U.S. Figure Skating Announces 2015-16 Team Envelopes

[Sam-Skwantch]

If you do not want yearly results to be taken into account for the envelopes, on what basis would you judge "potential future development?"

If assessment of "potential future development" were to be purely subjective instead, politicking then would become a thousand times more problematic.

BTW, if Mariah had placed fifth at U.S. Nats, she would have qualified

I'm not saying ignore results. I'm merely suggesting that ....

Per the envelope criteria, Mirai qualified for Team B because she was the third alternate to the world team.

...isn't really a result nor something I feel should be a deciding qualifier. I'm more thinking of the program as a whole and not just Mariah vs Mirai. Also...how do they decide how many to find in each envelope because the men and women don't seem to hold the same amounts.

 

[ice coverage]

I'm not saying ignore results. I'm merely suggesting that ....



...isn't really a result nor something I feel should be a deciding qualifier. I'm more thinking of the program as a whole and not just Mariah vs Mirai. Also...how do they decide how many to find in each envelope because the men and women don't seem to hold the same amounts.

Agree to disagree, but not before pointing out that you are contradicting yourself.

You say that you do not want results alone to determine the envelopes.
And then you turn around and say that it is wrong for the alternate status to be used as a criterion because it is not a result.

I would add that the selection of the World team (plus alternates) itself is based on a set of objective criteria (results) -- although the International Committee probably has some discretion as to the exact weighting of the criteria.
So some human judgment is being applied -- but what you want anyway is for human judgment to be applied to the envelope assignments.

My understanding is that there are no quotas for any discipline or any envelope -- and I am glad that there are no quotas.
The criteria are the same for all disciplines.

As for Mariah, I too was just using her as an example. (Sorry that my computer with a mind of its own submitted my previous post before I was ready to. I edited it above to complete my thought.)
But b/c your first post named Mirai and Mariah, I will use them as examples to point out that b/c there are no quotas, hypothetically removing Mirai from Envelope B would not have created an additional B slot for which Mariah or any other lady would have been eligible.
In other words, Mirai's inclusion in Envelope B did not deprive Mariah or any other lady from a theoretical slot in Envelope B.

So my question for you is:
Without making comparisons to other skaters (for the reason in the previous paragraph), what case can you make for Mariah or any other skater to be in a higher envelope than s/he already is? Their objective results already were taken into consideration. Anything more would be subjective judgment as to their potential future development. (Although irrelevant, my own subjective judgment is that Mariah's potential future development is promising.)

 

[Blades of Passion]

Mirai probably needs the training money more. Mariah's family was paying for both Morgan and Mariah before, but Morgan is no longer competing, so I don't think there is any financial worry there.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

@Golden411
Agree to agree

Maybe I'm just swept up in the TeamKoRo buzz but I sense something strong building over there. That and the fact that Mariah has made a few strong skates at her biggest event(Nationals) would be enough for me to place her on group B. It's also her first season on the GP which maybe makes her worthy of extra support. I know she is building fan support I just would like to see the fed follow suit.

I'm clearly biased so.....take it with a grain of salt.

To another subject.....why is Josh in group B?

 

[ice coverage]

@Golden411
Agree to agree

Maybe I'm just swept up in the TeamKoRo buzz but I sense something strong building over there. That and the fact that Mariah has made a few strong skates at her biggest event(Nationals) would be enough for me to place her on group B. It's also her first season on the GP which maybe makes her worthy of extra support. I know she is building fan support I just would like to see the fed follow suit.

I'm clearly biased so.....take it with a grain of salt.

To another subject.....why is Josh in group B?

To qualify for Envelope A, Josh would have had to win Four Continents (silver is not enough) -- or place in the top ten at Worlds.

 

[Ice Dance]

@Golden411
To another subject.....why is Josh in group B?

I think it's his ranking on one of the international lists. He did great at 4CC's, but his Grand Prix results were lower than Max & Jeremy's.

Edit: And there you go. See the answer above. I knew someone would have a more clear explanation.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

I love Mirai, but I can understand why USFS sent Ashley to Sochi. I don't know whether to laugh or cry at the irony of your opinion that the only thing that should have mattered for the 2015 World alternates was Mirai's placement at Nats.

