Duhamel/Radford new element: throw quad lutz

[Snow63]

They will never be defeated in a competion ever again . D/r are 2018 Olympic champions .

I think you're wrong. Even if they will be undefeated this season (which is a pretty big IF), Sui/Han will overtake them easily until 2018. I'm not so confident about russian pairs, although if V/T will master 4Tw, and S/K will do 3-3-2 and quad throw (which they already doing succesfully) I can easily see them as medal contenders.
And yes, I think Trankov deserved that shade, doesn't mean he's not right about some things

 

[NoNameFace]

Considering how much shade Mr Yellow Pants has thrown their way, I say good for them--throw some back.

Really, pairs is rapidly becoming the most exciting --and entertaining!--of the disciplines.

This. The best way to confront thing said before will be at competition, NHK precisely where two pairs will meet.

As for Maxim's shades thrown at Duhamel/Radford regarding bringing back beauty to pairs skating...Just meh for me, beauty is kind of personal matter for me - I can appreciate technical difficulty, determination and commitment from Meaghan and Eric and this is one side of beauty of pairs skating, I adore also big, dramatic skating, lyrical and soft or fierce and emotional. But it's easy to understand that a little 'trash' talk builds self-confidence, even without right arsenal.

Regardless...fingers crossed for them, wish them a great season, without injuries!

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

That would be very sad =( Hopefully either chinese or V/T will do the job - after all D/R are more like side by side skating than pair skating.

I think this season they will prove people wrong about that. It seems that trying harder elements = side by side skating to many people. I dont think it would be sad that pairs skating ends up being defined by newer elements. That being said I wouldn't mind seeing S/H winning 2018 with quads and such... What would be sad is V/T or S/K winning with the same technical content as in 2014 and basically relying on PCS to stay ahead of their opponents instead of trying to better themselves technically (kinda like what Pang/Tong did this past season).

 

[moriel]

I think this season they will prove people wrong about that. It seems that trying harder elements = side by side skating to many people. I dont think it would be sad that pairs skating ends up being defined by newer elements. That being said I wouldn't mind seeing S/H winning 2018 with quads and such... What would be sad is V/T or S/K winning with the same technical content as in 2014 and basically relying on PCS to stay ahead of their opponents instead of trying to better themselves technically (kinda like what Pang/Tong did this past season).

It is not about trying harder elements. For me, it is the lack of connection and artistry - just 2 good single skaters skating on the same ring same time, unlike some other great pairs, like S/S or V/T.

 

[[email protected]]

May be the direct saying that D/R destroyed the beauty in pair skating is an overkill but there is some truth in it. There is no connection between them like you can see in V/T who love each other both on ice and in real life. Do not see them as long-term champs.

 

[Mista Ekko]

They will never be defeated in a competion ever again . D/r are 2018 Olympic champions .

Hmm... I wouldn't, People said that about Patrick Chan too,
They're defintely on top of things but there's still a long way to go

after all D/R are more like side by side skating than pair skating.

it is the lack of connection and artistry - just 2 good single skaters skating on the same ring same time, unlike some other great pairs

There is no connection between them like you can see in V/T who love each other both on ice and in real life

I feel like it's time to call BS on all of these type comments,
By now it feels like a hollow mantra

 

[Alvyne]

I feel like it's time to call BS on all of these type comments,
By now it feels like a hollow mantra

I'm with you. We've been hearing these since they teamed up and it didn't stop them from raising in the ranks and becoming world champions. And no it's not killing the beauty of the sport.

Pairs skating is more than just skating as one and love connections. It is also a competitive sport, and like any other sport, to be on top, you need the technical content and to raise it to stay on top. Maybe those who want to see "beautiful skating" and easy elements should just watch skating shows and exhibitions.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

It is not about trying harder elements. For me, it is the lack of connection and artistry - just 2 good single skaters skating on the same ring same time, unlike some other great pairs, like S/S or V/T.

Few pairs in general have the connection of S/S and V/T (two of the best pairs teams of all time). At least D/R are trying new elements. Other pairs teams don't make nearly as much of an effort to upgrade their difficulty. As Radford said, I'm curious to see if V/T will actually increase their difficulty (at least try a harder throw!) or rest on their past laurels knowing that their de facto PCS and GOE will be enough to win regardless of if they make an effort to incorporate harder elements.

