The gymnastics thread

[dorispulaski]

also with all the supposed injuries the us girls have, they can be (juiced) take coritizone shots and be legitate to help the chances at gold for a team medal.
it is okay as long as the federation, ioc, head of gymastics knows about it ahead of time. so let the Cheating begins.

This seems highly unlikely.

For one thing, if US gymnasts were cheating-i.e. feigning injuries to get cortisone shots-.you would have seen Peshek and Memmel competing in all their usual event in the qualifying round. In fact, they only both competed on the uneven bars--if they were doing it for advantage, I would at least expect to see Memmel on vault and one or the other of them on beam and floor so that the worst score could be dropped.

Not to say that a US athlete or team has never cheated, but this is a truly bad example and borders on the libelous.

 

[sillylionlove]

If you read the article of the interview...he didn't just point out China. It said that it has been well know in Romania, Russia, China and some other countries, that they falsify documents to change the age. He said that they had the ability to do so and often did so. Remember, he did coach Romania way back when.

Here are some quotes from the article which can be found on nbcolympics.com

Karolyi is originally from Romania, and he says falsifying documents is a common practice in totalitarian regimes such as Romania, Russia and other former Soviet bloc nations.....

What kind of slap in the face is this?" he asked. "They are 12, 14 years old, max. And they line them up for the world ... and having the government back them. .....

"Since they forced an age limit, it has gotten worse and worse. The FIG is running away from the age problem. They set an age limit and now they can't control it." .....

The solution, he said, is to not have any age limit. He believes if a gymnast is good enough to earn a spot at the Olympics or world championships, that athlete deserves to go. He said some juniors today are just as proficient as the age-eligble competitors. Nastia Liukin, for example, would certainly have made the squad for the Athens Games four years ago had she not been 14.....

It was very interesting and I suggest that if you get a chance to read it. He was also on television talking about this...I think it was during primetime lineup of the Olympics with Bob Costas the other night. I think that many sports are struggling with this same type of issue right now. Children train earlier and harder now then they ever did before in sports.I think that this will be an issue for a long time to come.

 

[sillylionlove]

OOPS....Congrats to the men for winning the bronze medal in the team competition last night. They really rocked it. No one expected them to do that well.

 

[Tinymavy15]

Dizzy I agree about the age of the Chinese ladies team. I couldn't believe it when the NBC commentator said that the girls had to be 16 years old to compete. How can they get away with that? It is so obvious most of those girls are under the required age.

tell me about it. I know that people from that part of the world are smaller and slighter by nature, but some of these girls cannot be any more than 12. Shawn Johnson looks pretty tiny herself, but I trust the United States to follow the rules.

also, the score do not really seem to match the performances. Shawn's flawless balance beam routine scored not much better than her teammates who didn't look half as comfortable.

 

[Medusa]

The risk in getting hurt in sports exists for ALL ages who participate.

Oh yes, the risk is there for all ages. But an 11 year old (or 4 to 6 year old, sometimes the heavy training starts back then) kid doesn't have a choice. An 18 year old does.

Well said, Dizzy. All the USA gymnastics commentators and figure skating commentators have gone on record stating they feel that all gymnastics and figure skating championships should be open to all ages with the belief that if these young athletes from all around the world have the skill and desire to compete, they should be able to do so. They are training these difficult elements every day in their practices and competing them at their Nationals and on the Grand Prix circuit, so what's the difference from doing it at Worlds and Olympics? The risk in getting hurt in sports exists for ALL ages who participate. The advanced skaters can rely on their experience and wisdom while the younger skaters can rely on their carefree exuberance and fearlessness, so there are advantages to competing "young" and "old."

YES! Let's go and support the abuse and exploitation of young girls - so that they can do the most important thing in the world: win the medals. Fantastic idea. The Chinese girls are taken away from their homes at 5 to 11, they have no rights, zero protection - they are at everyone's mercy. If the Chinese go through so much trouble to build little soldier-athletes - then they should be at least rewarded with a change of the rules, so they can train their soldiers to peak even earlier and send them to international competitions long before all these pesky natural body changes set in.