They are completely different situations. Ashley was the dominant US woman for a few years until her 4th place finish. Mirai finished 10th and did not have a single good result the entire season. Mirai's nationals was very poor but her entire season wasn't good either. What result during the season would you use to justify placing her above skaters who finished ahead of her at Nationals? Isn't that the point of the "body of work," that we can pick out competitions where a skater exhibited the form that would be competitive?

 

[rollerblade]

@Golden411
To another subject.....why is Josh in group B?

I was surprised by that as well, at first. I was wondering why there are only 2 men (ditto pairs) when there are 3 each for ladies and dance. Then I started reading the criteria page. Josh missed Tier2 in Team A by ONE placement at Worlds! (or 1 placement at 4CC, but there's no way he would place above Denis, so forget 4CC) All Josh needed was 6.12 more points at worlds.

As for Mariah... why wasn't she in any Junior Worlds? I think her performance (or lackthereof) in the Junior circuit and 8th place at Golden Spin hurt her more in this selection. If she had lit up the Junior scene like Jason did in 2012-13, she would have made Team B easily.

If being in her first senior GP means she's worthy of extra support, then they have to do the same for everyone else. If you haven't noticed, the list of names in Team C is rather long. What makes Mariah deserving of extra support over her fellow skaters..... is it because of her one breakout performance at Nationals last year? Because she has more "potential" than, say, Bradie Tennell? (Bradie who? Exactly.) Because you like her coach more?

 

[dorispulaski]

Mariah was asked about Junior Worlds, but Kori and she felt that it was the wrong choice for her, since she was going senior internationally in the fall. Kori was interviewed by TSL in a very long, two part interview. I don't recall which part of the interview included questions about team selections, but I think it was part two.

Part One: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=174m-nshXxk

or​

Part Two: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IrUv4iTSCxA

By the way, the envelope selection criteria change a bit every year. Also, they are still using Tier one and two level funding in each of the envelopes.

Apparently, the Haydenettes are in Team A, and a number of other synchro teams are on the B, C, and Reserve teams.
http://www.usfigureskating.org/Athletes.asp?id=209

TEAM A SYNCHRONIZED​

Haydenettes

TEAM B SYNCHRONIZED​

Crystallettes	Lexettes Junior
St. Louis Synergy Junior

TEAM C SYNCHRONIZED​

Starlights

Hockettes Junior

RESERVE TEAM SYNCHRONIZED​

Miami University	Chicago Jazz Junior
Team Braemar Junior	California Gold Junior
Skyliners Junior	ICE'Kateers
Skyliners Senior	Synchroettes Junior

 

[ice coverage]

They are completely different situations. Ashley was the dominant US woman for a few years until her 4th place finish. Mirai finished 10th and did not have a single good result the entire season. Mirai's nationals was very poor but her entire season wasn't good either. What result during the season would you use to justify placing her above skaters who finished ahead of her at Nationals? Isn't that the point of the "body of work," that we can pick out competitions where a skater exhibited the form that would be competitive?

I now have refreshed my memory that per Coyote Chris (who had checked his 2015 USFS media guide), the 2015 world team criteria were the same as for 2014 (except for the years, obviously).

U.S. TEAM — ATHLETE SELECTION
The athlete selection procedure for the 2014 World Championships is as follows:
The winner in each discipline (ladies, men’s, pairs and ice dance) at the 2014 Prudential U.S. Figure Skating Championships, Jan. 5-12, in Boston, will earn an automatic spot on the 2014 World Team. The remaining team members in each discipline will be selected by U.S. Figure Skating’s International Committee, taking into consideration the results of events in the following order of importance:

•2014 Prudential U.S. Figure Skating Championships
•2013 ISU Grand Prix of Figure Skating Final
•2013 ISU World Figure Skating Championships
•2013 ISU Four Continents Figure Skating Championships
•2013 ISU World Junior Figure Skating Championships
•2013 ISU Junior Grand Prix of Figure Skating Final​

Skaters who do not compete at the 2014 U.S. Championships due to injury or illness, but who meet the other criteria, may also be considered for selection.​

http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/sh...ps-Now-Known&p=1052123&viewfull=1#post1052123

Note that ISU championships from the previous season are included in the criteria.