It's just sad when teams like D/R upgrade their difficulty to unprecedented levels because they know they're not the most artistic team and need it to win -- and then they successfully hit that difficulty -- and are then knocked for not being the most artistic team or a "classic pair". Points from artistry is at the discretion of the judges, but points from technical elements is something that you have to be awarded for if you do it properly... so it makes sense to upgrade your difficulty (not that D/R haven't improved their artistry either).

People don't complain about teams winning with low difficulty like when K/S won the silver medal in Sochi with SBS 2A's, or V/T won without anything harder than a throw 3S/3L (which the past three pairs Gold medalists all did in the Olympics -- and B/S did 3STh and 3LTh back in 1998 Olympics!). But when teams upgrade to quad throws or harder SBS jumps, they get blasted for looking like singles skaters -- as if the definition of a pairs team is one that has connection/artistry but basic elements compared to singles skaters.

I could picture a pairs team in the next few decades being the first to land a SBS triple axel, and people would say "Meh, they lack connection. They don't deserve to win." Because with a quad throw (maybe two this season!), SBS 3Z (and possibly even a SBS 3F, which they've done previously), an improved twist, and good lifts and spins, that's what people are saying about D/R. V/T and S/S are amazing pairs teams and essentially the standard, so to trivialize D/R (especially when their difficulty is way harder than both of those teams) because they lack the same connection is pretty unfair.

 

[Krunchii]

I think I read that last year that V/T have been practicing a 3FTh but I can't remember exactly where but they may replace the 3STh with that. Also I think S/K's coach said that that they do have SBS 3S to replace the 2As but they didn't bring it out last season. I'm pretty sure both teams will up their difficulty so next season will be interesting. If D/R do land the quad lutz I hope I'm there to see it, I love watching history unfold.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

I think I read that last year that V/T have been practicing a 3FTh but I can't remember exactly where but they may replace the 3STh with that. Also I think S/K's coach said that that they do have SBS 3S to replace the 2As but they didn't bring it out last season. I'm pretty sure both teams will up their difficulty so next season will be interesting. If D/R do land the quad lutz I hope I'm there to see it, I love watching history unfold.

Well, that's good to hear. I hope both Russian teams up their game, because it'd be rather unfair if other teams increased their difficulty but didn't benefit because of a continued monstrous PCS gap.

 

[Snow63]

According to Klimov S/K's layout for their FS include 3-3-2 combo, 3S and 4STh, New lift. They're not sure if they will start to do these in the beginning of the season though.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

According to Klimov S/K's layout for their FS include 3-3-2 combo, 3S and 4STh, New lift. They're not sure if they will start to do these in the beginning of the season though.

3-3-2? Wow, now that would be something. I know Ksenia's done 3-3 vids but haven't seen Fedor do them. Good luck to them on that though.

 

[moriel]

The PCs gap is fair - everybody have their strong sides. Some pairs have an ok TES and monster PCs (V/T), others have monster TES and ok PCs (D/R) =) Not a mantra and not stopping it, as we are just stating the facts. Nw it is just a matter of taste =) I rather see pcs winning in pairs and dance, and tes wnning in singles =D

Of course, everybody would love a pair that did side by side quad jumps and all quad throws and twist and had the artistry and the connection of S/S for example.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

I'm with you. We've been hearing these since they teamed up and it didn't stop them from raising in the ranks and becoming world champions. And no it's not killing the beauty of the sport.

Pairs skating is more than just skating as one and love connections. It is also a competitive sport, and like any other sport, to be on top, you need the technical content and to raise it to stay on top. Maybe those who want to see "beautiful skating" and easy elements should just watch skating shows and exhibitions.

Exactly.

Also, kinda rude to say Duhamel and Radford don't love each other on the ice and off the ice. It's not romantic love but you get a very strong sense of friendship between them -- certainly more than other teams who portray love/passion/connection in their programs and then butt heads with each other afterwards. You would never see Meagan glare at Eric the way Ksenia did to Fedor at Euros or Wenjing did to Cong at NHK.

