WADA Compliance Review Committee / RUSADA

[flanker]

Whatever decision will be accepted, the reality is that without russian participation international figure skating will look as poor as a church mouse. Because the problem definitely lies completely elsewhere than in the world of russian skating I hope this sport won't be affected the hardest way. There is a difference between calling for justice and the people attending public executions because of the blood and death.

 

[Tolstoj]

Mutko? Read this:

"CAS lifts Olympic ban on former Russian Sports Minister Mutko"
The Court of Arbitration for Sport (CAS) has overturned a decision by the International Olympic Committee (IOC) to exclude former Russian Sports Minister Vitaly Mutko from taking part in the Olympic Games
https://de.reuters.com/article/spor...r-russian-sports-minister-mutko-idUKL8N24C2DI

That makes zero sense, how he keeps getting away from something he was well aware (and probably directed)?

And how do you propose to let these "independent athletes" compete and who is going to administer and pay for the drug testing?

Righteous indignation may feel good, but it doesn't pay for ensuring that Olympic sports and athletes are clean. Not when you put a fox in charge of the hen house.

The same way as it already works for independent athlete who competes under a neutral flag at every Olympics.

Russia will continue to fund them, cause rest assured they will use this (even though it's their fault) at their advantage, much like what they did in Pyeongchang making it look like OAR were heroes who survived, and perhaps paying for supporters to show Russian flags anyway.

That's them but the clean athletes should continue to compete.

Ok, but if one of the team was not clean, all the sportsmen from the teal lost medals. This rule is not new and works for decades. How is that different here?

It's not fair.

These athletes dedicated their entire life to this, tell them they wasted 15-20-25 years to go to the Olympics and they will never be able to go there because their Federation cheated.

It's not only that but i don't like how these decisions still remain so secretive, show your proofs publicly for all the athletes that should be banned (what they did on Pyeongchang was so shady: not inviting athletes we don't even know if they were caught or not), and put under arrest those who organized that state-doping.

 

[flanker]

It's not only that but i don't like how these decisions still remain so secretive, show your proofs publicly for all the athletes that should be banned (what they did on Pyeongchang was so shady: not inviting athletes we don't even know if they were caught or not), and put under arrest those who organized that state-doping.

The problem is that any proceeding before WADA doesn't work as a regular law suit. E.g. when you are an athlete and you are accused of doping, you are not in the position of a regular accused/defendant before the court, who has its rights for defence, access to the evidence etc. There is also nothing like presumption of innocence as the accused is the one who has to prove innocence, not that the guilt has to be proved. Before you even start have to pay significant amount of money for even getting the access to the evidence used against you. Relatively recently there was a case of a junior czech triathlonist who was accused of doping. He described in detail all the process he absolved and it was truly desperate. Though he succeeded on every level, the cost of every higher level was higher and higher and at the end he realized that WADA appealed to the arbitrary in Switzerland and the costs would be like 10 years income of his family so he had to give up.

As a lawyer I stand on some principles of proper process where the defendant has the rights like knowing all the facts of which you are accused and all the evidence used against you to give you a chance for a proper defence. But the system is settled completely different way with WADA's authority on the things that shouldn't be in its hands, in legal sense WADA has the authority of both prosecutor and the judge, it's called the inquisition process, which would be completely unacceptable in any other area. WADA is also pretty uncontrollable which shouldn't be mistaken for "independent".

That's why I have very low respect for this agency which in my way should serve as an executive body, taht should bring evdence and all the data, but the proceedings authority should be held elsewhere. Mixing executive and legal authority never brought anything good.

So that's my attitude as a lawyer.

 

[nussnacker]

And she went and competed anyways.

One of the few medalists too.

But as much as Russians complained that competing under Olympic flag the most horrible thing ever that could possibly happen to an athlete... they did not learn. THe whole "poo wittle Wussia" victim playing is getting tiresome.

Time to clean your act or get out.