Ashley, Gracie, and Polina were on the 2015 world team. Karen Chen was too young.
Cesario and Hicks were the two alternates above Mirai.
Based on the world team criteria, the comparisons would have been among:

Mariah: 6th at Nats
Tyler: 7th at Nats + 14th at 2014 Junior Worlds
Courtney: 8th at Nats + 4th at 2014 Four Continents
Hannah: 9th at Nats
Mirai: 10th at Nats + 10th at 2014 Four Continents​

http://www.usfigureskating.org/leaderboard/results/2015/2015_us_fs_champs/CAT021SEG016.html
http://www.isuresults.com/results/wjc2014/CAT002RS.HTM
http://www.isuresults.com/results/fc2014/CAT002RS.HTM

So to answer your question, DMD:

USFS evidently decided that the 2014 Four Continents results for Courtney and Mirai were sufficient for them to be given the second and third alternate slots over the others.
I wouldn't expect 100% agreement among fans with those decisions.
But I think they are within reason. YMMV.​

---

... As for Mariah... why wasn't she in any Junior Worlds? I think her performance (or lackthereof) in the Junior circuit and 8th place at Golden Spin hurt her more in this selection. If she had lit up the Junior scene like Jason did in 2012-13, she would have made Team B easily. ...

FWIW, Mariah would have needed to place in the top three at Junior Worlds to qualify for Envelope B.

 

[noidont]

Mariah is lovely but she hasn't proven herself internationally. There was no way she could have beaten Wakaba at junior worlds anyway.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

USFS evidently decided that the 2014 Four Continents results for Courtney and Mirai were sufficient for them to be given the second and third alternate slots over the others.
I wouldn't expect 100% agreement among fans with those decisions.
But I think they are within reason. YMMV.

Thanks for the clarification. I do wish the process would be modified to somehow promote younger skaters instead of holding them back because they don't have international results. A 10th place 4CC finish does not seem like a strong enough result to justify an alternate place ahead of skaters who finished 3 or 4 spots ahead.

 

[Gullygirl84]

Thanks for the clarification. I do wish the process would be modified to somehow promote younger skaters instead of holding them back because they don't have international results. A 10th place 4CC finish does not seem like a strong enough result to justify an alternate place ahead of skaters who finished 3 or 4 spots ahead.

Mirai's 10th place 4CC score was still higher than any international score that Mariah has received yet (of course, a discussion regarding the criteria established for the Team funding envelopes is not without merit. I remember Phil Hersh writing an article in spring of 2010 about Mirai receiving less funding for the next season than Rachel Flatt, even though Mirai had received higher scores than Rachel at the Olympics and Worlds. Phil thought they should have the same tier of funding, but Rachel had had a stronger GP season than Mirai. I don't know if the criteria has changed since then).

As a fan of both Mirai and Mariah, I am not too worried about Mariah's Team C envelope funding holding her back. I have been very impressed by her progress in the last year. Even though there have not been videos of her new programs out yet, they are getting good reviews by those who have seen them. Her PCs should go up the more she competes internationally. She also did very well in the jump event, and if the reports about her doing a triple flip triple toe in her SP at Broadmoor are correct, that is a definite upgrade from last season. I look forward to seeing her progress.

Edit: I focused on Mirai in relation to Mariah above since Hannah Miller already has Team B funding. For those who think the criteria should change, I would be interested in specifically how they would change it, since again, the discussion is not without merit.

 

[rollerblade]

What does this "funding" cover? Coaching fee? Designer outfits? Air fare?
Do they need to travel in Premium Economy or will Regular Economy suffice? Can the skaters share hotel rooms (or heck, motel) or must they have their own private suites?

 

[adelia]

Alexei Krasnozhon was Mishina's former student. He migrated to the US 1-2 years ago. According to one of the students from Mishin's school, he'll likely get a JGP this season.

