2015 Skate Canada Mens Free Skate

[Li'Kitsu]

But what this competition established was that at least in the judges' minds Chan is significantly enough the better overall skater - enough to make up for Hanyu's TES advantage and keep Chan competitive with him.

It was especially obvious in the SP, where Hanyu received even slightly higher PCS.

And it was even more obvious back in 2013, when in TEB Chan had a 3+ PCS cushion over clean Hanyu in the SP, and he beat Hanyu in the LP PCS both times by 14+ points. And we all know this strong perception of Chan being the overall better skater gave him the OG... oh, wait. The judges aren't scoring who is the overall better skater in that one event, they score who put out the better skate on that specific night. And on that specific night, where Chan was on and Hanyu wasn't, they were right with the PCS they gave (there were comments about Hanyu not being at his best PCS wise already before Chan skated... from Hanyu fans at that). It's not a judgement about who is the better skater in general, it's that specific night (and that's how it should be).

Additional headscratcher: I don't think the majority of fans ever said Hanyu was a better overall skater than Chan anyway. The main point seems to be he's close enough to Chan so that his massive difficulty gets him the upper hand over Chan, if both skate equally well.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Jin is a sensational jumper & I can not wait for his GP performances. That being said, while I don't condone bashing him for his lack of presentation, I'll have to agree with the critique if he is still performing like he was at last Junior Worlds. Jumps are crucial in FS, but they are not the only thing.

There's nothing wrong with critiquing lack of artistry... But people are acting as though technically superb skates aren't worthy of merit or appreciation. To some posters, everything is either an artistic masterpiece or garbage.

It's just unfortunate that no matter how well someone like Jin skates people will default to negativity just because he's not a Hanyu or Chan.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

So what if Hanyu exudes youth? That doesn't make someone less capable of a performer. Adele Exarchopoulos at 19 years old gave one of the most profound performances of all time in Blue Is the Warmest Color.

Hanyu pays more attention to his music than Patrick does. Perhaps you missed it, but Patrick himself said he just performed on autopilot out there. Training is obviously super important, so it's not bad that someone is able to go through the motions perfectly in their performance, but there's an extra level of connection missing. And in these particular performances, Chan did overall interpret the music better than Hanyu, because he movements were more clear and unflinching throughout. However, there are little moments where Hanyu still shows he's more INTO it than Chan is.

Chan said he was on autopilot as in he wasn't overthinking his elements and let the program happen instead of forcing it. Not as in he was just going through mechanical motion. There's no way that he would get the scores he got if he were going on autopilot in the sense that I think you're (unsurprisingly) interpreting it as. Also I'm surprised you actually admitted Chan's interpretation was better given your previous statements regarding Hanyu's superiority of components outside of skating skills. You actually admitted that in a particular set of performances something like interpretation can vary from competition to competition. And actually kind of complimented Chan instead of being typically staunchly critical of anything he does. Good for you!

And I didn't say it made Hanyu less capable as a performer (in fact, he's an amazing performer) but by comparison, Chan exhibits greater maturity and as Mathman/Euro commentators/etc. have pointed out there is a notable difference in how they come across. Lipinski was also a very capable performer - who, like Hanyu, had higher difficulty over other favourites - but she didn't have the maturity of Kwan.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

It was especially obvious in the SP, where Hanyu received even slightly higher PCS.

And it was even more obvious back in 2013, when in TEB Chan had a 3+ PCS cushion over clean Hanyu in the SP, and he beat Hanyu in the LP PCS both times by 14+ points. And we all know this strong perception of Chan being the overall better skater gave him the OG... oh, wait. The judges aren't scoring who is the overall better skater in that one event, they score who put out the better skate on that specific night. And on that specific night, where Chan was on and Hanyu wasn't, they were right with the PCS they gave (there were comments about Hanyu not being at his best PCS wise already before Chan skated... from Hanyu fans at that). It's not a judgement about who is the better skater in general, it's that specific night (and that's how it should be).