I don't understand your contempt towards Russia as a country, you know, it has many different people in it. There are some nice ones, there are some bad ones too.
Is Russia playing a victim as a country? Is that organization playing the victim? I'm not sure how you can say any of that, the country is too big and too vast to have one singular emotion.

I think it's clear that innocent clean athletes, who dedicated their lives to training should not be held accountable for the sins and wrongdoings of other officials/athletes.
I don't know why people would want to generalize all these people as some faceless nameless unity.
We should look at people as individuals and not lump them all together.

 

[Alegria]

It's not fair.

These athletes dedicated their entire life to this, tell them they wasted 15-20-25 years to go to the Olympics and they will never be able to go there because their Federation cheated.

Life is not fair.
For example, those athletes enjoyed training and financial and other benefits provided by their country. It's not like they are not part of the system. As for me, it should be: for better, for worse, for richer, for poorer, in sickness and health. But not: for better, for richer and in health.

 

[nussnacker]

Life is not fair.
For example, those athletes enjoyed training and financial and other benefits provided by their country. It's not like they are not part of the system. As for me, it should be: for better, for worse, for richer, for poorer, in sickness and health. But not: for better, for richer and in health.

Wow, what?
They spend their own money (parents') as kids and only get financing at a later stage of their careers.
And even if they get state money, how does that make them guilty?
They are part of the system within their country, they can't escape that.
Innocent ones, however, are NOT part of any doping schemes, hence, they shouldn't be prosecuted.

If a group of students cheated in your class for the final exam, but you studied and worked hard and did everything yourself, would it be fair for you to be punished equivalently to them, although you did nothing wrong?
Say if the punishment is getting excluded from university after completing all your classes of 3-4 years, and they decide to exclude the whole class, is that the fair thing to do?

 

[Tolstoj]

Life is not fair.
For example, those athletes enjoyed training and financial and other benefits provided by their country. It's not like they are not part of the system. As for me, it should be: for better, for worse, for richer, for poorer, in sickness and health. But not: for better, for richer and in health.

They don't have a choice there, you can only play by the rules.

But they didn't accept to pay the consequences for someone else mistakes, and Thomas Bach seems to agree that clean athletes should be protected.

The problem is that any proceeding before WADA doesn't work as a regular law suit. E.g. when you are an athlete and you are accused of doping, you are not in the position of a regular accused/defendant before the court, who has its rights for defence, access to the evidence etc. There is also nothing like presumption of innocence as the accused is the one who has to prove innocence, not that the guilt has to be proved. Before you even start have to pay significant amount of money for even getting the access to the evidence used against you. Relatively recently there was a case of a junior czech triathlonist who was accused of doping. He described in detail all the process he absolved and it was truly desperate. Though he succeeded on every level, the cost of every higher level was higher and higher and at the end he realized that WADA appealed to the arbitrary in Switzerland and the costs would be like 10 years income of his family so he had to give up.

As a lawyer I stand on some principles of proper process where the defendant has the rights like knowing all the facts of which you are accused and all the evidence used against you to give you a chance for a proper defence. But the system is settled completely different way with WADA's authority on the things that shouldn't be in its hands, in legal sense WADA has the authority of both prosecutor and the judge, it's called the inquisition process, which would be completely unacceptable in any other area. WADA is also pretty uncontrollable which shouldn't be mistaken for "independent".

That's why I have very low respect for this agency which in my way should serve as an executive body, taht should bring evdence and all the data, but the proceedings authority should be held elsewhere. Mixing executive and legal authority never brought anything good.

So that's my attitude as a lawyer.

Agreed, we had similar cases even here in Italy.

With Schwarzer WADA has yet to prove the test tube wasn't counterfeited, which would be insane if it is, given all the public shame he had to face all these years, career ruined, and the consequences her ex girlfiriend Kostner also had to face.

My other big issue i have with WADA is also the fact that it is located in Canada, and it's how easy to think there are big conflicts of interest behind when you put that agency in a country so tied to US (which also has a big history in doping among their athletes), and they both have many reasons to destroy Russia's reputation in sports.

