Duhamel/Radford new element: throw quad lutz

[Barb]

I think it is will be interesting for V/T because they are russian, olympic champions trying to get their second olympic gold medal at Korea with basically the same program.
Yuna is korean, olympic champion tried to get her second medal at Sochi with the same safe layout. V/T should to get the message and pray for koreans are not vengeful.
D/R are risking everything, it is not only they decided to do difficult elements and the next day they did it, they worked very hard while V/T were in their honey moon, so people saying they don´t should win not matter what are crazy, when the teams will be in the competition it is a lot more probable that D/R will have a fall with their difficult content than V/T forget look at each other during the program.

 

[Krunchii]

I think it is will be interesting for V/T because they are russian, olympic champions trying to get their second olympic gold medal at Korea with basically the same program.
Yuna is korean, olympic champion tried to get her second medal at Sochi with the same safe layout. V/T should to get the message and pray for koreans are not vengeful.
D/R are risking everything, it is not only they decided to do difficult elements and the next day they did it, they worked very hard while V/T were in their honey moon, so people saying they don´t should win not matter what are crazy, when the teams will be in the competition it is a lot more probable that D/R will have a fall with their difficult content than V/T forget look at each other during the program.

V/T performed in All That Skate after the Olympics and the crowd seemed to respond to them really well though. I've seen favourable opinions of Elena R. and Liza T. from Koreans too, I think they're only bitter about Adelina (when they should really be channeling the hate at the judges) but I don't think it's a big deal for V/T to go to Pyeongchang in terms of the audience.

 

[MaxSwagg]

V/T used to do 3FTh but they stopped because she kept get of injured. Now they are doing it, as well as 3S+2T+2T. They also were successfully doing a 4Tw before his surgery. It's not that D/R are increasing difficulty, but that they're merely doing it to compensate for their lack of willingness of desire to improve on fundamentals of pairs skating. She needs to improve her lift positions, they telegraph almost everything, Duhamel has a completely unrefined look...they come off like they're two friends who just decided to have a go at it and never had the insight to improve these things. Their tricks are sometimes good but everything else leaves much to be desired. I just don't understand why they don't care.

The PCS gap between the two pairs is absolutely fair. D/R are 10 points less than V/T. They shouldn't be getting components higher than in the 8s, and those telegraphed Lutzes and throws shouldn't get more than +1s. It's time for people to stop overlooking this things. It pains me that we've gone from S/S, V/T, and P/T to this.

 

[HanDomi]

I am all in on Sui Han boat but it will be amazing if they can land two quad throws

 

[anyanka]

I know they are pretty new to the Senior scene, but I'd add Seguin/Bilodeau to that list. Just a hunch, I realize.

Yes, thank you

 

[anyanka]

I'm with you. We've been hearing these since they teamed up and it didn't stop them from raising in the ranks and becoming world champions. And no it's not killing the beauty of the sport.

Pairs skating is more than just skating as one and love connections. It is also a competitive sport, and like any other sport, to be on top, you need the technical content and to raise it to stay on top. Maybe those who want to see "beautiful skating" and easy elements should just watch skating shows and exhibitions.

^ Bingo

 

[andromache]

Some skaters'/teams' strengths are in presentation, and others in technical elements. The scoring system allows you to lose to others on one half, while still beating them in the other--and that being enough to win. I would rather see the technically-strong skaters win by their TES rather than receiving inflated PCS to match. This past season, D/R and Liza T. really upped the game in TES, and by enough to dominate fairly. (I acknowledge that D/R received MORE inflation than Liza, but I think pairs PCS tends to be slightly more generous than ladies. In 2013, V/T received about one point more than Yuna Kim in PCS--I compare these two because both skates are generally considered to be masterpieces).

What I didn't like seeing is their PCS rise to match/beat skaters who should rightfully have better PCS. I don't have any problem with technically-strong skaters dominating the field, but I'd like to see the scoring be a little more fair--i.e., no PCS bonuses for technical content.

I don't really have a dog in this fight though. I don't get all the V/T hype--whenever I watch them I expect to see magic based on what other people say, but they've never really awed me on an emotional level like Bereznaya/Sikharulidze, Shen/Zhao, and S/S did, and I can't figure out why and I feel like I'm missing out! D/R seem like fun people and they're exciting to watch. I really, really enjoyed S/K's Addam's Family program and actually preferred it to V/T's JCS, but they've left me cold since then.