Additional headscratcher: I don't think the majority of fans ever said Hanyu was a better overall skater than Chan anyway. The main point seems to be he's close enough to Chan so that his massive difficulty gets him the upper hand over Chan, if both skate equally well.

The SP scoring was appropriate, but Chan had errors on all 3 jumping passes including a fall, and Hanyu at least had two clean passes (though the 3Z+2T was wonky and didn't receive points). So the judges still putting them almost on par with each other given Chan's major errors shows that they still favour Chan's overall skating (although Hanyu fully deserved higher PCS in that segment). Same with Ten and Aaron at Skate America - Ten's PCS for his disastrous skate was only 4 points behind an almost clean skate from Aaron. Another positive sign - at least the judges are now marking down error-filled performances moreso than in the past and marking up cleaner performances, even from putative "second-tier" skaters like Aaron.

I would assume that Hanyu, if he had replicated his performance from Cup of China last season at this year's Skate Canada, wouldn't have received 84 points PCS given he skated very well and only earned 88 points of PCS. And it's also apparent that judges are also marking performance because artistically Hanyu's been better in the past and this was reflected in his PCS staying below 90.

 

[Blades of Passion]

Lipinski was also a very capable performer - who, like Hanyu, had higher difficulty over other favourites - but she didn't have the maturity of Kwan.

"Maturity" again, LOL. She had performance, she had effective choreography, she skated TO her music. She deserved far higher scores in all of those areas than the "more mature" Maria Butyrskaya and even over Kwan in the performance component, on that special Olympic occasion.

And if you can't see that Chan is definitely just going through the motions with that pasted-on choreography where he lifts his arms up and *tries* to artistically drop them in a sharp manner one at a time, then I think your taste is just bad. He's not moving like that because the music is running through him and he feels compelled to do it, as you will see from Takahashi, Lambiel, or many others. He's just doing it because that's what the choreographer told him to do. It is a lack of real interpretation. He deserves a 10 for Skating Skills but not any other component. He shouldn't even be in the 9's for Interpretation, nor Transitions for that program actually. The exit out of the 3Loop is brilliant and he covers the ice so well throughout, but what actual inbetweens are happening in this program? It's not as difficult as the scores he received would lead someone to believe.

 

[nocturnalis]

Hanyu's *** knows he has asthma. Losing is a risk he takes when adds is so much difficulty in the second half. And #keepinitreal, it's not like he's out here spitting out clean longs consistently outside if practice anyway.

 

[viennaskater]

And if you can't see that Chan is definitely just going through the motions with that pasted-on choreography where he lifts his arms up and *tries* to artistically drop them in a sharp manner one at a time, then I think your taste is just bad. He's not moving like that because the music is running through him and he feels compelled to do it, as you will see from Takahashi, Lambiel, or many others. He's just doing it because that's what the choreographer told him to do. It is a lack of real interpretation. He deserves a 10 for Skating Skills but not any other component. He shouldn't even be in the 9's for Interpretation, nor Transitions for that program actually. The exit out of the 3Loop is brilliant and he covers the ice so well throughout, but what actual inbetweens are happening in this program? It's not as difficult as the scores he received would lead someone to believe.

Thanks for that - you've put into words what goes through my mind every time I see him skate. It's as if artistic, fluid choreography does not come naturally to him, whereas I could watch the likes of Hanyu skate all day. Also, Timothy Dolensky may be a new kid on the block, but he has a natural grace.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

The RULE is that you can't repeat a jump in the SP. Hanyu's first 2T was already an invalid element. It didn't exist. Therefore, his 3Lutz+2Toe should have been credited..

Um, you just said the rule is that you can't repeat a jump in the SP. He repeated a 2T. His first element was invalidated, but that doesn't mean he didn't actually do the same jump twice and that "it didn't exist".

And, if you want to get cute about it... if his 2T jumping pass "didn't exist", then shouldn't Hanyu have been allowed to throw in an extra quad attempt right after the lutz? But then you'd say the computer shouldn't recognize a 4th jumping pass attempt when only 3 are allowed -- but then that would mean the computer would have to acknowledge the "existence" of the 2T as one of the three jumping passes!