They have a lot to prove to convince the public on their transparency and what's funny is that they seem to have no interest on doing that: again this is how it is, accept or you're out.

 

[Edwin]

Punishing innocent athletes for crimes made on purpose by their highest leaders is what some governing bodies are demanding, as they think this is the only way to get the system changed at the very top. Read World Athletics, no doubt other bodies that have a particular bone to pick will voice the same demands. And all the ensuing legal fights all the way up to CAS, law firms are looking forward to those already.

First, December 9 hearings, then WADA’s decisions, then IOC’s answer plus those bodies particular demands.

Do we expect ISU to take a tough stance? I think not from the figure skating side, but perhaps from speed skating and short track?

 

[soogar]

Liza also took meldonium. Thought before it was banned. Russian doping is systematic still and state funded according to WADA. As long as it is like that there is no other way than to ban them all. It might be unfair for individual athletes. Lets hope they can participate as Olympics athletes as last time if inmcocents its proven

Just going to say that there is no definitive proof that meldonium has any performance enhancing properties. There are a host of substances on the drug list like diuretics and common cold medicines that are on there because they could be used as masking agents. Ryan Lochte received a suspension because he was photographed at one of those trendy IV vitamin places receiving an infusion. Unless he was going to do a distance race the next day, the only thing that happens with an IV is that you pee it out the next day. It absolutely has no beneficial properties, yet regular people do go to these places for IV infusions.

Meldonium was added as an after thought - and I bet it was politically motivated. When snowboarding became part of the Olympics, many of the athletes were testing positive for marijuana. It was a joke how many people were getting stripped of their medals because of marijuana. Then all of a sudden, marijuana was taken off the banned substance list. I'm certain it was because of the influx of popularity and money the extreme sports bring to the Olympics.

 

[Edwin]

Looking at the number of commercials for over the counter self medication, many aimed at (parents of) children and youths, that were interspersed in the Channel One figure skating broadcasts, the young Russian figure skaters will be feeling miserable with colds, coughs and flu's over the winter, as they and their parents need to be utmost careful with any medication, esp. those on the 'masking list'.

LOL, all those mega cool long haired, ponytailed and bearded snowboarders and half pipe riders are potheads? And smoking some pot makes you fearless and reckless? Given those falls, IOC must be glad nobody got killed or crippled for life. But it probably shows IOC put their mouth where the money is?

AFAIK, Meldonium was a Latvian product that never was offered for 'accreditation' (don't know the proper word for medicines) by a recognised authority outside of the former CIS. Hence it was probably suspicious by default, made worse by the mass use of it in almost any branch of sport.

 

[skatingfan200]

https://www.championat.com/other/news-3910157-na-chempionatah-evropy-i-kubkah-mira-rossijane-budut-vystupat-pod-flagom-strany.html

“Today at a meeting of the ad hoc committee of the European Coordinating Council for Interaction with the World Anti-Doping Agency (CAHAMA), a lot of questions were asked to the head of the WADA Compliance Committee, Jonathan Taylor, and he answered the following. Possible WADA sanctions will not affect the European Championships, World Cups and other less status international starts, because they do not fall under the concept of Major Event Organizers.

Consequently, at the European Championships, World Cups, Russians will perform under the flag of their country. You can also say now that for speaking at these tournaments the Russians will not need to meet any strict anti-doping requirements, admission must take place in the usual manner, at least for today everything should be so, "Takhnetskaya quotes TASS.

Russian athletes and their support personnel may only participate in Major Events staged in the Four Year Period where they are able to demonstrate that they are not implicated in any way by the non-compliance (i.e., they are not mentioned in incriminating circumstances in the McLaren reports, there are no positive findings reported for them in the database, and no data relating to their samples has been manipulated), in accordance with strict conditions to be defined by WADA (or the Court of Arbitration for Sport (CAS), if it sees fit), pursuant to the mechanism foreseen in ISCCS Article 11.2.6. In this circumstance, they may not represent the Russian Federation.

