What will Duhamel & Radford Bring on Next?

[Sandpiper]

Holy crap. That was sensational. They're truly remarkable.

It's ridiculous that a throw 4Z is just 9 points vs. a throw 3Z at 5.5 points... but in singles, a 3Z is 6 points and a 4Z is 13.6 points. Same goes with the scoring of the throw 4S. A throw 4Z should be at least 10 points, if not 11.

I've been rethinking this. While quad throws are undeniably difficult, dangerous, and rare... it does seem like it requires a specific technique to get. Ironically, that technique seems to be a smaller triple throw that relies more on the woman jumping than the man actually throwing her. While it may be impossible for a team like V/T to get a quad throw, it seems equally impossible for a team like D/R to get triple throws of the height and quality of V/T's. I think the current values are a kind of balancing act--rewarding both and recognizes the difficulty/merits of both throws.

I'm still hoping S/H will prove me (and Trankov) wrong on who could get quads, but as of now, I think the sport's pulling in different directions. Back in the late '90s/early '00s, Shen/Zhao pushed the technical boundaries by doing never-seen-before monster-sized throws/twists. That's what's become a staple in pairs skating, especially after COP. Should we backtrack now, and say, "No, no, Shen/Zhao did it all wrong..." because their technique was not good at producing quads--not of the throw variety, anyway.

(Btw, I don't really have a strong stance here, one way or the other. But D/R--and K/S--have really made me rethink pairs.)

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

I think the reason for the points the way they are is that with a throw mechanic where the guy assists the woman into the air, the takeoff is somewhat negligible and it's a matter of the guy throwing the woman higher for the extra rotation. In singles, a skater needs to generate their own height for the extra rotation, without a lift assist and thus it's much harder (hence why we rarely see pair throw triples under rotated, but see it a lot in singles).

That being said, it's weird that a level 3 quad twist is worth more than a quad throw, when the latter seems a lot more risky to properly execute since the man can't help the woman land and she has to control the landing herself.

 

[anyanka]

Next they will bring ... a vegan cookbook, authored by Meagan herself. Proceeds will fund their training.

 

[daphenaxa]

I hope they bring better music choices. Because that SP song from last year made it unwatchable for me.

 

[Mista Ekko]

I see absolutely no reason a Quad element with say a hand down should be worth as much as a good triple,

Scores should be raised ASAP

 

[QuadThrow]

Holy crap. That was sensational. They're truly remarkable.

It's ridiculous that a throw 4Z is just 9 points vs. a throw 3Z at 5.5 points... but in singles, a 3Z is 6 points and a 4Z is 13.6 points. Same goes with the scoring of the throw 4S. A throw 4Z should be at least 10 points, if not 11.

That´s it!

 

[moriel]

I agree with current scores
The quads seem to be smaller, so it ends up same "size" as the triple of many pairs in most cases.
It looks way more dangerous than a single's quad (more height etc, and less control from the lady, as she is "helped" to jump) so not sure if its worth encouraging it with too many points. Basically, in singles, men fall a quad or two pretty much ever time they skate or close to that - imagine that in pairs: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-lm6kU8HIY

I like quads and stuff, but this actually seems too risky to encourage really =S If a pair can do it, great, 3.5 extra points, if they cant, they can just get those points somewhere else instead of trying and falling - this would be way harder if the difference was 7.6.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Next they will bring ... a vegan cookbook, authored by Meagan herself. Proceeds will fund their training.

That would be awesome actually. I think people tend to associate vegetarianism/vegan with not being tough/strong with the lack of meat, but she's built like a tank.

I hope I don't jinx it, but to the person who said she will eventually seriously hurt herself, if there were any female skater who I could picture handling multiple quad throws, it's Meaghan (and maybe Wenjing).

Speaking of which, I wonder if S/H will develop a 4F at some point.

 

[HanDomi]

I agree with current scores
The quads seem to be smaller, so it ends up same "size" as the triple of many pairs in most cases.
It looks way more dangerous than a single's quad (more height etc, and less control from the lady, as she is "helped" to jump) so not sure if its worth encouraging it with too many points. Basically, in singles, men fall a quad or two pretty much ever time they skate or close to that - imagine that in pairs: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-lm6kU8HIY

I like quads and stuff, but this actually seems too risky to encourage really =S If a pair can do it, great, 3.5 extra points, if they cant, they can just get those points somewhere else instead of trying and falling - this would be way harder if the difference was 7.6.