Furthermore, how do you know that it was for certain the computer coding that invalidated the combo, and not the technical specialist acknowledging that, "Hey, you already did a 2T, and the rule states you can't do another one... so your combo will be marked as invalid."?

 

[Blades of Passion]

And, if you want to get cute about it... if his 2T jumping pass "didn't exist", then shouldn't Hanyu have been allowed to throw in an extra quad attempt right after the lutz?

The jump doesn't exist, the element box does. I think it's cuter that you think he could found room in the program to attempt another quad.

But it's sad that you are trying to argue in favor of something so absurd. This is not how to improve the sport and it's something literally nobody agrees with. You don't need to celebrate counterfeit money.

 

[MaxSwagg]

Hanyu's *** knows he has asthma. Losing is a risk he takes when adds is so much difficulty in the second half. And #keepinitreal, it's not like he's out here spitting out clean longs consistently outside if practice anyway.

I'm sure he's just happy to be skating...or living...since, you know, he almost died in an earthquake and tsunami. I'm sure he doesn't take anything for granted and wants to do clean performances.

 

[Li'Kitsu]

The SP scoring was appropriate, but Chan had errors on all 3 jumping passes including a fall, and Hanyu at least had two clean passes (though the 3Z+2T was wonky and didn't receive points). So the judges still putting them almost on par with each other given Chan's major errors shows that they still favour Chan's overall skating (although Hanyu fully deserved higher PCS in that segment). Same with Ten and Aaron at Skate America - Ten's PCS for his disastrous skate was only 4 points behind an almost clean skate from Aaron. Another positive sign - at least the judges are now marking down error-filled performances moreso than in the past and marking up cleaner performances, even from putative "second-tier" skaters like Aaron.

I would assume that Hanyu, if he had replicated his performance from Cup of China last season at this year's Skate Canada, wouldn't have received 84 points PCS given he skated very well and only earned 88 points of PCS. And it's also apparent that judges are also marking performance because artistically Hanyu's been better in the past and this was reflected in his PCS staying below 90.

I don't get the context to what I was talking about...? :roll9:

And why are you bringing up Hanyus worst moment in his whole career, CoC LP from last year, without any reason or context in this discussion or event?

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

The jump doesn't exist, the element box does. I think it's cuter that you think he could found room in the program to attempt another quad.

But it's sad that you are trying to argue in favor of something so absurd. This is not how to improve the sport and it's something literally nobody agrees with. You don't need to celebrate counterfeit money.

It's not counterfeit. It's the rules. There are plenty of scoring issues in CoP that need to be addressed but as it stands, if you repeat a jump element in the SP (not in the same combo), it's invalidated. A bad rule yes, but Hanyu should be aware of that and should be docked if he is in violation of it. Should the rule be revised? Absolutely. But all the guys are playing on the same field under the same rules, and it's not like he got singled out (or doubled out, rather) because of his OWN error.

Also, if anyone were capable of throwing in a random quad, it'd be Hanyu.

And you're also making it seem like the only reason Hanyu lost was because of this particular rule. The rules didn't make Hanyu double his quad (a loss of 10 points) and turn his 3T to a 2T (which even without being completely negated, would have been a loss of 3-4 points) in the SP; or fall on his 3Z (a loss of about 4 points) or a hand down on his 3rd quad (a loss of 2 points), or turn a 3A+3T into a 3A+1T (a loss of about 5 points) in his freeskate. He lost by 12 points, with deductions/errors likely costing him about 25 potential points (if you factor in GOE), and you're suggesting the competition was based around acomputer denying him 7 points. Also, the rules didn't make Chan skate that brilliant freeskate, and this whole "the-computer-robbed-him" rhetoric trivializes Chan's deserved win.

