2015 Skate Canada Mens Free Skate

[4everchan]

What did I run away from? I wasn't directing that portion of the comment towards krispy and I"m sorry if they were mistaken. Patrick's fans take things out of hand and over the top. I'm not vicious. I don't like vicious.

Uh... You just referred to Max as having "absolutely no choreography, no transitions, manufactured and fake interpretation".... And referred to his programs as having the "bare minimum" and being "mediocre".

CSG was simply showing that you are not making any sense... if you don't like vicious, there's no need to belittle a guy who is actually GP winner. There's a difference between having favourites and hating everyone else...

 

[Mathman]

Eh, sounds like traditional attitude of machismo here. Patrick will always be more stout/muscular than Hanyu and look "more manly". His style of skating shouldn't be upheld as the one and only best.

It's more about artistic maturity than being stout. I have no doubt that Hanyu, Rippon and the others are capable of displaying artistic maturity, but in this competition, they didn't.

Yes, I did. I clearly expressed my thoughts about him. Most people don't like clarity though.

You were clear, but, yeah, a little bit vicious.

No reason to use the prodigious talent of Hanyu as a cudgel to beat up on Max Aaron, of all people!

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Hanyu didn't give it to Chan, the dumb scoring system did via Hanyu receiving 0 points for his combination in the SP. If Hanyu had won the SP, as he deserved to, then the two of them would have been looked at in a different light in the LP.

Last time I checked, these guys are all skating under the same system. A system that also made Chan not get credited any points for his 2Lz, mind you. Had Chan doubled his quad and did a 3Z+2T he would have suffered the same problem. Hanyu is more than experienced enough to know that if he doubles a quad, he shouldn't do a double toe in his combo. These are rules everybody has to adhere to, whether we think they are stupid or not.

Hanyu's combo wouldn't have made a difference to the overall result (especially given that the GOE should have been 0 at best with the wonky lutz).

Hanyu lost the SP - and indeed the competition - by doubling his quad (cost him about 12-13 points). Not because the system - which' rules were in place before he stepped out on the ice - denied him points for a 3-2 combo which wouldn't have made a difference (even if he was credited for just the lutz and not the repeated 2T, he still would have been behind Murakami).

And that you would suggest Hanyu - with a doubled quad and wonky 3-2 combo - deserved to be leading the SP over somebody like Murakami (who had a decent quad attempt, a nice 3A, the hardest 3-3 combo, and a good program) says a lot.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Yes, I did. I clearly expressed my thoughts about him. Most people don't like clarity though.

If your boss/coworker ever tried to bring you down saying that you were a mediocre worker who does the bare minimum -- and yet you put your hardest effort in, worked feverishly to improve, and actually showed technical proficiency and consistency in your work while others faltered, you wouldn't consider their words to be a vicious assessment of you?

 

[Meoima]

It's becoming quite difficult to follow your logic. You are using Miki as an example because you thought her SS was great on TV but not when you saw her live. Great. Could it have been that Miki's SS was never that great, and you couldn't see that on TV in the first place? I'm using Miki as an example because well, it was your example. Btw I can appreciate some aspects of Miki's skating.

you think I don't like Miki? I didn't mean that. I meant she looked BETTER in person, not worse.

I'm not denying the obvious benefits of live viewing, especially when it comes to speed and ice coverage. Like I said, I have seen skating live, too. But my point is lack of live viewing experience should not be some sort of final card to dismiss some aspects of SS assessment, without an attempt to back it up, as I cannot see you doing other than saying that you know many people and that you are a classical music expert (which is great).

I am simply saying, watching live it's much difference. Of course you can somewhat sense the "quality" from tivi screen, but the final judgment should only be taken while watching live.

And I am not a classical music expert, I am saying FS is the same as classical music, you listen to artist from Hi-end video, you think they're great. But listen to them live it's entire different experience.

And it has been how long since you haven't watched Yuzuru live? Just saying. I don't even compare Yuzuru to Patrick. I am saying watching Yuzuru live now is obviously much different than watching him live in.. 2012 or 2013.

Sorry I'm confused again as I never mentioned Nam anywhere.

When you said Yuzuru should just get 7s for PCS, that's the same as Nam's score.

 

[MaxSwagg]

If your boss/coworker ever tried to bring you down saying that you were a mediocre worker who does the bare minimum -- and yet you put your hardest effort in, worked feverishly to improve, and actually showed technical proficiency and consistency in your work while others faltered, you wouldn't consider their words to be a vicious assessment of you?