Basically, I'm waiting for one of the Chinese pairs or possibly Tarasova/Morozov to inspire me; although I'm looking forward to see how the D/R and V/T (possibly S/K) rivalry plays out.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

The PCS gap between the two pairs is absolutely fair. D/R are 10 points less than V/T. They shouldn't be getting components higher than in the 8s, and those telegraphed Lutzes and throws shouldn't get more than +1s. It's time for people to stop overlooking this things. It pains me that we've gone from S/S, V/T, and P/T to this.

You mean like V/T's throw landings getting overlooked and them still getting ridiculously high GOE?
3LTh: Getting mostly +1/+2's, with a hand down? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l30Ua6KTEfM#t=7m20s
3STh: Getting mostly +3's, with a foot down? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l30Ua6KTEfM#t=7m39s
http://www.isuresults.com/results/owg2014/owg14_Pairs_FS_Scores.pdf

As far as telegraphed SBS lutzes, there is nothing telegraphed about this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R5Hnm5hQoc4#t=1m13s They actually do steps (choctaws) in both directions in the leadup to it instead of just stroking around the corner of the ice. Their preparation into the jump isn't any more telegraphed than many other pairs going into their triple jumps, here's P/T going into SBS 3T (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HYcctx92ZzM#t=50). While P/T have more speed/flow, D/R have a more difficult set up, and of course the jump itself is way harder.

As far as D/R's throws shouldn't get more than +1s? Firstly, their quad throw rarely does average more than +1 even when clean, secondly their 3Z throw has her literally being flipped around his head and then she goes directly into her takeoff edge. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JoaFOOfjNdk#t=3m21s You won't find any harder entry into a pairs throw - and I challenge you to find one.

And if you think they haven't made efforts to improve, that's completely unfounded. Go compare their skates from 5 years ago to their Worlds 2015 programs. Their interpretation while improved has much to be desired, but they have certainly increased their speed, and have much more/harder transitions and their overall choreography is challenging and intricate. I don't get the whole "two single skaters" either, because their unison is also very good, IMO and consistent throughout their programs. If singles skaters = they do hard elements that singles skaters do, then sure, but they're very obviously a pairs team.

 

[whatif]

Everything should be put in comparison. I saw V/T, D/R, and S/K live skating back to back and I am sorry but the pairs skating quality in the former two pairs is so much superior to D/R that one can not notice. Judge or not. If all teams execute all their elements clean, there is just no way one could place D/R above the other two and even if V/T miss an element, they still create sufficient gap in the quality, effortlessness and precision each element is executed that it's really hard for many teams to catch on. Kinda similar situation to Pchan in mens. I don't think that's the case with S/K yet, with their much lower technical content than the other two. However S/K are still much better when it comes to pairs elements than D/R.

I think among Canadians, the junior team S/B come dangerously close to combining the best of Canadian and Russian styles in a winning way. Chinese should be afraid of them.
And I would put my money on Y/J as the Chinese team to win Olympics rather than S/H.

 

[Krunchii]

Everything should be put in comparison. I saw V/T, D/R, and S/K live skating back to back and I am sorry but the pairs skating quality in the former two pairs is so much superior to D/R that one can not notice. Judge or not. If all teams execute all their elements clean, there is just no way one could place D/R above the other two and even if V/T miss an element, they still create sufficient gap in the quality, effortlessness and precision each element is executed that it's really hard for many teams to catch on. Kinda similar situation to Pchan in mens. I don't think that's the case with S/K yet, with their much lower technical content than the other two. However S/K are still much better when it comes to pairs elements than D/R.

I think among Canadians, the junior team S/B come dangerously close to combining the best of Canadian and Russian styles in a winning way. Chinese should be afraid of them.
And I would put my money on Y/J as the Chinese team to win Olympics rather than S/H.

Haha that's funny because Iliushechkina/Moscovitch are literally a Russian and a Canadian together. I liked their LP last season, I thought it was a good mix of styles but they need to gel more and find their consistency, I think they'll end up as a good mid level team but not top.