So, Stolbova, Burkin and Sotnikova

 

[luckyguy]

https://www.championat.com/other/news-3910157-na-chempionatah-evropy-i-kubkah-mira-rossijane-budut-vystupat-pod-flagom-strany.html

“Today at a meeting of the ad hoc committee of the European Coordinating Council for Interaction with the World Anti-Doping Agency (CAHAMA), a lot of questions were asked to the head of the WADA Compliance Committee, Jonathan Taylor, and he answered the following. Possible WADA sanctions will not affect the European Championships, World Cups and other less status international starts, because they do not fall under the concept of Major Event Organizers.

Consequently, at the European Championships, World Cups, Russians will perform under the flag of their country. You can also say now that for speaking at these tournaments the Russians will not need to meet any strict anti-doping requirements, admission must take place in the usual manner, at least for today everything should be so, "Takhnetskaya quotes TASS.



So, Stolbova, Burkin and Sotnikova

I don't think that Bukin and Stolbova can be punished for the 2nd time for the same thing. But I am not lawyer.

 

[sissyfritz]

I’m just popping in because I think that some people are a little unclear of the role that WADA plays with regards to the banning of athletes from competition.

WADA oversees the banned substances list and the subsequent testing of athletes to ensure the fairness of sport. If they find that an athlete, or in this case agency, is in non-compliance, they make a recommendation to the appropriate authority on what actions they believe should be taken.

It is up to the individual sport federations to make the final decision. It is the IAAF, for example, who continue to allow Justin Gatlin to compete on the track.

In the case of the Rio Games, WADA recommended that the IOC decline entries for all athletes submitted by the Russian Olympic Committee. The IOC chose not to do this, instead placing the onus on individual feds to make the decision regarding Russian athletes being allowed to compete.

When RUSADA remained in non-compliance with WADA in the wake of Rio 2016, the IOC took it a step further and banned athletes from competing under the Russian flag for the Pyeongchang Games.

It’s entirely possible that the IOC will make the same decision for Tokyo, but after 2 more years of shenanigans from RUSADA, it seems that a more difficult decision might need to be made.




SIDE NOTE: These are the facts, but obviously I am not without my own personal opinions.

I’m not sure that banning clean athletes will be particularly effective. Many people in Russia already view this as an an Anti-Russian conspiracy and this will probably only perpetuate that theory. Even if the facts don’t support it.

Instead of banning individual athletes , I believe that they should start by banning international competition from taking place on Russian soil. And yes, that includes Rostelecom. Do I like that this would punish the fans, like so many lovely posters on this board, who’ve done absolutely nothing wrong? No, but the lost revenue might be the only effective way of getting the Russian Federation to change. Maybe.

Just my two cents.

 

[Edwin]

entire posting

But this leaves the door open to individual governing bodies to make separate decisions -over their own sporting events-, including their events in the OG?

Will leave room open for those who have a bone to pick to take different measures from those who are still on terms with their Russian counterparts. USADA and World Athletics were very clear, we'll have to wait for other bodies to come forwar and make their positions known. I don't know what good this will do, as many voices as there are faces.

And CAS and those law firms will get lots of work, while the unequallity probably remains, to be used for political purposes and to create even more discord in the world of sports?

 

[sissyfritz]

But this leaves the door open to individual governing bodies to make separate decisions -over their own sporting events-, including their events in the OG?

Will leave room open for those who have a bone to pick to take different measures from those who are still on terms with their Russian counterparts. USADA and World Athletics were very clear, we'll have to wait for other bodies to come forwar and make their positions known. I don't know what good this will do, as many voices as there are faces.

And CAS and those law firms will get lots of work, while the unequallity probably remains, to be used for political purposes and to create even more discord in the world of sports?

Honestly, I don’t really disagree with you.