 

[ice coverage]

For the record, a skater with ZERO international results can qualify for a USFS envelope as follows:

Envelope A:

Tier 2: 2015 U.S. National Senior Champion​

Envelope B

Tier 1: Placements 2nd - 4th in the senior events at the 2015 U.S. Figure Skating Championships
Tier 2: Placement 5th in the senior events at the 2015 U.S. Figure Skating Championships​

Envelope C

Tier 1

◦Placements 6th -7th in the senior events at the 2015 U.S. Figure Skating Championships
◦2015 U.S. Junior Champion​

Tier 2

◦Placements 8th in the senior events at the 2015 U.S. Figure Skating Championships
◦Placements 2nd - 3rd in the junior events at the 2015 U.S. Figure Skating Championships​

Envelope Developmental

Tier 1: Placements 4th - 6th in the junior events at the 2015 U.S. Figure Skating Championships
Tier 2: Placements 1st - 3rd in the novice events at the 2015 U.S. Figure Skating Championships​

Additional Considerations

- Consideration to place the athletes in Team C - Tier 1 will be given for senior level skaters placing lower at the U.S. Figure Skating Championships where the event was very strong or the results were very close.
- Consideration to place the athletes in Team C - Tier 2 will be given for junior level skaters placing lower at the U.S. Figure Skating Championships where the event was very strong or the results were very close.​

​

Understand that not everyone agrees with the criteria. Even if they were changed a thousand times, agreement never would be universal.

At the very least, I give USFS brownie points for being completely transparent with the envelope criteria.
(If only I had a nickel for every complaint on GS that the 2014 Olympic selection procedure was not 100.00% transparent.)

---

What does this "funding" cover? Coaching fee? Designer outfits? Air fare?
Do they need to travel in Premium Economy or will Regular Economy suffice? Can the skaters share hotel rooms (or heck, motel) or must they have their own private suites?

Not sure, but my hunch is that hotel and flight expenses paid for by USFS do not come out of the envelope funding.

But to address those questions anyway:

The skaters most definitely share hotel rooms. Maia and Gracie always room together, for example. Ashley's favorite roommates are Madi Chock and Marissa. Etc., etc.

When the skaters do not travel Regular Economy, my assumption is that they most likely have received free upgrades from United or a partner airline (and that the upgrades often are given as a courtesy from United as a USFS sponsor -- although the skaters probably also have tons of frequent flyer miles from their extensive travels).
I for one am happy for any seat upgrades the skaters do receive -- with the hope that the effects of a multi-hour flight on their performance in competition is minimized as much as possible.​

 

[ice coverage]

Thanks for the clarification. I do wish the process would be modified to somehow promote younger skaters instead of holding them back because they don't have international results. A 10th place 4CC finish does not seem like a strong enough result to justify an alternate place ahead of skaters who finished 3 or 4 spots ahead.

Regarding the 2015 world alternates spots:
For me, if I had been on the USFS International Committee, it would not have been so much about rewarding Mirai for placing tenth -- and would have been more about giving her credit for meriting the significant assignment to 2014 Four Continents in the first place.

 

[concorde]

My impression is the funding covers training expenses like coaching fees and ice time. From what I hear, even at the top level, it has rather minimal (when compared to the skater's overall expenses). Top USFS skates are given an agent and that is how the get the real money to cover the expenses.

I believe different competitions cover expenses differently. For US Nationals, I believe you are on your own to get there. Somewhere I read that GP travel expenses (including hotel food per diem) are covered by the host federation. An yes, typically all Team USA member are traveling coach and sharing hotel rooms. Parents who want to accompany their child (even a minor) are footing their own bills.

 

[ice coverage]

On the broader topic (unrelated to envelopes) of how USFS can aid the development of up-and-coming skaters:

Occurs to me that it would be worth copying here part of a Mrs. P post from the Promising USA Skaters fan thread. (Thank you, Mrs. P .)

...
Also, it appears that a bunch of skaters --Emily Chan included-- were just as something called ISP Singles Camp? https://twitter.com/TimDolensky/status/616000212155301888

It looks like it includes skaters on the ISP who did not get a Grand Prix assignment, namely juniors (though i spot a few senior skaters)...

One of the skater posts that I had seen on social media referred to this year as the first-ever ISP Singles Camp.
So apparently it is something new.
My guess is that it was modeled after Champs Camp. (Photos from the ISP Camp team-building activity also had shown up on social media.)

The official blurb:

U.S. Figure Skating ISP Singles Camp
Date: June 27-30, 2015
Location: Colorado Springs, CO
* Held in conjunction with the Broadmoor Open. Offered to all ISP singles athletes who are not guaranteed a Grand Prix assignment. Athletes will receive on ice technical feedback, one on one sport performance sessions and on ice performance sessions.
http://usfigureskating.org/Athletes.asp?id=448​