Yes, no, doesn't matter. If that's their assessment - and they give a detailed explanation about why they think this - no, it's not vicious. Obviously I'm not working hard enough. Anyway, I don't hate Max. I don't even know him. I've never said anything personal about him. I expressly acknowledge that he improved and the program wasn't a bad effort. I just think credit should be given where credit is due and vice versa. Like this goofy-minded person who thinks Yuzuru deserves components on the level of Nam...or worse. That is just absolutely absurd and fatuous.

 

[Mathman]

And this is oh so petty but his eyes drive me nuts.

Yes, it is petty, because his eye condition was caused by a childhood accident.

 

[xibsuarz]

Please, let's not bicker.
Towards the end of these threads, the same opinions are re-hashed by a few posters over and over. Let's break the cycle.

Who had your favorite Costume of the guys at the FS?
Adam's Red Shirt?
Chan's White Noise Shirt?
Yuzu's Blinged-Out Shirt?
Murakami?

Mmmm, Adam's shirt was different but it clashed too much with his hair (for me), Yuzuru finally fitted the sides of his SP costume and the golden parts look better, but I've liked that costume since last season. Patrick's was just a little too simple for my taste, but it fits the style of his program, and I really liked Dice's FS costume! I have a thing for the uneven lines in it

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

I think Polina is just trolling us now. She's kicking it with Nam....talking about going to Russia....and using the emoji right after it's freshly introduced on GS.

Cool to see the skaters getting along so well.

https://instagram.com/p/9jx0KQkjYR/

 

[Violet Bliss]

I think Polina is just trolling us now. She's kicking it with Nam....talking about going to Russia....and using the emoji right after it's freshly introduced on GS.

Cool to see the skaters getting along so well.

https://instagram.com/p/9jx0KQkjYR/

Well, they both were not invited to perform at the Gala.

I wonder who took the pictures.

 

[Meoima]

Yes, no, doesn't matter. If that's their assessment - and they give a detailed explanation about why they think this - no, it's not vicious. Obviously I'm not working hard enough. Anyway, I don't hate Max. I don't even know him. I've never said anything personal about him. I expressly acknowledge that he improved and the program wasn't a bad effort. I just think credit should be given where credit is due and vice versa. Like this goofy-minded person who thinks Yuzuru deserves components on the level of Nam...or worse. That is just absolutely absurd and fatuous.

Yes that's my issue as well.

 

[Skater Boy]

Hanyu didn't give it to Chan, the dumb scoring system did via Hanyu receiving 0 points for his combination in the SP. If Hanyu had won the SP, as he deserved to, then the two of them would have been looked at in a different light in the LP. Instead, there was a feeling of Hanyu "trying to catch-up" after the SP. Not that such a thing should influence the judging anyway, but of course it did. Although, Chan's skating is generally overscored anyway, +2's GOE constantly handed to him for +1 quality elements. Even when messing up in the SP he still got plenty of unwarranted GOE for his spins there, plus level credit for the last position of his flying sit in both programs, even though it doesn't deserve credit as a difficult variation.



Eh, sounds like traditional attitude of machismo here. Patrick will always be more stout/muscular than Hanyu and look "more manly". His style of skating shouldn't be upheld as the one and only best.



Hanyu in his SP already shows the ability to outskate him, though? He uses his edges in even more dynamic ways. Spread eagle into 3Axel with speed and right into a spread eagle again on the landing and holding it for a long time. When will Patrick ever?

Brian Boitano already did it as well, all the way back in 1988 - http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x1onggt_brian-boitano-1988-calgary-long-program_sport. THAT is wonderful skating skills, in service of complete choreography and interpretation. Chan hasn't yet shown the ability to deliver a LP like that. Even in terms of purely the usage of the skates, the way Patrick moves tends to be the same from program to program. He doesn't move his skates directly in relation to the beat and character of the music, rather in the same kind of way that is comfortable to him. Yes, it's phenomenal edge quality and control and all that, but it's not fully skating a PROGRAM. It's not using the blades to become one with the music.

These are the details that need to be assessed better by the judges and it's something that Patrick could perhaps improve on. Could he ever give a performance like this, for example - Matt Savoie, The Mission? Who knows, maybe 2 years from now we'll see Patrick's skating and look back and say "wow, his programs in the past weren't as dynamic and emotional as this." But how can he ever improve when everyone is telling him he's already perfect in those areas?

I think this is the best Patrick has ever skated - 2010 Worlds SP. It's the most his skating has ever moved as a choreographic whole and it really is a glorious, stunning piece of work. There are still a couple sticky points I have with that program - the footwork rules demanded more movement than was necessary for the straightline step sequence (although the footwork sequences in this program, particularly the circular, are SO much better than the ones skaters have to do now), and the spins are a bit too repetitive with all those catch-leg sit positions and edge changes, but this is a very strong model of CoP skating and what Patrick can do.