And yes, I know that these athletes would train anyway. Yes, I know that there are inconsistent age rules that make no sense at all. But that is no reason at all to encourage even more abuse, even more unnatural training at a young age.

And I am not just talking about China, I am talking about other countries with organised high-performance sports, I am talking about overambitious parents in the US and in Europe, whose children are just as unprotected and at their parents' and coach's mercy as the baby athletes in China, North Korea etc. are. I am talking about a tiny little, completely insignificant thing called human rights. Children's rights. And these governments and sports organisations, and some parents and coaches are often ignoring these rights. The human rights movement worked for years and years to ensure that there are laws against child labour, laws to protect the child from abuse and exploitation - and we throw it all out of the window - for medals.

You can't vote before you are 18, you can't get drunk before you are 16, you can't drive a car and you can't smoke before you are 18, you have limited control about the money you earn (depending on the age) - but apparently people think that you can represent your country (and sometimes make a political statement through that) in the biggest sports event ever, that you can make the decision to ruin your body and health before you can even read, that you can represent and endorse companies, despite the fact that legally it's not the baby athlete's decision to make.

Gotta love this world. A world where you can be a superstar and a champion, and at the same time, little more than a slave.

 

[Spun Silver]

Great time to be a night owl

I stayed up till almost 6 am watching the men's gymnastics finals and guess I'll do that tonight too. The US team was incredible. What a story - the way they overcame the loss of their stars and medaled when nobody expected them too. They handed in some exciting routines. I just wish the coverage were more consistent - we only saw a few of the supposedly fabulous Chinese routines and only one or two of the Japanese and German. I could do with a lot more gymnastics and a lot less bikini ball, softball, etc.

As for the age restrictions - surely the point is to protect children from being used by their prestige-hungry governments. Obviously the flexible and probably starved young bodies of children training far away from their families CAN do amazing things - the question is what harm it does to body and spirit of the children. What might be ethical in a society where at least the children's families have a real choice and where there's a concept of children's rights is less so if the families are forced by poverty to surrender their kids and the kids are then completely under the control of their coaches (who are under the thumb of the government). Obviously too the Chinese government is getting away with breaking the age rules just because it can. Just like Russia is getting away with murdering Georgia. That doesn't make it right.

The Times had a column calling women's gymnastics child abuse but I think that argument is much weaker when the athletes are older. http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/09/opinion/09bissinger.html?scp=10&sq=gymnastics&st=cse

PS: I guess Medusa and I were tapping the keys at the same time and along the same lines!

 

[museksk8r]

Oh yes, the risk is there for all ages. But an 11 year old (or 4 to 6 year old, sometimes the heavy training starts back then) kid doesn't have a choice. An 18 year old does.



YES! Let's go and support the abuse and exploitation of young girls - so that they can do the most important thing in the world: win the medals. Fantastic idea. The Chinese girls are taken away from their homes at 5 to 11, they have no rights, zero protection - they are at everyone's mercy. If the Chinese go through so much trouble to build little soldier-athletes - then they should be at least rewarded with a change of the rules, so they can train their soldiers to peak even earlier and send them to international competitions long before all these pesky natural body changes set in.

And yes, I know that these athletes would train anyway. Yes, I know that there are inconsistent age rules that make no sense at all. But that is no reason at all to encourage even more abuse, even more unnatural training at a young age.

And I am not just talking about China, I am talking about other countries with organised high-performance sports, I am talking about overambitious parents in the US and in Europe, whose children are just as unprotected and at their parents' and coach's mercy as the baby athletes in China, North Korea etc. are. I am talking about a tiny little, completely insignificant thing called human rights. Children's rights. And these governments and sports organisations, and some parents and coaches are often ignoring these rights. The human rights movement worked for years and years to ensure that there are laws against child labour, laws to protect the child from abuse and exploitation - and we throw it all out of the window - for medals.

You can't vote before you are 18, you can't get drunk before you are 16, you can't drive a car and you can't smoke before you are 18, you have limited control about the money you earn (depending on the age) - but apparently people think that you can represent your country (and sometimes make a political statement through that) in the biggest sports event ever, that you can make the decision to ruin your body and health before you can even read, that you can represent and endorse companies, despite the fact that legally it's not the baby athlete's decision to make.

