Ice Dance to be removed from Olympics?

[daphenaxa]

Could we assess Cinquanta's work as ISU president? What rights and wrongs did he do?

I think that the creation of the Grand Prix series and the Grand Prix Finale were a great achievement. I also personally think that doing only 1 SP and 1 LP for every discipline was a good idea.
I also read on wikipedia that he introduced prize money for ISU events which is very good for the skaters!
For the whole new IJS scoring system, though there are still lots of problem with the judging (cf the Sonia Bianchetti thread!), I am among those who like it better than 6.0

For the bad things, he says dumb sh*t like "oh let's get rid of the SP" or "oh I know nothing about ice dance". But to be honest I am not very aware of how he is super awful.

 

[daphenaxa]

I am not entirely against this idea. Ice Dance is really not a sport when you think of it, just as ballroom dancing is not a sport. It is a completely different discipline. For the most part judging ice dance is difficult because it is so subjective, perhaps that is where the problems lie with ice dance being included in the Olympics.

actually ballroom dancing is a sport it is included in the "world games" (which is kind of the olympic games of all the sport that are not featured in the olympics) and there are world championships or other competitions for every kinds of dance.
Also for the subjective aspect, figure skating is really subjective as well. And half-pipe snowboard and ski, slopestyle, and gymnastics, and rythmic gymnastics, and diving, synchro swimming, moguls, aerial, even ski jumping! Should all these be removed from the olympics as well?

 

[ILoveFigures]

I am not entirely against this idea. Ice Dance is really not a sport when you think of it, just as ballroom dancing is not a sport. It is a completely different discipline. For the most part judging ice dance is difficult because it is so subjective, perhaps that is where the problems lie with ice dance being included in the Olympics.

Actually, both ice dance and ballroom dancing are sports. Even chess is a sport, because a sport is defined as an activity involving physical exertion and skill in which an individual or team competes against another or others for entertainment.

 

[Ladskater]

Actually, further in my thoughts about this...since most of the problems with ice dance competition are to do with the judging why not make two categories for the outcome:

the winners of the technical marks

the winners of the artistic marks (long program) since it's mostly subjective and based on which program the judges like.

That way there would be a gold medal awarded to the team with the highest technical marks and a gold medal awarded to the team with the favorite long program of the judges. This would not only make it fair, but also less controversial. I think this would work.

 

[Barb]

And while I was worried about the future of ice dancing...
https://instagram.com/p/2--P-aKBkv/?taken-by=blackswanei
https://instagram.com/p/21G5fwQm4q/?taken-by=alexshibutani
https://instagram.com/p/2wre8TS7nL/?taken-by=maiashibutani
https://instagram.com/p/26_4Q-DKzi/?taken-by=ka2sh

 

[mnm464]

I admire synchro's ability to do whatever they do, but ice dance is perfect. In singles, you can mess up and still win at some competitions. Pairs you have to be for the most part, pretty clean, but ice dance is the hardest b/c everything has to be perfect. Even if it isn't perfect, to the "naked eye" it still is beautiful. That is what makes it so amazing to watch. Correct me if this is wrong, but it's my observations at major competitions.

 

[Sandpiper]

I admire synchro's ability to do whatever they do, but ice dance is perfect. In singles, you can mess up and still win at some competitions. Pairs you have to be for the most part, pretty clean, but ice dance is the hardest b/c everything has to be perfect. Even if it isn't perfect, to the "naked eye" it still is beautiful. That is what makes it so amazing to watch. Correct me if this is wrong, but it's my observations at major competitions.

So could you explain to me why Papadakis/Cizeron and Chock/Bates--with visibly out-of-sync twizzles--placed ahead of Weaver/Poje (who were a little tentative but made no errors I could see) at Worlds?

(This is not an argument about the results. This is an argument about whether "visible" errors are really punished more in ice dance.)

 

[WeakAnkles]

This rumor never made any sense to me. You want to have more women participate in the winter Olympics, so you eliminate a discipline where half the participants...are women?

Just sayin'...

 

[Mathman]

Could we assess Cinquanta's work as ISU president? What rights and wrongs did he do?

I think that the creation of the Grand Prix series and the Grand Prix Finale were a great achievement. I also personally think that doing only 1 SP and 1 LP for every discipline was a good idea.

I also read on wikipedia that he introduced prize money for ISU events which is very good for the skaters! For the whole new IJS scoring system, though there are still lots of problem with the judging (cf the Sonia Bianchetti thread!), I am among those who like it better than 6.0.

For the bad things, he says dumb sh*t like "oh let's get rid of the SP" or "oh I know nothing about ice dance". But to be honest I am not very aware of how he is super awful.

I think that in the early years of Mr. Cinquanta’s presidency he was regarded as a financial whiz who was good for the business end of the sport. He is given credit for negotiating multimillion dollar contracts with U.S. television networks (which is why he could give prize money to skaters), although that was more the result of figure skating’s overall popularity in the 1990s than anything Cinquanta did in particular.

He did consolidate the Grand Prix circuit, but that was somewhat at the expense of the individual events which had done fine on their own, especially Skate Canada since 1973, Skate America since 1979 and the French event, since 1987. (Trivia question: what lady has won the variously-named French event the most? Answer: Surya Bonaly, five times. )

On the negative side, Mr. Cinquata was regarded as dictatorial (especially as time went on), power conscious, and “political.” When the ISU constitution required that he step down in 2014 because of age, he simply set the constitution aside and unilaterally extended his term for four more years, saying that no one else could lead the organization in preparation for the 2018 Olympic games. In his attempts to assume control of all figure skating events, he is blamed for killing professional skating competitions in the late 1990s. (IMHO this charge is somewhat exaggerated.)