I wish I could see a way forward that makes sense for all parties, but I honestly don’t see how this is fixable when most of the governing bodies involved are either too afraid of offending those with power, are too corrupt to care, or won’t even admit they did something wrong.

And frankly, a lot of people are willing to let cheating slide as long as it doesn’t affect their favourite athletes/sports.

 

[Mathman]

Personally, I do not see any possible solution.

If you take performance-enhancing drugs then your performance will be enhanced, and you will win.

If you don't take performance-enhancing drugs, then it is the other guy whose performance will be enhanced, and you will lose.

 

[Draculus]

Instead of banning individual athletes, I believe that they should start by banning international competition from taking place on Russian soil. And yes, that includes Rostelecom. Do I like that this would punish the fans, like so many lovely posters on this board, who’ve done absolutely nothing wrong? No, but the lost revenue might be the only effective way of getting the Russian Federation to change. Maybe.

In terms of the revenue hosting sport event is not profitable. Especially in Russia.
So inability to host big events just decrease burden on state funds (short term).

 

[Ice Dance]

I'm pretty sure they didn't "data manipulate" for no reason.

The message is we cheated. We plan to go on cheating. We think we are too powerful for you to stop us. All we care about is winning & displaying our superiority to the world. And watch this, we will even get people who are being manipulated and cheated to argue publicly on our behalf.

It reeks of self-righteous arrogance. It stinks for innocent athletes that--presuming this drug & coverup policy continue--will probably ultimately pay the consequences for the cheating. It stinks for all of the athletes that have been cheated and have to wonder every time they compete whether they have a fair shot. And it stinks for the people who are being manipulated and/or already know it but are afraid to speak up about it because they have no power to do so. It stinks for the Olympic Committee and international sports bodies that are trying to create so many amazing opportunities for so many people. And it stinks for the audience that should not have to one day face disillusionment when their sports heroes prove mere mortals that did not deserve their admiration.

All these people trying very, very hard to create a fair field of play without robbing individual athletes of their Olympic dreams. And meanwhile, someone else has decided that's not good enough. That it's more important to display dominance and power.

 

[anonymoose_au]

I’m just popping in because I think that some people are a little unclear of the role that WADA plays with regards to the banning of athletes from competition.

WADA oversees the banned substances list and the subsequent testing of athletes to ensure the fairness of sport. If they find that an athlete, or in this case agency, is in non-compliance, they make a recommendation to the appropriate authority on what actions they believe should be taken.

It is up to the individual sport federations to make the final decision. It is the IAAF, for example, who continue to allow Justin Gatlin to compete on the track.

Now, this is interesting, because despite being cleared by FINA, the Chinese swimmer Sun is being pursued by WADA who want that ruling overturned.

Why is it that WADA only chose to go after him, but not Gaitlin? Talk about a bad look! It's like if you're Chinese or Russian obviously you must be stopped, but if you're not it's more like "Oh, okay, you made a mistake. You've learned your lesson and won't do it again? Righto."

If WADA wants credibility it has to act the same way to everyone, otherwise it's not just conspiracy theories...

 

[sissyfritz]

Now, this is interesting, because despite being cleared by FINA, the Chinese swimmer Sun is being pursued by WADA who want that ruling overturned.

Why is it that WADA only chose to go after him, but not Gaitlin? Talk about a bad look! It's like if you're Chinese or Russian obviously you must be stopped, but if you're not it's more like "Oh, okay, you made a mistake. You've learned your lesson and won't do it again? Righto."

If WADA wants credibility it has to act the same way to everyone, otherwise it's not just conspiracy theories...

True.

WADA took a lot of criticism in the past for not being tough enough on athletes. Justin Gatlin is a perfect example, as it wasn’t until well after his second ban that WADA recommended enforcing longer bans for cheaters. A lot of people decried them for it.

I suspect that’s part of the reason why WADA’s coming down much harder on today’s athletes, like Sun Yang.