Gotta love this world. A world where you can be a superstar and a champion, and at the same time, little more than a slave.

WOAH! To reiterate my original post, I specifically stated "those who have the skill AND DESIRE to compete should be able to." I do not at all support the exploitation of little girls to be treated as "little slaves" in order to win medals for their nations. Of course, it is vital to the well being of all these young athletes that they are surrounded by coaches and families whose primary concern are their health. The athletes and the people around them have a priority to always listen to what their bodies and minds are telling them in terms of their limitations and in terms of how much training and competition is too much. I do not at all support a world of promising talents burned out too young due to injuries, like Tara Lipinski and Deanna Stellato. Someone, namely Pat Lipinski, should have stepped in and stopped Tara from practicing 50 3loop+3loops a day.

Please don't put words in my mouth that I didn't say, thanks.

 

[Medusa]

WOAH! To reiterate my original post, I specifically stated "those who have the skill AND DESIRE to compete should be able to." I do not at all support the exploitation of little girls to be treated as "little slaves" in order to win medals for their nations.

And how do you determine that? How do you find out that some 12-year-old Chinese girl is skating at the biggest international events because she has the desire to skate and compete - or perhaps because the government is paying her poor parents a bit of money so they can afford a bit more than the general poor peasant? How do you find out that some 13-year-old American girl isn't just channelling her overambitious parents instead of her own desires? How do you determine that some 11-year-old Russian girl isn't just competing because she doesn't want to disappoint her parents and feels like she owes them to win because they sacrificed so much for her?

If you want to play the game like that - you need indepth psychological evaluations, of the girls, of the parents, the coaches. It would be best if a judge determines if a girl is "adult" enough for these kind of competitions and decisions. Constant psychological monitoring would be just as important - children change their opinions / moods / states of mind very often. All of this has to be done by independent international organisations with no conflicts of interest, by highly qualified personnel who are incorruptable and objective. If the ISU/people who want the age limit to fall/federations/governments can guarantee that - then I will be looking forward to see (then) 12-year-old Liza Tiktamisheva competing at L.A.

The Times had a column calling women's gymnastics child abuse but I think that argument is much weaker when the athletes are older. http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/09/op...nastics&st=cse

That's one outstanding column.

 

[childfreegirl]

Does anyone know where I can find a list of all the Olympic medalists in gymnastics? I found a list of countries online but not the names. My mom and I were trying to remember the name of a gymnast from several Olys ago.

Thanks

 

[dutchherder]

Childfreegirl,

Here ya go:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Olympic_medalists_in_gymnastics_(men)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Olympic_medalists_in_gymnastics_(women)

 

[dutchherder]

Does anyone know if they'll be televising the men's individual all-around tonight? I couldn't find it listed on nbcolympics.com or yahoo sports, except that yahoo sports says that telemundo will be recapping it in the wee hours of tomorrow morning???

 

[sillylionlove]

Yes they will be televising it live...probably just like last night with not a great deal of coverage and going back and forth between swimming. NBC starts its coverage tonight at 8 pm but due to the time zone difference, I would not expect to see the men's all around until about 11 pm Eastern Time. It's not scheduled to start until 11 am Thursday in Beijing....which is about 11 pm Eastern Time....if you have DVR or a tape I would tape the late night telecast from 1am or so until 4 am or so...it's definitly listed for that time.
However, I would not expect too much coverage since there are no US men that are favored to medal.

 

[Tinymavy15]

The U.S girls couldn't do it this time. A combination of Shawn's underscored perfect bar and Alicia's nervous wreck we have to settle for silver. Such a pity.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

The U.S girls couldn't do it this time. A combination of Shawn's underscored perfect bar and Alicia's nervous wreck we have to settle for silver. Such a pity.

Oh I think the americans know how to be sportsmen. And whoever thought silver was insignificant?

 

[lmarie086]

Silver is no small deal. IMO, the American girls would have to have been 100% al the way through and the Chinese would've had to make serious errors-every one of them- to win the gold. Not to take away from what the Americans did because they were absolutely amazing, even with the mistakes. And my heart goes out to Alicia Sacramone, as I hear she's totally blaming herself.