I have to disagree. Hanyu's LP is kind of choreographically a mess, weak and lacks direction - yes it could get better and will undoubtedly. But this LP is not so magical. It doesn't have the cohesion and the skating skills are not there nor the sublimeness the smoothiness though it coudhappe it eally seems to just miss th emark It doesn't grab you I think it would grab true Hanyu fans but to the average joe or Josephine it had some big tricks. For all the criticism of Chan and I agree he may be overmarked BUT NOT AS MUCH AS HANYU ESPECIALLY PCS. Look at Hanyu's first quad -how in the heck did he get plus 3 goe's when he struggled with the landing. And while his entries intot the triple axels are glorious the htoher jumps are kind of meh and onething he doesn't hve are those amazing edges. I will grant he has better costumes. Chan is like Scotty Hamilton as to costumes they wanted something athletic, manly and practical and weren't so concerned with the look - good or bad. Although unlike Scotty at least Chan looks like he still is one of the best free skaters like Hanyu, fernade and Ten (remember scotty by the end was hanging on to gold by the skin of his school figures but he was decimated by brian orser in the end. In the end, right now Hanyu has the upper hand because of technical ability. chan to compete has to win the sp and skate clean the lp to have a real chance or hope hanyu makes more errors. It is kind of sad we can only have one ogm winner because these two deserve it - they are spectacular, special, unique and quality Sorry to fans of Denis ten, Javier, Plushy and the rest. They are good maybe great skaters but not extraordinary like Hanyu and Chan for different reasons.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

It's more about artistic maturity than being stout. I have no doubt that Hanyu, Rippon and the others are capable of displaying artistic maturity, but in this competition, they didn't.



You were clear, but, yeah, a little bit vicious.

No reason to use the prodigious talent of Hanyu as a cudgel to beat up on Max Aaron, of all people!

Agreed on all counts. Hanyu's skating is more refined than in the past but he still exudes a youth and there is a greater sense of sophistication and maturity in Patrick's presentation. Even his SP there's a coolness about it when it could very easily turn into campy, pantomiming.

And yeah that's exactly what people are doing comparing Hanyu to Aaron in terms of artistry in an attempt to trivialize the legitimacy of Aaron's win at Skate America.

Like, you just KNOW that Jin will put out a four quad sensational FS at his GP events and people will immediately bash it for lacking the sophistication and artistry of Hanyu/Ten/Chan.

 

[Meoima]

@Skater Boy, what are you thinking, Yuzuru never got +3 for his quad, not ever. The only one who got it was Patrick at Sochi.

And please I am tired of "Hanyu doesn't have good edge" because he has good edge and many people who have watched him live at SC in both practice and competitions have confirmed that. There is practice videos they don't fake it. Yes Patrick is the best at SS ever or whatsoever, but I am tired of some certain people keep saying "Hanyu has sloppy edge" or "Hanyu should just get 7s" while in fact he is one of the best at SS right now on the field. Saying "Hanyu has meh SS" is like saying the majority of male skaters does not know how to skate. :dumb:

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Hanyu's edges are quite good. Definitely not the depth/quality of Chan but what I like is that Hanyu uses edges effectively in his programs. There are some moments that he rushes though and doesn't quite hit his intended edge (you can see it particularly in the footwork section).

 

[xibsuarz]

Like, you just KNOW that Jin will put out a four quad sensational FS at his GP events and people will immediately bash it for lacking the sophistication and artistry of Hanyu/Ten/Chan.

Sorry to interrupt your long and heated discussion, but is Boyang really going for a four quad FS?! :eekn: I thought it would be 3, but If he does, COC could be much less predictable than what I thought.

 

[Blades of Passion]

Last time I checked, these guys are all skating under the same system. Had Chan doubled his quad and did a 3Z+2T he would have suffered the same problem. Hanyu is more than experienced enough to know that if he doubles a quad, he shouldn't do a double toe in his combo. These are rules everybody has to adhere to, whether we think they are stupid or not.

The RULE is that you can't repeat a jump in the SP. Hanyu's first 2T was already an invalid element. It didn't exist. Therefore, his 3Lutz+2Toe should have been credited.

If Hanyu had done a single toeloop or no jump at all, his 3Lutz+2Toe would have been credited by the computer. I'm not going to just go along with the absolute stupidity of it all. That is not how skating is judged, it's not what ANYONE wants. It exists only because of the way the computer system is coded, because of the ISU being so incompetent and lazy to not fix a glitch in the system that EVERYONE knows is wrong.