For now I think Sui/Han are in the running because they have more experience for 2018, maybe Y/J will have a better chance in 2022, either way China is going to have to nurture all their teams carefully for 2022 if they want a medal.

 

[[email protected]]

This argument is like a broken record. Everyone have their own truth.

I wonder if there is a correlation between those who constantly complain about "russian ladies' inflated pcs" and those who defend D/R here not paying attention to their imo unemotional skating from one element to another.

 

[Mista Ekko]

Everything should be put in comparison. I saw V/T, D/R, and S/K live skating back to back and I am sorry but the pairs skating quality in the former two pairs is so much superior to D/R that one can not notice. Judge or not. If all teams execute all their elements clean, there is just no way one could place D/R above the other two and even if V/T miss an element, they still create sufficient gap in the quality, effortlessness and precision each element is executed that it's really hard for many teams to catch on. Kinda similar situation to Pchan in mens. I don't think that's the case with S/K yet, with their much lower technical content than the other two. However S/K are still much better when it comes to pairs elements than D/R.

I feel like people allow themselves a lot of bogus comments as facts...

V\T. S\K and D\R skating back to back?
That must've been like 2 years ago, I feel like that isn't fair, Nevermind if it's correct or not.

How are S\K "much" better in pair elements, Both have level 3 twist and the rest level 4 usually and they get around the same scores in components,
And D\R's lifts travel more i think, In short both pairs have fine pair elements i see no point in diminishing.

 

[aromaticchicken]

As far as D/R's throws shouldn't get more than +1s? Firstly, their quad throw rarely does average more than +1 even when clean, secondly their 3Z throw has her literally being flipped around his head and then she goes directly into her takeoff edge. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JoaFOOfjNdk#t=3m21s You won't find any harder entry into a pairs throw - and I challenge you to find one.

Oh goodness. Sounds like a new thread possibility

But in the meanwhile.. How about Sui/Han LP 3STh, from a prolonged choreographic lift into it?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHugFaoP6AM&t=2m57s

Swoon.

 

[HanDomi]

Oh goodness. Sounds like a new thread possibility

But in the meanwhile.. How about Sui/Han LP 3STh, from a prolonged choreographic lift into it?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHugFaoP6AM&t=2m57s

Swoon.

and no delay at all in transition to throw

 

[gravy]

and no delay at all in transition to throw

Better ride out, air position, height, distance.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Haha that's funny because Iliushechkina/Moscovitch are literally a Russian and a Canadian together. I liked their LP last season, I thought it was a good mix of styles but they need to gel more and find their consistency, I think they'll end up as a good mid level team but not top.

For now I think Sui/Han are in the running because they have more experience for 2018, maybe Y/J will have a better chance in 2022, either way China is going to have to nurture all their teams carefully for 2022 if they want a medal.

I'm very excited to see what I/M come up with this season. They're very much in a finding each other phase, and I anticipate things will eventually "click" and they will be one of the top teams (at least enough to win a GP medal, but likely not a World medal). They already try two different SBS triples, and they have some fantastic lifts and a unique style that isn't usually seen from Canadian teams.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Oh goodness. Sounds like a new thread possibility

But in the meanwhile.. How about Sui/Han LP 3STh, from a prolonged choreographic lift into it?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHugFaoP6AM&t=2m57s

Swoon.

They've done that similar entry into a quad throw! S/H definitely are the team with the least hesitation into their throws and for their size I'd say they arguably have the biggest throws - he essentially flings her and she somehow finds a way to land.

D/R have a similar choreographic lift entry into their SP throw lutz from last year https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R5Hnm5hQoc4#t=1m35s ... it's not nearly the flow/effortlessness that Sui/Han gets on their throw but it's still quite difficult to maintain that speed doing a transition like that and I like the little falling leaf transition out of the landing to show control. It's hard enough to execute the proper timing on the takeoff of a lutz (with the counter-rotation), but to do that synchronized is even tougher, whereas a 3T or 3S you can time your entry easier and not have to worry about staying on the correct edge or taking off at just the right moment. Which is why D/R's SBS 3Z are particularly difficult for pairs (and not just because the lutz is a hard jump to begin with).