Now I'm not usually one for conspiracy theories, but I heard an interesting one today. All three of the American girls (even Shawn Johnson, who never goes OOB) went OOB as did most of the other teams. IIRC, none of the Chinese did-although I may be wrong on that. One of my friends was watching last night and said he almost thought the floor (in bounds space at least) was not as big as most other floors (that the OOB space was bigger- I'm sorry if I'm not making sense lol). And as the Chinese have trained on that floor, they know exactly where to place themselves.
I'm not saying I believe it or not but it's a very good theory (and this same person has a theory on all the records being broken in swimming). And I mean, Shawn Johnson stepping OOB? It just doesn't happen.

 

[ManyCairns]

The U.S girls couldn't do it this time. A combination of Shawn's underscored perfect bar and Alicia's nervous wreck we have to settle for silver. Such a pity.

Oh, maybe I'd better not watch then. I still get peeved over Shannon Miller's underscored (IMO and Mary Lou Retton's, who was writing a daily commentary on the '96 games) bars routine in Atlanta.

 

[heyang]

I don't know if I put a lot of credence into the OOB issue - unless I'm not understanding it. Anyway, I'm pretty sure there's a standard size that the floor must be for the Olympics and it's not as though it's an old ice rink that has the same surface area, but might be longer in one country and wider in another. The floor space is square and has to be of certain dimension.

Also, last night's commentator said the she felt that Alicia pulls back on her tumbling passes because she worries too much about going OOB because she's done it many times in other competitions.


the NY Times had an article where they questioned the legitmacy of the broken world records - not questioning who won. This pool is about 3 feet deeper than other past Oly venues. Also, it's wider, but only 8 of 10 lanes are used. The added depth and width has resulted in less resistance in the water since it's not sloshing around as much. Also, the one piece suits being worn are like girdles that mold the body into a more aerodynamic shape. All of these factors are shared by all of the swimmers - so , it's fair with regards to the race, but it's not neccessarily appropriate to say that the world records have been broken because the races were performed under very different conditions.

Here are a couple of links about the swimming technology.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/12/sports/olympics/12records.html?ref=world


http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=93478073

 

[delray1977]

Oh, maybe I'd better not watch then. I still get peeved over Shannon Miller's underscored (IMO and Mary Lou Retton's, who was writing a daily commentary on the '96 games) bars routine in Atlanta.

I have been watching myself, and noticed that our american women have been getting underscored, especially on the beam. In the qualifying round on Sunday one of the comentaters mentioned that shawn and nastia were underscored on the beam, they also mentioned that the chinese women's scores in the team finale were a bit too high on that apparatis. I felt realy bad for Sacramone when she fell on the beam. I believe it shook up the the rest of the team. It did not help them on the floor exercise and they all stepped out of bounds (That actually remined me of what happened to Miller and Dawes at the '96 games in the all- around which I found painful to watch) I have been reading messages on other boards and Alicia has been blamed for the team losing which I find unfair. They should not feel ashamed for winning the silver. I hope that Shawn and nastia go all out and show why they are among the best in the world in the all-around.

 

[Medusa]

She and Liukin better find a way to do so on Friday, because the raucous pro-Chinese crowd in the National Indoor Stadium will be raising the roof in support of Yang and Jiang, and the judges will be looking for any excuse to send the crowd home happy.

Bet on Johnson and Liukin to deny them that pleasure. Which one will grab gold?

That's from a preview from Sports Illustrated - what kind of media ist that? Before the competition even started - the author makes sure that everyone who reads it knows that, if the Americans don't win, it's the fault of the Chinese audience and the judges.

Isn't sports illustrated a halfway serious magazine? Because I expect to read that kind of thing in the cheapest of tabloids.

 

[Mathman]

About everyone going out of bounds on the floor exercise (and maybe Alicia underrotated and fell because she was afraid of going out of bounds) -- another possibility is that the floor was "bouncier" than usual.

Wasn't there a problem one year when the vault was the wrong height and everyone was falling until they got it fixed?