 

[Mista Ekko]

The PCs gap is fair - everybody have their strong sides. Some pairs have an ok TES and monster PCs (V/T), others have monster TES and ok PCs (D/R) =) Not a mantra and not stopping it, as we are just stating the facts.

saying D\R have a lack of connection on the ice is not fact, They have good connection imo

Other than that i agree with you on using one's strong sides

 

[Snow63]

This argument is like a broken record. Everyone have their own truth.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

The PCs gap is fair - everybody have their strong sides. Some pairs have an ok TES and monster PCs (V/T), others have monster TES and ok PCs (D/R) =) Not a mantra and not stopping it, as we are just stating the facts. Nw it is just a matter of taste =) I rather see pcs winning in pairs and dance, and tes wnning in singles =D

Of course, everybody would love a pair that did side by side quad jumps and all quad throws and twist and had the artistry and the connection of S/S for example.

Oh lordy, the PCS gap is definitely not fair. In Sochi SP, V/T were a full 5 points ahead of S/K and even Pang/Tong, and over 6 points ahead of the Canadian teams. That's pretty significant -- it's the value of a throw. i.e. V/T could omit an entire element and still be ahead of those teams skating cleanly. In the FS they were 6 points ahead of S/K and S/S, 9 above P/T, and 10-13 points of PCS ahead of the Canadian teams. This total 11-18 point difference is massive... even if the other teams upgraded their elements to quad throws and twists, they still wouldn't be able to make up the PCS gap. Note that S/K went clean and had an 11 point deficit in PCS. MT-M were almost clean and had an 18 point PCS gap between the two programs compared to V/T -- and V/T weren't even clean themselves!

The PCS gap was fair when judges would give the top teams 8.75-9.00 and then the rest of the top ten would get like 7.00-8.5. The problem is when judges started giving top teams 9.75 and 10.00's like candy and still kept the rest of the top 10/second-tier skaters in the 7.00-8.5 range. This started creating a PCS gap, so top skaters would automatically get a 5 point advantage over a 4th-6th place team in the SP and a 10+ point advantage in the FS. You saw this with Kostner getting a bronze over Pogorilaya at Worlds two years ago, thanks to a personal best PCS and Anna being a relative newcomer. And because element values remained relatively unchanged, it would be nearly impossible for a second tier skater/team to beat a top skater/team, even if they had much much greater difficulty. We might see this next season if V/T have the same difficulty but still win over teams like D/R and S/H attempting much harder difficulty, because they still have this PCS gap.

Granted, Sochi scores were crazy gifts to the Russians (who still earned their medals obviously) so the PCS gap won't be as significant. Still, with "sane" judging, if V/T have a clean SP, their PCS will be around 37-38 points compared to 35-ish for D/R and 32-ish for S/H. In the FS, if V/T skate cleanly they'll have PCS around 76 points, compared to D/R who are around 71 and S/H who are around 68. That's around an 7-8 point advantage from PCS alone against D/R and a 13-14 point advantage over S/H. So both of those teams have to make up the difference with higher base values - essentially they have to do quad elements and harder SBS elements just to erase the PCS gap while V/T don't have to attempt that.

What I'm hoping is that the GOE scores given out are less outrageous, and D/R and S/H's PCS rises so that V/T are forced to skate well. I can picture at least one Kostner/Pogo Chan/Ten instance though where V/T will skate not at their best but still end up ahead of a team with harder difficulty that goes clean.

 

[Mista Ekko]

I agree that the PCS gap leading to Olympics wasn't fair, V\T were good enough to have won it even without,
And i don't think a lot of people agree that they were 10+ points per competition for PCS better than all of their other rivals (especially S\S)

Granted, Sochi scores were crazy gifts to the Russians (who still earned their medals obviously) so the PCS gap won't be as significant.

While this is in fact true, I'm sure seeing V\T scores throughout the season is the kinda thing that made pairs like S\S change strategies and break their bodies on 3A

 

[Violet Bliss]

So which team is raising the bar on connectedness? :think:

I say it takes loads of connectedness to do the most difficult lifts and throws.

D and R are awesome.

 

[moriel]

I agree that the PCS gap leading to Olympics wasn't fair, V\T were good enough to have won it even without,
And i don't think a lot of people agree that they were 10+ points per competition for PCS better than all of their other rivals (especially S\S)



While this is in fact true, I'm sure seeing V\T scores throughout the season is the kinda thing that made pairs like S\S change strategies and break their bodies on 3A

honestly, i'd rather keep sochi results out as controversial and look at the other compos from the same year instead.

Anyways, as for D/R - my point is that they have no guarantee of being absolute champions during next 3 years =) Even with quads.
Although i do worry that many teams will break their bodies trying quads while they could have worked on higher GOE/PCs