I have the same feeling. Quad throws are great, but when I see huuuuge quad throw like from Zhang/Zhang I just hold breathe :hopelessness: But small throw quads like Kavaguti/Smirnov doesn't look too dangerous overall


Zhang/Zhang quad throw from nationals in 2006:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2dUqG7xTLE That's just most incredible quad throw I ever seen

 

[moriel]

I have the same feeling. Quad throws are great, but when I see huuuuge quad throw like from Zhang/Zhang I just hold breathe :hopelessness: But small throw quads like Kavaguti/Smirnov doesn't look too dangerous overall


Zhang/Zhang quad throw from nationals in 2006:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2dUqG7xTLE That's just most incredible quad throw I ever seen

Yeah it is just insane although very scary

 

[coucou84]

:shocked: I am... Speechless.

Yes, we can critizise them about their programs and artistry, but not for their technique. Wow.

I love them. Period. Don't care what people say about their artistry, the long program last season was pure amazing.

 

[Sandpiper]

I have the same feeling. Quad throws are great, but when I see huuuuge quad throw like from Zhang/Zhang I just hold breathe :hopelessness: But small throw quads like Kavaguti/Smirnov doesn't look too dangerous overall


Zhang/Zhang quad throw from nationals in 2006:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2dUqG7xTLE That's just most incredible quad throw I ever seen

Yeah, it's just hard to say what exactly we should be rewarding. Should it be...
- extra revolutions, regardless of size/quality? (in which case, we should encourage pairs to get smaller throws, since that creates more stable quads. GOE should matter less/be not based on size--reversing the decades-long trend in pairs, dating back at least to Shen/Zhao)
- size/quality? (in which case, we shouldn't care too much about quads and sticking in extra revolutions)
- trying to reach some pinnacle of quad-ness, like Zhang/Zhang's throw? (which would have a huge tariff in terms of consistency and injuries. )

I think the current rules are some kind of balancing/juggling act. It's very different from singles where there isn't an inverse relationship between jump size and revolutions.

 

[Skater Boy]

I have the same feeling. Quad throws are great, but when I see huuuuge quad throw like from Zhang/Zhang I just hold breathe :hopelessness: But small throw quads like Kavaguti/Smirnov doesn't look too dangerous overall


Zhang/Zhang quad throw from nationals in 2006:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2dUqG7xTLE That's just most incredible quad throw I ever seen

I loved the Zhangs double axel triple toes and throw quad but it wasn't very consistent. And I still think it was unfair that in 2006 they got silver. They went and tried a hard and risky tricky and failed miserably. That is the chance; and they got to stop the music for a long time. They should have been penalized far more to be fair. It is not like it was an accident or something impeded them. They technically made the error. Now I don't want them to get hurt but at th same time they shouldn't be able to take advantage and get a long break (which they did)

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

I don't think the long break was a huge advantage... after all, they still had the entire program to go through and had only attempted the quad up until that point, so it's not like they had tired themselves out.. And they were penalized for the error, technically speaking - having the jump downgraded and everything. The difference was in the SBS jumps Shen and Zhao only did 3T+2T and a 1A (BV of 6.2, and with -GOE on both jumping passes). Zhangs' 2A+3T (7.3 points) alone was worth more, and they had a SBS 3S on top of that. Zhangs earned 12.58 points on SBS jumps, Shen/Zhao only 4.33 points. Z/Z's Base value was 6.4 points higher than S/Z, which made up for S/Z having 2-3 points higher PCS. Not to mention, Shen/Zhao made two errors in their SP (two hands down for Shen on the 3T and Hongbo had to readjust his pick on their death spiral, causing a level 1 and deduction).

I know the Zhangs weren't many people's cups of tea artistically, but they certainly deserved the silver if you look at what all teams did. I'd say the same goes for D/R... artistically not the strongest in the field, but technically by pushing for harder elements they make up the difference and thensome.

 

[Sandpiper]

I'm not sure what's the point of bringing up Zhang/Zhang's results in Torino? It seems like some people must use every single thread, even completely unrelated ones, to rehash their personal pet peeves when a skater is brought up. Even if the skaters are being discussed from a totally different angle.

(If you want my opinion, having rewatched the performances... I thought Zhang/Zhang deserved fourth place. However, I also think they were robbed of the 2008 World title, so things balance out in the end. )

 

[Blades of Passion]

Dube/Davison deserved the 2008 World title! That program was so far beyond all the others.

Zhang's are an interesting case at 2006 Olympics. Although their LP was "inspiring", I'm always electrified by how they manage the 2Axel+3Toe (ironically it is better synced there than any other time in their career because of her being more cautious on the 2Axel) and then the huge twist, the rest of the program is pretty sloppy all the way through. It's really their solid SP that made them deserve a medal. I'd have them in 3rd, Pang/Tong in 2nd, and Shen/Zhao in 4th. Strangely, I think Shen/Zhao deserved 4th at all three of their Olympics up until they won in 2010.

 

[Skater Boy]

Wow BOP so brazen of you. But I actually looked up some the performances - Dsquared, the Zhangs. P and T and S and Z and I can see where you are coming from. It is strange; life depends on the eyes you are looking through I guess

 

[4everchan]

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