Hanyu was within striking distance of Chan but didn't even beat him in the freeskate -- although, I suppose you think Hanyu deserved 93 PCS and Chan sub-90, or whatever mathematical combination would allow Hanyu to win if his SP combo hadn't been negated). It wasn't a computer that cost him the victory, it was Hanyu himself. And even still, Hanyu should be proud (like Chan) with bouncing back and delivering an excellent FS (even if it had some costly errors).


As far as affecting his mentality going into the FS had he placed higher in the SP, that's ridiculous as there's no way of determining how he would have skated if he had a lead (...maybe he would have been overconfident or too comfortable?... maybe Chan's brilliant skate would have shaken him up and he wouldn't have almost landed 3 quads like he did?... maybe insert-another-speculative-comment-as-if-we-intimately-know-what-a-skater's-mentality-is-comment?). If anything it was nice to see Chan and Hanyu not in first, and letting them know that if they make mistakes, they are vulnerable and open to the same scrutiny all other skaters are open to (not that their PCS scores reflected that).

 

[Mathman]

"Maturity" again, LOL.

ARTISTIC maturity. ARTISTIC maturity. It's not about how old the performer is.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

ARTISTIC maturity. ARTISTIC maturity. It has nothing to do with how old the performer is.

Thank you for explaining this to BoP. Ten is a more "mature" skater than Amodio, for example.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

I don't get the context to what I was talking about...? :roll9:

And why are you bringing up Hanyus worst moment in his whole career, CoC LP from last year, without any reason or context in this discussion or event?

The context was that judges (at least in this particular competition) are cracking down on PCS more. In the past, a program with several falls would get the PCS you saw at CoC for Hanyu or Worlds 2013 for Chan. Now it's becoming more apparent that judges will give PCS scores and wins to cleaner performances (see: Medvedeva), and not just performances executed by putatively "artistic"/more popular skaters. It's why Max was able to win Skate America, and one of the reasons Chan defeated Hanyu here (although in this case, Chan and Hanyu are both viewed as artistic).

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

"Maturity" again, LOL. She had performance, she had effective choreography, she skated TO her music. She deserved far higher scores in all of those areas than the "more mature" Maria Butyrskaya and even over Kwan in the performance component, on that special Olympic occasion.

And if you can't see that Chan is definitely just going through the motions with that pasted-on choreography where he lifts his arms up and *tries* to artistically drop them in a sharp manner one at a time, then I think your taste is just bad. He's not moving like that because the music is running through him and he feels compelled to do it, as you will see from Takahashi, Lambiel, or many others. He's just doing it because that's what the choreographer told him to do. It is a lack of real interpretation. He deserves a 10 for Skating Skills but not any other component. He shouldn't even be in the 9's for Interpretation, nor Transitions for that program actually. The exit out of the 3Loop is brilliant and he covers the ice so well throughout, but what actual inbetweens are happening in this program? It's not as difficult as the scores he received would lead someone to believe.

You are entitled to your opinion. But I thoroughly disagree, and so do the judges. How is the sharp manner of Chan's hands any less genuine or any more "just-going-through-my-choreography" than Hanyu *trying* to artistically stretch out his arms and hands dramatically on his Ina Bauer to match the music (especially when his arms are rather lax throughout the second half)? Or any less "choreographed" than the section of Four Seasons where Lambiel just stands there and moves his hands around abstractly. It's all choreography - they are all compelled to do it because that is what they have planned and practiced -- although with Lambiel/Hanyu it's the music running through them, and with Chan it's apparently contrived. Whatver. I bet you're one of those people who will say "Watching Chan close his eyes to start his program makes me cringe", but then gush when Hanyu does the very same thing to start his SP. You don't like Chan (not that you have to), so any artistry he shows will always be perceived by you as a pasted-on attempt to be artistic, and you will never see otherwise no matter what he does to improve or how well he skates or how genuine he actually is. Thankfully, Chan isn't skating to appease your opinions of him; he's skating for the judges in order to win -- WHICH he did -- and for the audience members who appreciate his skating. :gclap:

Also, you're one to accuse people of bad taste... four words: 50 Shades of Grey.