Mr. C. is also criticized for bringing a speed skating mentality to the ISU. Money generated by the financial success of figure skating was siphoned off to pay for speed skating. For better of worse, rule changes like the IJS make the sport more like a race and puts less emphasis on the performing arts aspect. Even his election as ISU president was something of a coup by the speed skating side to undercut the figure skating side in the “power corridors” of the ISU. Cinquanta’s image as a financial wizard has diminished as figure skating declined in popularity in North America (although to be honest this is due to factors beyond the ISU’s control).

Personally, I don't see anything super awful about him, either. Any CEO is going to face criticism for how he runs the company.

 

[daphenaxa]

I think that in the early years of Mr. Cinquanta’s presidency he was regarded as a financial whiz who was good for the business end of the sport. He is given credit for negotiating multimillion dollar contracts with U.S. television networks (which is why he could give prize money to skaters), although that was more the result of figure skating’s overall popularity in the 1990s than anything Cinquanta did in particular.

He did consolidate the Grand Prix circuit, but that was somewhat at the expense of the individual events which had done fine on their own, especially Skate Canada since 1973, Skate America since 1979 and the French event, since 1987. (Trivia question: what lady has won the variously-named French event the most? Answer: Surya Bonaly, five times. )

On the negative side, Mr. Cinquata was regarded as dictatorial (especially as time went on), power conscious, and “political.” When the ISU constitution required that he step down in 2014 because of age, he simply set the constitution aside and unilaterally extended his term for four more years, saying that no one else could lead the organization in preparation for the 2018 Olympic games. In his attempts to assume control of all figure skating events, he is blamed for killing professional skating competitions in the late 1990s. (IMHO this charge is somewhat exaggerated.)

Mr. C. is also criticized for bringing a speed skating mentality to the ISU. Money generated by the financial success of figure skating was siphoned off to pay for speed skating. For better of worse, rule changes like the IJS make the sport more like a race and puts less emphasis on the performing arts aspect. Even his election as ISU president was something of a coup by the speed skating side to undercut the figure skating side in the “power corridors” of the ISU. Cinquanta’s image as a financial wizard has diminished as figure skating declined in popularity in North America (although to be honest this is due to factors beyond the ISU’s control).

Personally, I don't see anything super awful about him, either. Any CEO is going to face criticism for how he runs the company.

Thank you! That is very interesting. Yes I agree with you, every CEO will be criticised. The unilateral self-reconduction as president is a big no though.

 

[mnm464]

Hey, I am just looking at it at the from the view of someone who knows nothing about ID(I am a singles skater and watch ID, so I do, but I'm talking about someone who turns on the TV and sees Nat. Int. Nat. World comp with little to no experience with the sport). I haven't really kept up with anything for ID since Grand prix due to my lack of time, so anything regarding Worlds is out of my knowledge scope.

 

[Sk8erGeek]

An earlier post mentioned a maximum number of Olympic participants. Each Synchro team for each country would have about 20 skaters. Also, Synchronized Skating is a mixed gender sport. There are no requirements or regulations surrounding the gender of skaters on a team. So, adding this sport would not guarantee equal female and male participants in the overall Winter Olympic games. If an excess of male skaters exist in a particular country or a male is not at the top in his singles career the Synchro team would provide them with another chance for an Olympic medal. Even if Ice Dance is no longer an Olympic Sport couldn't the Ice Dancers become Synchronized Skaters (with additional/different training and time)?

 

[ice coverage]

An earlier post mentioned a maximum number of Olympic participants. Each Synchro team for each country would have about 20 skaters. Also, Synchronized Skating is a mixed gender sport. There are no requirements or regulations surrounding the gender of skaters on a team. So, adding this sport would not guarantee equal female and male participants in the overall Winter Olympic games. If an excess of male skaters exist in a particular country or a male is not at the top in his singles career the Synchro team would provide them with another chance for an Olympic medal. ...

What the ISU has said previously:

e) A Synchronized Skating Team for the Winter Olympic Games shall consist of sixteen (16) Skaters and may have up to a maximum of two (2) alternates. A Team may include ladies only (if IOC so decides). The maximum number of entries for OWG is ten (10) Teams and the best placed six (6) Teams will qualify for the final Free Skating.
http://goldenskate.com/forum/showth...t-in-synchro&p=1095531&viewfull=1#post1095531​

... Even if Ice Dance is no longer an Olympic Sport couldn't the Ice Dancers become Synchronized Skaters (with additional/different training and time)?

I think this idea is quite unrealistic.

 

[gkelly]

I thought I had heard that the proposal was for synchronized skating to be all-female in the Olympics, but there was a possibility they would allow a maximum of two men per team.

I'd have to do some research to figure out where I heard that, how reliable it is, though.

 

[Sk8erGeek]

What the ISU has said previously:

e) A Synchronized Skating Team for the Winter Olympic Games shall consist of sixteen (16) Skaters and may have up to a maximum of two (2) alternates. A Team may include ladies only (if IOC so decides). The maximum number of entries for OWG is ten (10) Teams and the best placed six (6) Teams will qualify for the final Free Skating.
http://goldenskate.com/forum/showth...t-in-synchro&p=1095531&viewfull=1#post1095531​

I think this idea is quite unrealistic.

That would be anywhere from 64 to 180 athletes traveling to the Olympic games. I don't know what kind of message it sends to the public by excluding a gender. I have always felt all genders should participate in Synchronized Swimming and Rhythmic Gymnastics and feel the same about Synchronized Skating. Either way if the number of athletes is not an issue... Why else are they considering the elimination of Ice Dance from the Olympics?