committee that pioneered Skate Canada’s new rule, asked whether the ISU had plans to expand Canada’s updated gender rules internationally. As she put it, “Do you have any plans going forward to have this be a part of the conversation globally?”
The response caught Weaver by surprise. ISU technical committee chair Shawn Rettstatt responded that yes, there were plans forming to propose a wider rule-change in favor of same-sex pairs in competition. If the issue passes an internal review and becomes an official proposal, it’ll likely be voted on next year at the ISU’s International Congress in Las Vegas, a sprawling biennial event billed as an opportunity to make “major decisions about the future and direction of the ISU.”
A Once Unthinkable Revolution Is Coming to Figure Skating. Is the Sport—and the World—Ready?
Some of its biggest stars think so.
In February, about six months after Canada announced its intention to allow same-gender skating teams, the ISU held a meeting for athletes, coaches, and officials that’s gone mostly unreported. At the meeting, set to discuss the upcoming season’s competitive requirements, Kaitlyn Weaver raised her hand. Weaver, an openly queer three-time World medalist and Canadian champion who sits on the committee that pioneered Skate Canada’s new rule, asked whether the ISU had plans to expand Canada’s updated gender rules internationally. As she put it, “Do you have any plans going forward to have this be a part of the conversation globally?”
The response caught Weaver by surprise. ISU technical committee chair Shawn Rettstatt responded that yes, there were plans forming to propose a wider rule-change in favor of same-sex pairs in competition. If the issue passes an internal review and becomes an official proposal, it’ll likely be voted on next year at the ISU’s International Congress in Las Vegas, a sprawling biennial event billed as an opportunity to make “major decisions about the future and direction of the ISU.”
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