 

[Violet Bliss]

Are we having two Chan vs Hanyu threads going?

Chan messed up his SP but Hanyu out messed him.

Hanyu delivered an amazing LP, especially for the first GP of the season, but Chan out amazed him, especially for coming back after a year and a half off ISU competition.

They were fabulous in this first head to head of the season. GPF is the next and brand new battle. I'm hoping for and looking forward to both being even more fabulous.

 

[MIM]

I always enjoy reading posts as knowledgable as yours (and a very sharp and sometimes snarky view is plus). As I was drawn to figure skating since 2010, my background is lacking in history and legends of figure skating and your posts are very enlightening.

Hanyu in his SP already shows the ability to outskate him, though? He uses his edges in even more dynamic ways. Spread eagle into 3Axel with speed and right into a spread eagle again on the landing and holding it for a long time. When will Patrick ever?

Brian Boitano already did it as well, all the way back in 1988 - http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x1onggt_brian-boitano-1988-calgary-long-program_sport. THAT is wonderful skating skills, in service of complete choreography and interpretation. Chan hasn't yet shown the ability to deliver a LP like that. Even in terms of purely the usage of the skates, the way Patrick moves tends to be the same from program to program. He doesn't move his skates directly in relation to the beat and character of the music, rather in the same kind of way that is comfortable to him. Yes, it's phenomenal edge quality and control and all that, but it's not fully skating a PROGRAM. It's not using the blades to become one with the music.

These are the details that need to be assessed better by the judges and it's something that Patrick could perhaps improve on. Could he ever give a performance like this, for example - Matt Savoie, The Mission? Who knows, maybe 2 years from now we'll see Patrick's skating and look back and say "wow, his programs in the past weren't as dynamic and emotional as this." But how can he ever improve when everyone is telling him he's already perfect in those areas?

I think this is the best Patrick has ever skated - 2010 Worlds SP. It's the most his skating has ever moved as a choreographic whole and it really is a glorious, stunning piece of work. There are still a couple sticky points I have with that program - the footwork rules demanded more movement than was necessary for the straightline step sequence (although the footwork sequences in this program, particularly the circular, are SO much better than the ones skaters have to do now), and the spins are a bit too repetitive with all those catch-leg sit positions and edge changes, but this is a very strong model of CoP skating and what Patrick can do.

I agree Yuzu's SP is a masterpiece and Patrick should be really afraid of what Yuzu can do.

Patrick does not seem to pick a character driven piece of music for a long time. But I believe he showed skating to various beats; Jazz in SP, Classic in LP here. And every skater including Patrick should be aware not to settle in the same kind of way that is comfortable to him. Patrick's choice of music tends to be mellow, abstract since he claims to choose the artistic route of figure skating. Your example of 2010 SP indeed shows very sharp and angular passionate side of him. And I agree. That is one of the best performance the way you explained.

It's bad for the sport when something like that is receiving 10's for choreography and interpretation and when spins like that are getting +2's. How will anyone ever have incentive to spin like Natalie Krieg, or work an a spread eagle sequence as epic as Boitano's or body slide like Yagudin's in Gladiator, or come up with as interesting of arm movements as Lambiel, or as musical a step sequence as Petra Barna or Lambiel, or as refined of body positions as John Curry, or as creative of movement as Cranston or Beacom. Patrick Chan's skating is not a model of perfection in every area and the scores need to reflect it.

It has been so long that the scores give up to be an absolute measurement across the competitions of the season not to mention the all time legends'. I know this is not encouraging to develop skaters' ability to the max. However, the current skaters are not blind and capable of achieving more. And after I see John Curry's skating, everyone's port de bras looks so banal and has a plenty of room to improve!