As far as S/K being much better in pairs elements, both teams have pros/cons over the other. I think S/K are superior in throws in terms of distance/less hesitation/flow on the landings (but D/R have harder transitions into their 3ZTh and try a quad). S/K's flow on their SBS jumps is superior but the jumps themselves are easier. D/R have harder lifts (particularly the CW/CCW lift into an inside spread eagle), but Ksenia is more flexible lending to more variety of positions (I disagree that Meagan's lift positions need a ton of improvement... her star lift position has pretty decent extension, not Haven-level extension obvs but it's still solid). D/R have a higher 3Tw and more speed/flow, but S/K have less hesitation. SBS spins and death spiral are pretty strong for both teams.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Everything should be put in comparison. I saw V/T, D/R, and S/K live skating back to back and I am sorry but the pairs skating quality in the former two pairs is so much superior to D/R that one can not notice. Judge or not. If all teams execute all their elements clean, there is just no way one could place D/R above the other two and even if V/T miss an element, they still create sufficient gap in the quality, effortlessness and precision each element is executed that it's really hard for many teams to catch on. Kinda similar situation to Pchan in mens. I don't think that's the case with S/K yet, with their much lower technical content than the other two. However S/K are still much better when it comes to pairs elements than D/R.

I think among Canadians, the junior team S/B come dangerously close to combining the best of Canadian and Russian styles in a winning way. Chinese should be afraid of them.
And I would put my money on Y/J as the Chinese team to win Olympics rather than S/H.

When did you see them skating back to back live?

I agree that the fundamental pair qualities of V/T (at least when we last saw them) are superior to D/R currently, although I'd say D/R have caught up or surpassed S/K in many areas, particularly speed/choreo/transitions. In the past I think it would have been impossible to conceive D/R or S/H beating V/T because of the huge PCS gap, but I think both teams have improved their overall skating to a point where it's a fairer fight -- i.e. if they go clean with the quads and harder elements, that should at least force V/T to skate to win and that should also defeat a clean S/K (pending S/K trying more difficult elements).

 

[whatif]

When did you see them skating back to back live?

I agree that the fundamental pair qualities of V/T (at least when we last saw them) are superior to D/R currently, although I'd say D/R have caught up or surpassed S/K in many areas, particularly speed/choreo/transitions. In the past I think it would have been impossible to conceive D/R or S/H beating V/T because of the huge PCS gap, but I think both teams have improved their overall skating to a point where it's a fairer fight -- i.e. if they go clean with the quads and harder elements, that should at least force V/T to skate to win and that should also defeat a clean S/K (pending S/K trying more difficult elements).

Short Programme ICEBERG PALACE.

Again my comment was about impression of watching the teams skating live not what each team is trying to do. All teams working hard to improve in different areas. My point is V/T and S/K are in better position because their basic skating is so much superior that they can afford mistakes and easier content it is much harder to D/R. The latter need to take bigger risks, which I actually appreciate to a certain degree as it pushes others.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Short Programme ICEBERG PALACE.

Again my comment was about impression of watching the teams skating live not what each team is trying to do. All teams working hard to improve in different areas. My point is V/T and S/K are in better position because their basic skating is so much superior that they can afford mistakes and easier content it is much harder to D/R. The latter need to take bigger risks, which I actually appreciate to a certain degree as it pushes others.

Agreed that V/T and S/K have superior basics so they can afford easier content. My point is that D/R (and S/H) have improved their overall skating to a point where V/T and S/K shouldn't be given the benefit of their basics and have a multi-error cushion over those teams. D/R and S/H have improved their skating and content to catch up (and IMO surpass) S/K, and they have also improved to a point where V/T shouldn't beat a clean D/R or S/H if they have many errors. A clean V/T should still be able to beat a clean D/R and S/H, but not if they have significant errors. And the judges need to be fair when giving GOE to V/T and penalize them accordingly for any obvious errors (and no, I don't mean +3 becomes a +2 when she touches a hand down). Top skaters work very hard to build their artistry and hold that advantage over the field but it shouldn't be a safety net when they make errors, allowing them to stand ahead of second-tier skaters no matter how much difficulty or how clean the latter skates.