And that you would suggest Hanyu - with a doubled quad and wonky 3-2 combo - deserved to be leading the SP over somebody like Murakami (who had a decent quad attempt, a nice 3A, the hardest 3-3 combo, and a good program) says a lot.

Murakami didn't have a decent quad attempt at all. It was underrotated (but not called for it), he stepped out and put hands down on the ice, which is already a -3 GOE right there, AND he had no preceding steps before it at all, which is required for the SP and deserves a big deduction (but can't be given any further deduction in the tech score than the -3 the jump already deserved). He didn't have a good program either. The spins and footwork were all weak, his skating was relatively slow and superficial.

I love how you try to make it sound like I am unreasonable for thinking Hanyu should have won the SP when he factually WOULD have if his combo was rightfully credited. The judges' scores would have put him there. 99% of the time you sit there agreeing with "the judges", even though you have no idea if the judges actually had differing opinions, but now you suddenly don't? Right.

 

[satine]

Like, you just KNOW that Jin will put out a four quad sensational FS at his GP events and people will immediately bash it for lacking the sophistication and artistry of Hanyu/Ten/Chan.

Jin is a sensational jumper & I can not wait for his GP performances. That being said, while I don't condone bashing him for his lack of presentation, I'll have to agree with the critique if he is still performing like he was at last Junior Worlds. Jumps are crucial in FS, but they are not the only thing.

 

[Franklin99]

I think Polina is just trolling us now. She's kicking it with Nam....talking about going to Russia....and using the emoji right after it's freshly introduced on GS.

Cool to see the skaters getting along so well.

https://instagram.com/p/9jx0KQkjYR/

 

[Blades of Passion]

I have to disagree. Hanyu's LP is kind of choreographically a mess, weak and lacks direction - yes it could get better and will undoubtedly. But this LP is not so magical. It doesn't have the cohesion and the skating skills are not there

How are the skating skills not there? They definitely are. I very much disagree about it lacking cohesion. His movements are painting a detailed picture and very much in a measured spirit. Nothing in the choreography is blasted and the movements are angular throughout. Notice how the choreography incorporates numerous spread eagle/"frog" positions throughout that are always on a diagonal across the rink and never held out for grandiosity.

He was obviously very tired and focused on doing the jumps in the second half of the program, that definitely hurt his presentation and made the choreography limper. I do have a couple criticisms of the program, starting with the placement of the first Triple Axel which isn't good. That is a slower, remorseful section of music and it would be better if he skated to it all and provided more nuance, rather than jumping. The jump would be better 8 seconds later in the program (the 3-jump combo would actually be perfect right there). The other thing I think could be improved is the pattern of the choreography step sequence, it doesn't go far enough the other end of the rink. The music is moving forward, as if he is on a journey, and he needs to go with it fulfill that trek. He should start the sequence by quickly moving straight across the rink, almost to the other end, and then curve back around to do the hydroblade towards the center (so it would be going in the opposite direction instead, same the the ina bauer he later does, as the rest of the sequence after the hydroblade should continue around in an oval pattern back to where he started).

Look at Hanyu's first quad -how in the heck did he get plus 3 goe's when he struggled with the landing.

Hanyu's first quad was massive, great flow in and out, no question on the rotation, and firmly controlled with a clear exiting position. He had the smallest amount of extra knee bend on the landing to control it but that is fine. It definitely deserved +2 GOE. One judge gave it +3, that's excessive, but it didn't count and Hanyu ended up received a bit less than +2 GOE overall anyway. So, actually, he was slightly underscored on that element.

Hanyu's skating is more refined than in the past but he still exudes a youth and there is a greater sense of sophistication and maturity in Patrick's presentation.

LOL, what useless adjectives. This is like saying people who drink martinis and drive bentleys are more sophisticated individuals. So what if Hanyu exudes youth? That doesn't make someone less capable of a performer. Adele Exarchopoulos at 19 years old gave one of the most profound performances of all time in Blue Is the Warmest Color.

Hanyu pays more attention to his music than Patrick does. Perhaps you missed it, but Patrick himself said he just performed on autopilot out there. Training is obviously super important, so it's not bad that someone is able to go through the motions perfectly in their performance, but there's an extra level of connection missing. And in these particular performances, Chan did overall interpret the music better than Hanyu, because he movements were more clear and unflinching throughout. However, there are little moments where Hanyu still shows he's more INTO it than Chan is.