And if you can't see that Chan is definitely just going through the motions with that pasted-on choreography where he lifts his arms up and *tries* to artistically drop them in a sharp manner one at a time, then I think your taste is just bad. He's not moving like that because the music is running through him and he feels compelled to do it, as you will see from Takahashi, Lambiel, or many others. He's just doing it because that's what the choreographer told him to do. It is a lack of real interpretation. He deserves a 10 for Skating Skills but not any other component. He shouldn't even be in the 9's for Interpretation, nor Transitions for that program actually. The exit out of the 3Loop is brilliant and he covers the ice so well throughout, but what actual inbetweens are happening in this program? It's not as difficult as the scores he received would lead someone to believe.

Isn't that the part where he pauses after camel spin? I have to agree. these arms could be better. But when I saw his feet at that moment, they were moving just as Chopin might have approved. His port de bras are not ideal and doesn't up to his skating skill. But, he never gave up his arm position. He is always aware of his arms and does not raise/drop aimlessly. Although they might not as aesthetically controlled as John Curry's, they are controlled. My favorite parts were the pose right after 3loop and the ending pose. If he kept every moment up to that level and beyond, it will be phenomenal. After all he is training his quadruple jumps with a video of THE Neureyev brought by his coach (specialized in dance). I am sure he is watching more than the jumps in that video and committed to train to improve his artistic sides continuously.

sorry for the long post.

 

[Blades of Passion]

ARTISTIC maturity. ARTISTIC maturity. It's not about how old the performer is.

Of course, but I don't think Chan displays "artistic maturity" in the way people are making it sound. He did a great performance here, filled with amazing basic skating, complete cleanness of execution, lots of big jumps, good posture, and confidence throughout. Those things aren't entirely artistry, though. Artistry is about the expression of ideas and feeling.

How is the sharp manner of Chan's hands any less genuine or any more "just-going-through-my-choreography" than Hanyu *trying* to artistically stretch out his arms and hands dramatically on his Ina Bauer to match the music (especially when his arms are rather lax throughout the second half)? Or any less "choreographed" than the section of Four Seasons where Lambiel just stands there and moves his hands around abstractly.

Because it's about the way they do it. The intent and emotion they express via the timing of those movements, nuances of their arms, hands, posture, and face. Chan can not move his arms and hands like Lambiel, LOL, nor does he seem to put his entire body into the motion the way Hanyu does on some of his movements. It's too anachronistic of a movement when looking at the program as a whole. It's also not good with the music, the notes aren't sharp enough for that movement to go with them.

 

[Li'Kitsu]

The context was that judges (at least in this particular competition) are cracking down on PCS more. In the past, a program with several falls would get the PCS you saw at CoC for Hanyu or Worlds 2013 for Chan. Now it's becoming more apparent that judges will give PCS scores and wins to cleaner performances (see: Medvedeva), and not just performances executed by putatively "artistic"/more popular skaters. It's why Max was able to win Skate America, and one of the reasons Chan defeated Hanyu here (although in this case, Chan and Hanyu are both viewed as artistic).

The judges aren't cracking down in PCS in the ladies event at all - what are you watching? especially Medvedeva got 67+ in PCS with a fall - more than what a lot of 'top tier' skaters got for clean skates until recently.
And if the judges were 'cracking down' on PCS because of falls, how did Chan get 45+ PCS in the SP despite his fall? Want to tell him he would have gotten a new personal best PCS without, despite the Lutz error and finishing behind the music?

ARTISTIC maturity. ARTISTIC maturity. It's not about how old the performer is.

That's... not any better. For me, you just replaced one empty term with another one consisting of one more word.
What really annoys me about this whole 'maturity' stick is how it's mostly used as a filler to basically say 'I like that better, so I'll use an intelligent sounding word nobody can really object to - and tada: I'm right'. What please is maturity in the artistic sense? And even worse: why is it so much better than other 'styles' or qualities? I'd take someone with the wild abandon, carelessness and raw emotions to draw me in, get me excited and bring me to tears even with bad posture or sloppiness here and there (=not mature) over someone with elegance and perfect posture, who finishes off his movements (=probably qualities of being 'mature'?), but no expression throughout. But hey, the last one is such a sign of maturity, other qualities are invalid.